Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment, 2012

[nickrey]

I like PedroG's concept of having the rack above the water and hanging the pouches off that (think of the pouches as coathangers and the rack as the rail inside your wardrobe). This avoids the issue of having a rack that doesn't rust in the water.

[jmolinari]

I like PedroG's concept of having the rack above the water and hanging the pouches off that (think of the pouches as coathangers and the rack as the rail inside your wardrobe). This avoids the issue of having a rack that doesn't rust in the water.

MY concern with that method is that the whole bag is not under water, meaning that if there was any of the meat that rubbed on an area of the bag that doesn't end up underwater and you go for a super long cook time, it's possible that any bacteria will multiple and recontaminate your now pasteurized meat.

I always make sure the bags are fully submerged.

[jmolinari]

Thanks- do you happen to know the dimensions of the pouch rack you linked? I can't find the dimensions listed anywhere.

In case anyone else looks for the dimensions of the pouch rack is 7x7x7, as per the cs rep.

I was just gonna say it's 6.5x6.5x6.75....

[nickrey]

I like PedroG's concept of having the rack above the water and hanging the pouches off that (think of the pouches as coathangers and the rack as the rail inside your wardrobe). This avoids the issue of having a rack that doesn't rust in the water.

MY concern with that method is that the whole bag is not under water, meaning that if there was any of the meat that rubbed on an area of the bag that doesn't end up underwater and you go for a super long cook time, it's possible that any bacteria will multiple and recontaminate your now pasteurized meat.

I always make sure the bags are fully submerged.

Like with my comment on storing liquid in bags, you leave a long tail. I believe Pedro also seals marbles in the bags to make sure they keep submerged.

[m61376]

Thanks- do you happen to know the dimensions of the pouch rack you linked? I can't find the dimensions listed anywhere.

In case anyone else looks for the dimensions of the pouch rack is 7x7x7, as per the cs rep.

I was just gonna say it's 6.5x6.5x6.75....

Thanks- I like your more exact dimensions, because the 7x7x7 that I was told would be a little tight and I think the extra little space will make the difference.

[jmolinari]

I like PedroG's concept of having the rack above the water and hanging the pouches off that (think of the pouches as coathangers and the rack as the rail inside your wardrobe). This avoids the issue of having a rack that doesn't rust in the water.

MY concern with that method is that the whole bag is not under water, meaning that if there was any of the meat that rubbed on an area of the bag that doesn't end up underwater and you go for a super long cook time, it's possible that any bacteria will multiple and recontaminate your now pasteurized meat.

I always make sure the bags are fully submerged.

Like with my comment on storing liquid in bags, you leave a long tail. I believe Pedro also seals marbles in the bags to make sure they keep submerged.

I thought Pedro's hanger method the top of the bag is out of the water hanging from a hanger?

[nickrey]

I thought Pedro's hanger method the top of the bag is out of the water hanging from a hanger?

Just make that the seal is below the water line. It's no different from putting them in a rack.

Edited January 28, 2012 by nickrey (log)

[PedroG]

I like PedroG's concept of having the rack above the water and hanging the pouches off that (think of the pouches as coathangers and the rack as the rail inside your wardrobe). This avoids the issue of having a rack that doesn't rust in the water.

MY concern with that method is that the whole bag is not under water, meaning that if there was any of the meat that rubbed on an area of the bag that doesn't end up underwater and you go for a super long cook time, it's possible that any bacteria will multiple and recontaminate your now pasteurized meat.

I always make sure the bags are fully submerged.

Like with my comment on storing liquid in bags, you leave a long tail. I believe Pedro also seals marbles in the bags to make sure they keep submerged.

I thought Pedro's hanger method the top of the bag is out of the water hanging from a hanger?

Adjust the geometry of your skewer and the filling level of the pot so that the whole bag or at least the seal is sure to be under water even with some evaporation when cooking for 48-72h. I bend my skewers from 3mm stainless steel wire, and with a file or rasp I make a sharp spearhead allowing easy piercing of the bag.

[ChrisZ]

I had my first sous vide fail today, which has given me a bit of thinking to do. I've always thought I was pretty careful with hygiene but a pork belly that was in the bath for 3 days ended up puffing up like a balloon, and I have no doubt that if the bag had burst the smell would have been horrid.

I've made several pork bellies before and they've been great, I thought I had my technique down pat. I'm trying to figure out where the meat got contaminated and why it wasn't pasteurised. I'm wondering if it was during the brining? I use an equilibrium brine (from MC, 3.168) and leave the meat in there for a few days. The other potential culprits are the flavourings I added - the only ones I can definitely remember adding are sherry, soy sauce and apple juice, but I might have thrown a few herbs in there too.

This is what I've been doing:

- Firstly I measure out the brine solution. I don't boil the brine or otherwise pasteurise it (which might be a mistake).

- I blanch the meat in boiling water. I've mentioned on the forum before that I copy the

.

- I leave the meat to brine for a few days (in the fridge). I always use the weaker equilibrium brine (total concentration of 1% salt, .4% sugar) - not sure if this would help or hinder any bacteria.

- Then I sear the meat on all sides in a hot pan. Again - I would assume that this kills any surface bacteria.

- It's into a vacuum bag with a small amount of flavourings, and cooked for 3 days (72 hours) at 58 degrees C.

I've done a number of pork bellies this way and they've all been awesome- they've all been pretty small, around 500g, so it's not like I have a huge chunk of meat that takes hours to come up to temperature. I was really shocked to see the bloated bag this morning, especially as I think it only started to blow up 2 days into the cooking. I have two digital thermometers that agree with the temperature of the water bath (just a simple rice cooker / temp controller combo), so although it's a budget setup it's accurate. I don't think it's a true PID but the temperature swings are only about 1 degree either way- basically I'm not worried about a problem with my rig.

The main things that worries me is that I thought that 58 degrees would be hot enough to pasteurise the meat but I'm obviously wrong, and also that I didn't see anything wrong for 2 days. I'd like to think that if I got hungry after 48 hours instead of waiting for 72 I would've noticed a bad smell, but I hate the thought of eating something unsafe.

Here's some of my thoughts -

- I should boil the brine (and cool it) before soaking the meat in it.

- I should blanch the meat again after brining.

- any flavourings that I add to the bag should also be boiled & cooled first.

How have others reacted to results that are obviously unsafe to eat?

I'd appreciate any input and advice on what could have gone wrong or what I can do better...

-Chris

[Robert Jueneman]

I had my first sous vide fail today, which has given me a bit of thinking to do. I've always thought I was pretty careful with hygiene but a pork belly that was in the bath for 3 days ended up puffing up like a balloon, and I have no doubt that if the bag had burst the smell would have been horrid.

I've made several pork bellies before and they've been great, I thought I had my technique down pat. I'm trying to figure out where the meat got contaminated and why it wasn't pasteurised. I'm wondering if it was during the brining? I use an equilibrium brine (from MC, 3.168) and leave the meat in there for a few days. The other potential culprits are the flavourings I added - the only ones I can definitely remember adding are sherry, soy sauce and apple juice, but I might have thrown a few herbs in there too.

This is what I've been doing:

- Firstly I measure out the brine solution. I don't boil the brine or otherwise pasteurise it (which might be a mistake).

- I blanch the meat in boiling water. I've mentioned on the forum before that I copy the

.

- I leave the meat to brine for a few days (in the fridge). I always use the weaker equilibrium brine (total concentration of 1% salt, .4% sugar) - not sure if this would help or hinder any bacteria.

- Then I sear the meat on all sides in a hot pan. Again - I would assume that this kills any surface bacteria.

- It's into a vacuum bag with a small amount of flavourings, and cooked for 3 days (72 hours) at 58 degrees C.

I've done a number of pork bellies this way and they've all been awesome- they've all been pretty small, around 500g, so it's not like I have a huge chunk of meat that takes hours to come up to temperature. I was really shocked to see the bloated bag this morning, especially as I think it only started to blow up 2 days into the cooking. I have two digital thermometers that agree with the temperature of the water bath (just a simple rice cooker / temp controller combo), so although it's a budget setup it's accurate. I don't think it's a true PID but the temperature swings are only about 1 degree either way- basically I'm not worried about a problem with my rig.

The main things that worries me is that I thought that 58 degrees would be hot enough to pasteurise the meat but I'm obviously wrong, and also that I didn't see anything wrong for 2 days. I'd like to think that if I got hungry after 48 hours instead of waiting for 72 I would've noticed a bad smell, but I hate the thought of eating something unsafe.

Here's some of my thoughts -

- I should boil the brine (and cool it) before soaking the meat in it.

- I should blanch the meat again after brining.

- any flavourings that I add to the bag should also be boiled & cooled first.

How have others reacted to results that are obviously unsafe to eat?

I'd appreciate any input and advice on what could have gone wrong or what I can do better...

-Chris

Chris, I'm not an expert in food safety, but here is my understanding. Maybe Douglas Baldwin can add something.

First of all, 58C is certainly enough to pasteurize the meat. 55C is enough, assuming an accurate thermometer. But although pasteurization kills all of the potentially deadly pathogens, my understanding is that it doesn't necessarily kill all SPOILAGE bacteria! So even if the bag swelled up, and smelled absolutely horrible, it wouldn't necessarily have been unsafe to eat, although I don't think any of us would be brave enough to find out. (BTW, I had a similar problem once with beef cheeks.)

Now, where could any spoilage bacteria have come from?

Well, potentially it could have come from the pork belly itself. There is a lot we don't know about the sterility of the interior of meat -- it is generally assumed to be sterile, but if the animal was sick, or a dirty knife was used to slaughter it, some nasties could have potentially gotten in the blood and circulated, however briefly. It obviously doesn't happen often.

The brining step is another possibility, especially if you added dry spices that haven't been pasteurized. So adding all of the ingredients to the brine and then boiling it before using it would be a good precaution.

You are already being quite conservative, with the blanching, and then the pre-searing. I would have certainly thought that the searing would be sufficient to kill even any spoilage bacteria, UNLESS the brining carried it deeper into the meat, somehow.

Leaving the meat in the brine for several days seems somewhat suspect, to me. Is such a long time really necessary? I'm assuming it was just sitting in a pan, as opposed to having been bagged, so it's possible that some spoilage bacteria might have been circulating in your fridge.

Did you chill the meat after searing it, before bagging it? If not, the hot juices could cause the bag to swell, at least enough to float.

Finally, although you say that you are comfortable with your SV setup, I've seen temperature probes fail, even on commercial rigs. I would suggest that your fire it up and check the temperature, and if you can stand to let it go for 72 hours, check it again.

One last thing -- you said the pork belly ended up puffing up; like a balloon. I'm assuming you meant the bag puffed up, and not the meat itself?

Bob

[Toufas]

Will the sous vide supreme rack fit inside a 290 x 265 x 305mm container?

[LoftyNotions]

The SVS rack measures approximately 170mm X 160 MM by 160 MM.

HTH,

Larry

[Todd in Chicago]

Anyone use their SousVide a lot more than they thought they would? My SVS no longer travels from my countertop to the cabinet it was originally supposed to be stored in. It is now a permanent fixture on my countertop and probably gets used every other day. For better or worse, I use my SVS for probably about 80% of my cooking. I don't think I intended it to be that way, I think the quality of the end result + the convenience of "cook-chill-freeze-reheat" has simply been too much to deny. The SVS with the combination of a good vacuum sealer (I use the VacMaster VP112) has really changed much of my approach to most of my meals.

Anyone else chime in on this?

Todd in Chicago

Edited January 30, 2012 by Todd in Chicago (log)

[Paul Kierstead]

Yup I SV more then I expected to, indeed to the point where I suspect my own motives. I also use my Vac pack machine (VP210) much more then I expected, to the point where I no longer were at all about buying all those multiple sizes of 1000 bags...

[Toufas]

Paul way to tease us with your chamber sealer!

I miss the days when I was working in big kitchens and we had a chamber sealer (or 2)

Hopefully my next place will have some sv gear.

[ChrisZ]

Chris, I'm not an expert in food safety, but here is my understanding. Maybe Douglas Baldwin can add something.

Thanks so much, you've already helped me a great deal and introduced me to the notion of 'spoilage bacteria'.

You are already being quite conservative, with the blanching, and then the pre-searing. I would have certainly thought that the searing would be sufficient to kill even any spoilage bacteria, UNLESS the brining carried it deeper into the meat, somehow.

Leaving the meat in the brine for several days seems somewhat suspect, to me. Is such a long time really necessary?

It's not necessary, but it suits my erratic nature :-) My understanding of brining is that if I use a higher concentration - such as 8% - then I need to calculate exactly how long to leave the meat in, or else it will start to cure, or I'll need to allow time after brining for the salt to redistribute. The reason I use an equilibrium brine is because I'm not that organised, and my understanding is that once everything comes into equilibrium then the meat doesn't continue on to begin curing, and a few days here or there won't make a difference.

FWIW I've been brining in tupperware, with a full-to-the-brim container. The lid isn't 100% airtight, but it's easier than using a foodmaster to vacuum bag a big sack of liquid. It's also easier to measure out quantities. There's very little air in there, and the meat is totally submerged.

The searing isn't something I normally do, it was an experiment. I usually sear after sous-vide, but I thought I'd try searing before - to see if those maillard flavours made a difference. Although i didn't get to find out, it is one of the reasons I was shocked to see contamination - as all I wanted was a brown crust I made sure the pan was REALLY hot and the pork was seared on all 6 sides. I really can't see any surface bacteria surviving that. But I was only thinking of taste, not hygiene at that point.

One last thing -- you said the pork belly ended up puffing up; like a balloon. I'm assuming you meant the bag puffed up, and not the meat itself?

Yep, the bag. It's become second nature for me to double-seal both edges and I'm really glad I did! The bag was so tight I was worried it would pop just by being touched, but it held together and I could only detect the very faintest smell. But that was enough to know it was bad...

It also occurred to me that maybe the apple juice I used fermented, possibly given a helping hand by the slug of cheap & cheerful sherry I also added.

But despite the disappointment it has been a very valuable learning experience and I really appreciate your input.

Cheers.

[PedroG]

. . .

It also occurred to me that maybe the apple juice I used fermented, possibly given a helping hand by the slug of cheap & cheerful sherry I also added.

. . . .

See www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Marinating_Tenderizing_and_Brining:

If the alcohol is not cooked off before marinating, some of it will change phase from liquid to vapor while in the bag and cause the meat to cook unevenly. Simply cooking off the alcohol before marinating easily solves this problem.

[mmille24]

Going to try to make chicken stock tonight using my PID controller and my very large rice cooker. The main reasoning is I don't have any other pot that comes close to it's size and like the idea of being able to control the 'simmer.'

Going to keep the temperature around 185 F/ 85C. I don't see any reason why it won't work, but we shall see.

[slkinsey]

Its unclear to me that there is much to be gained from making meat stock using low temperature sous vide techniques. Quite the opposite, really. There is plenty to be gained from using high temperature techniques (i.e., pressure cooking). The only time it makes sense to use LT/LT sous vide techniques is when making a stock or broth where higher temperatures would be detrimental (i.e., kombu broth, certain vegetable stocks, etc.).

[mmille24]

Its unclear to me that there is much to be gained from making meat stock using low temperature sous vide techniques. Quite the opposite, really. There is plenty to be gained from using high temperature techniques (i.e., pressure cooking). The only time it makes sense to use LT/LT sous vide techniques is when making a stock or broth where higher temperatures would be detrimental (i.e., kombu broth, certain vegetable stocks, etc.).

As I mentioned, the main reasoning behind it is more because I don't own a pressure cooker or a very large stockpot. I don't really expect any benefits from using the PID controller.

[Robert Jueneman]

Its unclear to me that there is much to be gained from making meat stock using low temperature sous vide techniques. Quite the opposite, really. There is plenty to be gained from using high temperature techniques (i.e., pressure cooking). The only time it makes sense to use LT/LT sous vide techniques is when making a stock or broth where higher temperatures would be detrimental (i.e., kombu broth, certain vegetable stocks, etc.).

As I mentioned, the main reasoning behind it is more because I don't own a pressure cooker or a very large stockpot. I don't really expect any benefits from using the PID controller.

You might like to look at an article I posted on PID control of a pressure cooker for high altitude pressure cooking and stock making, at http://freshmealssolutions.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=71:high-altitude-pressure-cooking-and-stock-making&Itemid=10088.

[m61376]

Anyone use their SousVide a lot more than they thought they would? My SVS no longer travels from my countertop to the cabinet it was originally supposed to be stored in. It is now a permanent fixture on my countertop and probably gets used every other day. For better or worse, I use my SVS for probably about 80% of my cooking. I don't think I intended it to be that way, I think the quality of the end result + the convenience of "cook-chill-freeze-reheat" has simply been too much to deny. The SVS with the combination of a good vacuum sealer (I use the VacMaster VP112) has really changed much of my approach to most of my meals.

Anyone else chime in on this?

Todd in Chicago

I'm real new to this but find I am using it A LOT too. I bought an external sealer and have been using ziplocs for marinated meats. That Vacmaster VP112 has been calling out to me, but how heavy/unwieldy is it? Do you find that you really have to leave it out? I wish I had enough counter space for that, but....

[Robert Jueneman]

Anyone use their SousVide a lot more than they thought they would? My SVS no longer travels from my countertop to the cabinet it was originally supposed to be stored in. It is now a permanent fixture on my countertop and probably gets used every other day. For better or worse, I use my SVS for probably about 80% of my cooking. I don't think I intended it to be that way, I think the quality of the end result + the convenience of "cook-chill-freeze-reheat" has simply been too much to deny. The SVS with the combination of a good vacuum sealer (I use the VacMaster VP112) has really changed much of my approach to most of my meals.

Anyone else chime in on this?

Todd in Chicago

I'm real new to this but find I am using it A LOT too. I bought an external sealer and have been using ziplocs for marinated meats. That Vacmaster VP112 has been calling out to me, but how heavy/unwieldy is it? Do you find that you really have to leave it out? I wish I had enough counter space for that, but....

Just wait -- it gets worse!

I've been doing this for about four years, now, and I have two immersion circulators in use every day, and sometimes three, depending on what I'm cooking -- and that's just for the two of us! And I recently upgraded my MVS-31X chamber vacuum to the new PolyScience MV-35XP, so at present on my island countertop I have two chamber vacuums, a bottle of gaseous nitrogen for the gas fill, an Anti-Griddle, and I just ordered an Branson ultrasound unit to make starch-infused French fries. So don't complain about counter space!

(BTW, if anyone lives within 150 miles of Taos, NM and needs a chamber vacuum, I'll make you a deal on my MVS-31X. Just PM me.)

[Msk]

I use my SV rig and my vacuum sealer alot too. I just made meatloaf SV with 50% brisket and 50% chuck. Rolled into a tube, 145F for 4 hours. Really, outstanding.

I have also really gotten into cook/chill since SV reheated is such high quality.

Mike

[m61376]

I believe I cooked a mock tenderloin from Buther and Larder in Chicago - I just followed my normal for cooking tenderloin - 130 degrees F for 2 - 4 hours.

Your mileage may vary.

Todd in Chicago

Hmmm...thanks- I'm finding this all so confusing, since it really is from the shoulder and considered chuck, so I was thinking it might require 24 hours. Isn't tenderloin a much softer piece of meat to begin with so that it doesn't require the longer cooking times?

Looking further I've seen 12 hours at 131 degrees suggested for chuck tender steak (which is another name for mock tenders/shoulder tenders/petite fillet/fillet roast/kolichel).

Anyone else have suggestions for this cut?

Thanks!

Todd- glad I followed your advice. We tend to like it more on the pink and not quite as red, so I upped it to 133 and cooked it for 3 1/2 hours. I just used a simple dry spice rub (mostly garlic and onion powder). Cooked it whole and then sliced it thin and it was some of the best sliced steak we've ever had. Based on the thickness (about an inch and a half) I probably could have done it only for 3 hours, but one of the things that's so great is the extra half hour or so doesn't matter, and it makes coordinating everything so much easier.

Thanks again for your advice!

Edited January 30, 2012 by m61376 (log)