Braising questions

[Smithy]

Oh, one more thing: remember that the braising process is slow enough that you have a long period of time when it's done, before it starts to get overdone. If you're trying to time everything you're better off allowing an extra hour or two; when the ribs are done, you can wrap them tightly and keep them warm until it's time to eat.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

The spare rib recipe I'm working with is spuntature al sugo from The Romagnolis' Table (pp 150-151). Very simple: brown and season the ribs, then braise in red wine and tomatoes. The braising time called for is "at least 1 hour...even 2 hours", which never works for me. One reason I gave up on the recipe, although when braised much longer the results are tastey.

Here is something that puzzles me: the ribs are specified to be "cut in 3-inch lengths". I always assumed this meant 3 inch widths, in other words pieces of two or three ribs? But if it really means "lengths" that might explain the shorter cooking time. Not that I know of any way to cut a rib lengthwise short of a band saw.

Any guesses as to what the recipe might mean?

[nickrey]

It would be three inch lengths, which makes it easier to eat. Chinese cooking uses similar piece sizes. Get your butcher to cut them using a bandsaw. As the thickness of the meat being cooked doesn't change with shorter pieces it shouldn't affect the cooking time.

[FeChef]

It's definitely underdone. Breaking down meats until they are tender at low temperatures requires time at temperature, not just taking the meat up to temperature. For example, with sous vide cooking you may cook beef ribs at 135F but you would do so for three days.You typically need to cook lamb shanks until they are fork tender. Some recipes refer to a 325F oven for almost three hours. At 172 or even 250, you'd need a lot more time.

Rather than playing with meat temperature as your guide, I'd look up recommended cooking times and use those. Then you can measure and adjust your temperatures accordingly. Vegetables and beans require different cooking methods and times so I'd be tempted to do them seperately and add them towards the end of cooking.

I have done short ribs many times, And i can say with certainty @ 135F, they need only 36 hours to become tender. Not fall apart tender, but tender like a filet mignon @ 135F for 4 hours.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Thanks! I guess I'll wait till I have three inch lengths then for that recipe. Unfortunately The Romagnolis' Table has almost no pictures, so it was not obvious to me.

How about I cut off the sternum side of the ribs and use those little pieces for the spuntature al sugo? Would that work?

Meanwhile, what can I do with my ribs? I'd love suggestions.

[nickrey]

It's definitely underdone. Breaking down meats until they are tender at low temperatures requires time at temperature, not just taking the meat up to temperature. For example, with sous vide cooking you may cook beef ribs at 135F but you would do so for three days.You typically need to cook lamb shanks until they are fork tender. Some recipes refer to a 325F oven for almost three hours. At 172 or even 250, you'd need a lot more time.

Rather than playing with meat temperature as your guide, I'd look up recommended cooking times and use those. Then you can measure and adjust your temperatures accordingly. Vegetables and beans require different cooking methods and times so I'd be tempted to do them seperately and add them towards the end of cooking.

I have done short ribs many times, And i can say with certainty @ 135F, they need only 36 hours to become tender. Not fall apart tender, but tender like a filet mignon @ 135F for 4 hours.

Could be a difference between the corn-fed beef you use and the grass-fed beef that I use or perhaps we have a different definition of tender.

I think this amply demonstrates that hard and fast rules are not the answer and people need to explore what works best for them individually.

Edited September 27, 2013 by nickrey (log)

[FeChef]

Could be a difference between the corn-fed beef you use and the grass-fed beef that I use or perhaps we have a different definition of tender.

I think this amply demonstrates that hard and fast rules are not the answer and people need to explore what works best for them individually.

You may be right. I buy well marbled, wet aged, prime grade , and most likely, corn fed beef short ribs. I used to buy average run of the mill select/choice grade beef short ribs, and after 36 hours @ 135 they were like sawdust texture and dry. Where the prime grade has a juicy tender texture like that of a prime grade filet mignon. I noticed this with low grade select top round versus higher grade choice top round. The select would come out almost white when cooked @ 132F for 16 hours where the choice would come out a beautiful medium rare dark pink. Its like night and day, and the same cut of meat, just different quality.

[huiray]

Meanwhile, what can I do with my ribs? I'd love suggestions.

Bak Kut Teh.

Here's an example I made shown here on eG. (You can use just the star anise, cloves and cinnamon and skip the rest of the herbs)

You might also consider "braising" meats in a Chinese-type style ("炆"/"燜"), which Western/French cuisine purists might consider more like stewing than braising. I do my "braises" this way mostly, where I cover the meat (cut up into smaller pieces frequently (or not - e.g. smaller pork hocks are done "whole")) completely with the "braising" liquid and simmer it but allow the liquid to evaporate off (non-completely-sealing lid) and concentrate over the cooking time, turning the meat as needed. This is all done on the stove top, usually in a metal (SS) pot, not in the oven. See here and here and here (scroll down) for some examples.

Edited September 27, 2013 by huiray (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I never read the breakfast thread before! Is the dish thin like a broth?

As of now I'm leaning toward braising the sternum pieces and spit roasting the ribs themselves. Interesting to me, according to wikipedia, "spare ribs" mean ribs cooked on a spit. I have spit roasted them before but it was so long ago I've forgotten how they turned out.

[huiray]

Is the dish thin like a broth?

Depends. Most versions will be broth-like. The "dry-type" version, often associated w/ what is called the Klang version (but is not universally meant when one talks about "Klang BKT") will have a thick sauce.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I had success with a pork shoulder braise last night. I started with the meat in good sized cubes. After thoroughly browning the pieces on the stovetop in a 28 cm Le Creuset, I added two diced well sweated onions, bay leaves, some water, and a bit of salt. With the lid on I braised the pieces in a 225 deg F oven for an hour, then reduced the heat to 150 deg. and continued the braise for another 24 hours or so.

I pressure cooked previously soaked black beans and added them to the pork, along with rosemary. Lots of rosemary. I cooked with the pot open on the stovetop several hours, with the surface barely trembling. From this I had a lovely meal of soup.

After two days in the refrigerator, I plucked out a few of the larger chunks and baked them in a 400 deg F oven for about ten or fifteen minutes, and served with a mashed potato. The meat was ever so slightly crusty yet tender and pink inside. Very flavorful. Not stringy in the least.

[jayt90]

... this time I had hoped to adapt it to cooking the ribs in a pressure cooker, as now I have a pressure cooker, and when braising spare ribs I never seem to get them cooked enough.

EG has spare rib threads on babecue, smoking, steaming, and cooking in the oven. Unfortunately there is nothing I could find here on the subject of braising pork spare ribs or on pressure cooking them.

If I braise traditionally, what would be a good length of time for spare ribs? It always takes longer to braise anything than I expect. Maybe braising or pressure cooking are not the best techniques for spare ribs? I am open to suggestions. I could even try spit roasting them for something different.

Reviving this, as we don't know how your ribs turned out, and no one commented on pressure cooking ribs in a tomato based braise.

If the recipe suggests a 2 hour braise, then 50 minutes in the PC will be enough. The intense 250 F steam heat, with no escape, will penetrate the collagen in the ribs, loosening and melting it before the meat gets stringy. Give it a quick release, and finish under a broiler, basting with the sauce until you have the finish you want.

Beef spare ribs are excellent this way, too.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Funny you should ask about the ribs. The plan was to butcher them St. Louis style and use the rib tips for the braise in tomato sauce. Unfortunately I butchered my hand making Modernist carrot soup, and the ribs went in the freezer. The ribs are still in there. I think of them from time to time.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

The ribs are still in the freezer, but I have something positive to report:  I had great success preparing beef chuck in the pressure cooker for an hour, after browning first.  The meat was tender and not stringy at all.  I can't say it was better than braising slowly for two days, but on the other hand I had someting to eat for dinner.

[randomwalk]

This is late, but I had so much sympathy for your braising troubles I wanted to comment.  A few years ago, I too became interested in stews and braises, and yet following the recipes left me with tough and stringy meat.  What I do now, instead, is completely ignore temperatures, and just make sure the pot is always at a low simmer.  If it is completely still, it's too cold, and if it's boiling, it's too hot.  My hunch is that so few ovens are calibrated that using oven temperatures can lead you astray!  Or maybe that's just me.    Anyway, I'm just a home cook so advanced cooks may have reasoned disagreement, but changing my practice here worked like a charm for me.  I usually do braise-y things on the stovetop, but this "method" also works for the oven, if you're willing to be a bit hands-on.

 

Also relatedly, my go-to recipe for pasta sauce involves pork spare ribs (along with sausage and beef chuck).  I brown them, and then braise everything for 2-3 hours.  It never takes 2 days (!).  They are not falling off the bone--they are tender but also have some resistence--which is how I like them. 

 

I have ordered a pressure cooker (just yesterday) and am super excited--that's how I stumbled on this thread.  I can't wait to try out all the things that take me hours a day.  I have twin babies so no time for the old ways! 

[FauxPas]

I just made a version of Molly Stevens' "World's Best Braised Green Cabbage" and it was really delicious, a very pleasant surprise both to myself and to several people who said they don't usually like cabbage. It's cabbage cut into wedges, with carrots and onion, some S&P, a few red pepper flakes, chicken stock and oil - all cooked for about 2 hours at 325F or so. If you are interested, this is the version I did:

 

http://www.kitchenriffs.com/2011/03/easy-tasty-braised-cabbage.html

[nickrey]

 

Also relatedly, my go-to recipe for pasta sauce involves pork spare ribs (along with sausage and beef chuck).  I brown them, and then braise everything for 2-3 hours.  It never takes 2 days (!).  They are not falling off the bone--they are tender but also have some resistence--which is how I like them.

 

I have ordered a pressure cooker (just yesterday) and am super excited--that's how I stumbled on this thread.  I can't wait to try out all the things that take me hours a day.  I have twin babies so no time for the old ways! 

The longer cooking time involved cooking the meat sous vide, not as a conventional braise - different process, different times. Don't use your current times for your pressure cooker or you'll wind up with meat particles.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I snorted my peanuts!

 

I've been playing with both the pressure cooker and sous vide.  I've had both better and much worse results with sous vide, but I must say the pressure cooker sure is faster and can turn out quite good stuff.

[randomwalk]

The longer cooking time involved cooking the meat sous vide, not as a conventional braise - different process, different times. Don't use your current times for your pressure cooker or you'll wind up with meat particles.

 

Why do you think I want a pressure cooker?!  I'm ecstatic at the idea of making quick work of long meals. 

[nickrey]

They're really handy. I use conventional braising, pressure cookers, sous vide., etc. It all depends on what I'm making and what time I have available. You may want to look at a cooking food processor next (Thermomix, Thermochef) as they can make life really easy, especially in making risotto, polenta, cooked oats, etc.

[randomwalk]

They're really handy. I use conventional braising, pressure cookers, sous vide., etc. It all depends on what I'm making and what time I have available. You may want to look at a cooking food processor next (Thermomix, Thermochef) as they can make life really easy, especially in making risotto, polenta, cooked oats, etc.

 

Interesting!  Those sound pricey.  We just sold our baby food maker which was a cooking food processor too ($100), but probably not what you're thinking of.     Took a while to convince my husband that a PC was worth it so the thermomix may need to be a long con.  But you have planted a seed!

[randomwalk]

Ok I just did some searching and it looks like those thermos are in the range of $1500-$3000.  That will be a REALLY REALLY long con over here  

 

Do you have an opinion on this?  http://www.kuchef.com.au/product-categories/multi-cookers/thermo-cook.html%C2'> $350?  Still a pretty hefty investment but it does look versatile. 

 

But at this point, for now, I just have to see how my PC goes and here's hoping it scratches any itch I have for fancy kitchen equipment!

[JoNorvelleWalker]

For all those who are wondering, I finally retrieved the infamous spare ribs from the freezer.  It's been almost a year since I butchered my thumb.  I must say, the ribs looked pretty good, considering.  Maybe better than my thumb.

 

The large ribs I cut in three portions ("two by two, hands of blue") which are now Anovaing 24 hours, 68 deg C, per Baldwin.

 

Meanwhile the little pieces I prepared by The Romagnolis' Table spare rib recipe (pp 150, 151) except I pressure cooked the ribs fifteen minutes, per pazzaglia.  And I snuck in a couple bay leaves that were not called for in the recipe.  After pressure cooking I traditionally braised a further couple hours.

 

If I've had better tomato sauce, I don't remember it.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I haven't done a braise in a while, much to the disappointment of my battery of Le Creuset.  But tonight I opened a couple sous vide bags of chuck.  I'd been meaning to make beef stew for some while, but the immediate inspiration was a cookbook I was reading the other night at work which suggested using chicken broth as the braising liquid.  I can't recall the title or author, so unfortunately credit cannot be given.  However after a bit of googling I find using chicken broth for beef stew is a common technique, even if new to me.

 

I browned the chuck, added the ozmazome and chicken stock, onions, garlic, rangiri cut carrots and parsley roots, fingerling potatoes, two bay leaves, and much fresh thyme imported from my dining room.  Braised at about 88 deg C. for a couple hours.  Garnished with a generous chopping of the distal portion of said parsley roots.  Otherwise known as parsley.  Served with half of last night's baguette and a bottle of French Malbec.

 

[TdeV]

Prior to this gift (link), I had no braising experience, and I don't have much more now.  I have been reading the books on braising mentioned in the earlier thread, but many of those recipes don't relate to a specific cooking vessel.

 

In my mind I'm trying to understand if there's a difference between using the slow cooker in the Instant Pot and using an enamelled cast iron pot in the oven.

 

I need some help understanding what happens in a braise in an enamelled cast iron pot. (Do all closed Dutch ovens cook in the same way?)

 

The photo below is my interpretation of a NY Times RECIPE for Jamaican oxtail stew, recipe here, which calls for almost burning sugar in the pan at the start. Instead I looked up (how to) and made a wet caramel. The oxtail were not sautéed in the caramel very long because I was afraid to burn it. With the lid on, I put the cast iron in oven at 300°F for about 4 hours, possibly turning heat down to 250°F halfway, removed from oven to stovetop without uncovering, and eventually put in the fridge overnight.

 

In the morning I removed the fat layer. The oxtail meat was also not falling off the bone. So I put the cast iron back in the oven for some more, maybe about 4-5 hours, again starting at 300°F, then lowering to 275°F partway. I put the cast iron on top of the stove and the top surface of the contents was black.

 

I wasn't sure if the blackness was because the dish was burnt or because the caramel had darkened. Took me about 2.5 hours to separate meat, fat, and bone. Some of the meat seemed dry and hard, some of it soft. I cut the black bits into very small pieces in the hopes that might minimize any burned flavour.

 

It was pretty tasty, but I don't understand much. Sorry the photo below is so poor, four servings had already been dished out. It was served with red beans and brown rice with a side of asparagus.

 

So here are my questions:

• Do the contents in a covered enamelled cast iron pot eventually reach the same temperature as the oven? How long does that take?
• Is the goal of using a covered enamelled cast iron pot to cook for a very long time at low heat?
• Is the goal of using a covered enamelled cast iron pot to use less liquid?
• When disassembled, some of the meat -- particularly the black bits -- was hard and seemed dry, and needed cutting with a knife. Some of the meat was very soft and could be squished between my fingers. Would there be a reliable way to get all the meat done to the same degree of doneness?
• What is different about the results from a slow braise in a covered enamelled cast iron pot and those from a slow cooker?