Cutting Board Sanitizer/Sanitizing Cutting Boards

[dcarch]

Sanitize all you want.

 

But when you go outside to eat, restaurants and food trucks, travel to different countries, don't count on they sanitize the way you do.

 

dcarch

[Ann_T]

On 4/5/2018 at 12:44 PM, MetsFan5 said:

I put my boards— all of them— in the dishwasher. My wooden ones a lot less often. Is that heresay? 

 

To be honest, I kind of cringed when I read this.   It certainly isn't advised to put a wooden board in the dishwasher.

I'm surprised you haven't had a problem with your boards  warping big time.

[boilsover]

22 hours ago, gfweb said:

@boilsover Household strength peroxide is not a good disinfectant.

 

 

Hmm, citation, please?

 

Do you consider this method unsafe for sanitization?  https://www.uvm.edu/~susagctr/whatwedo/producesafety/GAPsResources/PSSanitizerLiquidIowaSep15.pdf

 

I stopped reading after the 3rd Google page after searching "Is hydrogen peroxide effective to rinse vegetables" and can't find any citations that say it's ineffective.

 

Thanks.

[gfweb]

Rinsing veg is not the same as sanitizing a cutting board. Being able to Google does not make you  smarter.  As you have just shown. 

 

I am very familiar with methods for sanitizing. Nobody. NOBODY uses OTC peroxide to disinfect. 

 

Ever have a doc use peroxide to clean your skin for surgery or a blood draw?  No you didn't. 

 

Hmmm, @boilsover, save the snark.  Your ignorance is showing. 

 

Usually I respond civilly but I will make an exception for ignorant arrogance 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by gfweb (log)

[Martin Fisher]

I certainly do wash the poly boards but I'm not convinced that any liquid sanitizer is reliably effective in countering germs that may be present in the scores on a board.

That's why I prefer to 'sanitize' with very hot water.

I've never had a problem with boards deforming—even cheap thin boards.

"For common commercial grades of medium- and high-density polyethylene the melting point is typically in the range 120 to 180 °C (248 to 356 °F)."

[paulraphael]

11 hours ago, dcarch said:

Sanitize all you want.

 

But when you go outside to eat, restaurants and food trucks, travel to different countries, don't count on they sanitize the way you do.

 

dcarch

 

You can't count on me doing it all the time at home. But at restaurants and food trucks you can absolutely count on it. Health codes just about everywhere in the US require it. Probably elsewhere in the developed world. Commercial dishwashers are either heat-sanitizing or chemical-sanitizing. The latter runs a solution just like the one I describe through the rinse cycle. Commercial dishwashing sinks are all triple—for wash, rinse, and sanitize. If you don't have a sanitizing dishwasher or 3-basin sink, you won't get licensed to open. One of the first things a health inspector checks is if the three sink basins are properly filled and that the water isn't dirty. They cary test strips to make sure your sanitizer isn't exhausted. Commercial kitchens I've been in have a sanitizer-filled tub full of clean cutting boards, and bussing tray to throw used ones into. This is all commercial kitchen 101.

[paulraphael]

1 hour ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

I certainly do wash the poly boards but I'm not convinced that any liquid sanitizer is reliably effective in countering germs that may be present in the scores on a board.

That's why I prefer to 'sanitize' with very hot water.

I've never had a problem with boards deforming—even cheap thin boards.

"For common commercial grades of medium- and high-density polyethylene the melting point is typically in the range 120 to 180 °C (248 to 356 °F)."

 

Sanitizing works on clean surfaces (no organic matter hanging around) and there's no guaranteed way to get that stuff out of the deepest reaches of a hacked-up cutting board. That's why most sources say to toss a poly board when it gets scored. Or sand a wood or rubber board. Someone around here said they had a method for sanding poly boards that didn't wreck them. I'd be curious to hear it. 

[Martin Fisher]

27 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

Sanitizing works on clean surfaces (no organic matter hanging around) and there's no guaranteed way to get that stuff out of the deepest reaches of a hacked-up cutting board. That's why most sources say to toss a poly board when it gets scored. Or sand a wood or rubber board. Someone around here said they had a method for sanding poly boards that didn't wreck them. I'd be curious to hear it. 

 

I haven't been able to find where high-temperature sanitizing has been tested—wish I could, but solution sanitizing certainly has.

I don't think a board can be used without scoring it in some way—minor or major.

Boiled vinegar may be one of the best all-around sanitizers for poly boards.

 

"The FDA code and health departments across the United States have emphasized the use of sanitizing chemicals as the critical point for making food contact surfaces safe. These data show that this assumption is not always accurate. Wiping the surface with a clean cloth soaked in vinegar appears to be a very effective sanitizer, based on the data. Simply rinsing and scrubbing a dirty surface with flowing water seems to be more effective than cleaning and sanitizing food contact surfaces with a cloth dipped in a quaternary ammonium compound solution. It is also known that when a quaternary ammonium compound solution becomes dirty in an open bucket into which dirty cloths are dipped, the solution becomes susceptible to degradation by filth, dirt, and other debris. As a result, the solution does not remain at its beginning strength over a period of 2 hours that the solution is used. The quaternary ammonium compound solution used in this experiment was dispensed from a squirt bottle to maintain its effectiveness and prevent degradation."

 

Source: THE MICROBIOLOGY OF CLEANING AND SANITIZING A CUTTING BOARD by O. Peter Snyder, Jr., Ph.D.

[MetsFan5]

13 hours ago, Ann_T said:

 

To be honest, I kind of cringed when I read this.   It certainly isn't advised to put a wooden board in the dishwasher.

I'm surprised you haven't had a problem with your boards  warping big time.

 

 

  I have one (nice to me) WS board I don’t put in the washer. I have put the others in maybe 2-5 times since I’ve owned them  (5-6 years). I only use my wooden boards to slice and rest cooked meat or make a charcuterie board. I have a lot of nice wooden serving pieces meant for cheese and meats and wooden salad bowls and utensils I hand wash. 

 

I get why you cringed! 

[paulraphael]

Disinfectants and sanitizers are not quite the same thing. I use a peroxide-based disinfectant at home and love it; it's pretty non-toxic, it works well, and it smells good. There's no nasty residue. It's sold as a commercial product for hospitals, so it's not so easy to find ... I'm not sure why.

 

Sanitizers are used in somewhat  lower concentrations and in much larger quantities, and need to stay stable in an open sink for a whole shift. Peroxide is unstable even in a plastic bottle. In a sink it will off-gas to basically nothing very quickly. Peroxide is much more expensive than the usual suspects (quaternary ammonium, chlorine). For reasons I don't know, it hasn't been approved as a commercial restaurant sanitizer by health departments (at least not as of the last time I looked into it). It used to be a popular sanitizer for breweries. They used it in higher concentrations than household peroxide. Mostly for stainless steel and copper surfaces. From what I've read it's no longer popular; that industry has switched to stuff called PAA, which is a strong peroxide/acetic acid blend that is nastier than anything you'd want in your kitchen. It must be pretty effective for people to put up with it.

 

 

[boilsover]

19 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

Disinfectants and sanitizers are not quite the same thing. I use a peroxide-based disinfectant at home and love it; it's pretty non-toxic, it works well, and it smells good. There's no nasty residue. It's sold as a commercial product for hospitals, so it's not so easy to find ... I'm not sure why.

 

Sanitizers are used in somewhat  lower concentrations and in much larger quantities, and need to stay stable in an open sink for a whole shift. Peroxide is unstable even in a plastic bottle. In a sink it will off-gas to basically nothing very quickly. Peroxide is much more expensive than the usual suspects (quaternary ammonium, chlorine). For reasons I don't know, it hasn't been approved as a commercial restaurant sanitizer by health departments (at least not as of the last time I looked into it). It used to be a popular sanitizer for breweries. They used it in higher concentrations than household peroxide. Mostly for stainless steel and copper surfaces. From what I've read it's no longer popular; that industry has switched to stuff called PAA, which is a strong peroxide/acetic acid blend that is nastier than anything you'd want in your kitchen. It must be pretty effective for people to put up with it.

 

 

Thanks.  The peroxide I buy is stronger than OTC, but for many applications, like rinsing produce, it's diluted to OTC strength.

 

IMO, its relative unpopularity is due to the fact that it degrades into harmlessness quite quicky in air and light.  To me, this is a good thing, but I can see why restauranteurs and health inspectors might favor other agents.

 

I use a product called Proxycarb in the winery, which is an industry favorite.

 

Dumb and snarky as I am...

Edited April 8, 2018 by boilsover (log)

[gfweb]

16 minutes ago, boilsover said:

Thanks.  The peroxide I buy is stronger than OTC, but for many applications, like rinsing produce, it's diluted to OTC strength.

 

IMO, its relative unpopularity is due to the fact that it degrades into harmlessness quite quicky in air and light.  To me, this is a good thing, but I can see why restauranteurs and health inspectors might favor other agents.

 

I use a product called Proxycarb in the winery, which is an industry favorite.

 

Dumb and snarky as I am...

 

As you say ..you aren't using OTC peroxide. That is what I addressed. 

Shall we kiss and make up?

[rotuts]

some time ago

 

in a previous century

 

while in H.S.

 

I did a lot of Chemistry.

 

not of course   that kind  

 

and for two years I was paid for this and an employee of the Said School District 

 

on the shelf of the various reagents , not the ones that were under Lock and Key

 

ie full strength HCL , Nitric Acid  ,  K sticks and Na sticks

 

there was 30 %  hydrogen peroxide right there on the ordinary shelf.

 

Rocket Fuel it was  :

 

two drops on the surface of the lab benches

 

with a toss of KPermanginate ( two very small ones ) on those two drops

 

you could clearly see

 

why H₂O₂

 

at 30 %   or more was used as Rocket Fuel

 

Wooooosh !

 

always wearing those Cool Goggles of the time

 

iof course !

 

[rotuts]

BTW :

 

Not Me ordered the 30 %

 

which should have been 3 %

[paulraphael]

After the smoke clears and you sweep the rubble away, the surfaces should be safe for preparing a salad.

[boilsover]

4 hours ago, gfweb said:

As you say ..you aren't using OTC peroxide. That is what I addressed. 

Shall we kiss and make up?

No, what I wrote was I'm rinsing produce in OTC concentrations and weaker.  That's what I meant by "dilute".

Edited April 8, 2018 by boilsover (log)

[MetsFan5]

5 hours ago, boilsover said:

No, what I wrote was I'm rinsing produce in OTC concentrations and weaker.  That's what I meant by "dilute".

 

 

 

I wouldnt personally do that. I don’t believe that’s what peroxide is meant for. I asked my husband who has a BS in Chemistry from Cal and he was appalled. 

[boilsover]

2 minutes ago, MetsFan5 said:

 

 

I wouldnt personally do that. I don’t believe that’s what peroxide is meant for. I asked my husband who has a BS in Chemistry from Cal and he was appalled. 

Did you read the citation I provided?  I'm happy to read contrary authority.

 

Ask hubs how he enjoyed Big Game the last 8 years...  Beat Cal!

 

 

[paulraphael]

25 minutes ago, boilsover said:

Did you read the citation I provided?  I'm happy to read contrary authority.

 

Ask hubs how he enjoyed Big Game the last 8 years...  Beat Cal!

 

 

 

The link you cited really just showed generic information on the behavior of a bunch of sanitizers. It doesn't address the measured performance of any of them when sanitizing produce (you can read the same descriptions of these chemicals, practically word-for-word, referring to their performance on nonporous surfaces).

 

Here's an FDA study analysis that directly addresses sanitizers on produce. This is the only one I could find that even addresses peroxide. It's not surprising that H2O2 isn't so popular; It's effectiveness is spotty, and it causes browning of some vegetables, bleaching of others. 

 

Excerpts of shortcomings:

 

"Treatment of whole cantaloupes, honeydew melons, and asparagus spears with 1% H2O2 was less effective at reducing levels of inoculated salmonellae and E. coli O157:H7 than hypochlorite, acidified sodium chlorite or a peracetic acid-containing sanitizer (Park and Beuchat 1999).""

 

"Use of a 1% H2O2 spray on alfalfa seeds and sprouts did not control growth of E. coli O157:H7 (Taormina and Beuchat 1999b)."

 

"... however, obvious visual defects were noted on the treated lettuce."

 

None of this is damning. It appears to be safe to use. But it's also only marginally effective, and can discolor food. If I were looking for a produce sanitizer, I'd keep looking.

[MetsFan5]

2 hours ago, boilsover said:

Did you read the citation I provided?  I'm happy to read contrary authority.

 

Ask hubs how he enjoyed Big Game the last 8 years...  Beat Cal!

 

 

 

 

My inlaws went to Stanford and Big Game has nothing to do with this. Boring college football; been there done that. Whichever team wins doesn’t diminish my husband’s degree. 

 

  Cal is and has been the number one university worldwide for undergrad Chem degrees. So I will take my husband’s opinion, thanks. 

  Obviously to each their own. But really, get a clue. I doubt there is anyone on this board with the chem credentials my husband has. 

 

And yes yes I read your citation as did my husband. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by MetsFan5 (log)

[boilsover]

11 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

The link you cited really just showed generic information on the behavior of a bunch of sanitizers. It doesn't address the measured performance of any of them when sanitizing produce (you can read the same descriptions of these chemicals, practically word-for-word, referring to their performance on nonporous surfaces).

 

Here's an FDA study analysis that directly addresses sanitizers on produce. This is the only one I could find that even addresses peroxide. It's not surprising that H2O2 isn't so popular; It's effectiveness is spotty, and it causes browning of some vegetables, bleaching of others. 

 

Excerpts of shortcomings:

 

"Treatment of whole cantaloupes, honeydew melons, and asparagus spears with 1% H2O2 was less effective at reducing levels of inoculated salmonellae and E. coli O157:H7 than hypochlorite, acidified sodium chlorite or a peracetic acid-containing sanitizer (Park and Beuchat 1999).""

 

"Use of a 1% H2O2 spray on alfalfa seeds and sprouts did not control growth of E. coli O157:H7 (Taormina and Beuchat 1999b)."

 

"... however, obvious visual defects were noted on the treated lettuce."

 

None of this is damning. It appears to be safe to use. But it's also only marginally effective, and can discolor food. If I were looking for a produce sanitizer, I'd keep looking.

 

Thanks.  I wonder how/why they picked 1%.

 

Somehow we morphed from "NO! NO one EVER uses it!!!" and "APPALLED", to "It's not the best."  I never said H2O2 was the best for rinsing vegetables.  Yet It clearly has some efficacy as a sanitizer.  And it is a good general-purpose household chemical to have on hand for many uses.  If it's what you have, and it has efficacy, it's hard to get to the shrill "APPALLED".

 

Just so folks can see what FDA says about H2O2's efficacy:

 

"Use of H₂O₂ on whole and fresh-cut produce has been investigated in recent years. Salmonella populations on alfalfa sprouts were reduced approximately 2 log CFU/g after treatment for 2 min with 2% H₂O₂ or 200 ppm chlorine (Beuchat and Ryu 1997). Less than 1 log CFU/g reduction was observed on cantaloupe cubes under similar test conditions. Treatment with 5% H₂O₂ bleached sprouts and cantaloupe cubes. Treatment of whole cantaloupes, honeydew melons, and asparagus spears with 1% H₂O₂ was less effective at reducing levels of inoculated salmonellae and E. coli O157:H7 than hypochlorite, acidified sodium chlorite or a peracetic acid-containing sanitizer (Park and Beuchat 1999). Use of a 1% H₂O₂ spray on alfalfa seeds and sprouts did not control growth of E. coli O157:H7 (Taormina and Beuchat 1999b). H₂O₂ (3%), alone or in combination with 2 or 5% acetic acid sprayed onto green peppers, reduced Shigella populations approximately 5 log cycles, compared to less than a 1-log reduction by water alone (Peters 1995). In the same study, Shigella inoculated onto lettuce was reduced approximately 4 log after dipping in H₂O₂ combined with either 2 or 5% acetic acid; however, obvious visual defects were noted on the treated lettuce. The same treatment gave similar results for E. coli O157:H7 inoculated onto broccoli florets or tomatoes with minimal visual defects.

Microbial populations on whole cantaloupes, grapes, prunes, raisins, walnuts, and pistachios were significantly reduced upon treatment with H₂O₂ vapor (Sapers and Simmons 1998). Treatment by dipping in H₂O₂ solution reduced microbial populations on fresh-cut bell peppers, cucumber, zucchini, cantaloupe, and honeydew melon, but did not alter sensory characteristics. Treatment of other produce was not as successful. H₂O₂ vapor concentrations necessary to control Pseudomonas tolaasii caused mushrooms to turn brown, while anthocyanin-bleaching occurred in strawberries and raspberries. Shredded lettuce was severely browned upon dipping in a solution of H₂O₂. Combinations of 5% H₂O₂ with acidic surfactants at 50 °C (122 °F ) produced a 3 to 4 log reduction of non-pathogenic E. coli inoculated onto the surfaces of unwaxed Golden Delicious apples (Sapers and others 1999). Further research is necessary to determine the usefulness of H₂O₂ treatment on other fruits and vegetables."

Edited April 9, 2018 by boilsover (log)

[KennethT]

H2O2 definitely has good use as a sanitizer.  In hydroponics, it's very commonly used to fight anaerobic bacteria that could be living in root systems or the reservoir.  I used to keep a gallon of 17% H2O2 in my fridge at all times - I'd basically add 8ml per gallon and that would take care of any bacterial issues.  I've since stopped using H2O2 in favor of hypochlorous acid - it lasts longer in the reservoir and does just as good of a job initially.  The problem with H2O2 is that it is unstable at low concentrations - which is why the drugstore stuff at 3% needs stabilizers... At 17 or 35% it is stable, but should be kept refrigerated.  So once it's diluted, it doesn't last long.

[Porthos]

On 4/7/2018 at 9:09 PM, DiggingDogFarm said:

I haven't been able to find where high-temperature sanitizing has been tested ...

 

I don't know the specifics of the science behind this but California Unified Retail Food Facility Law does recognize hot water as a sanitizing method:

 

114060. Requirements for Manual Sanitization
(a) Manual sanitization shall be accomplished in the final sanitizing rinse by one
of the following:

.

.

.

(4) Contact with water of at least 82 degrees Celsius (180 degrees Fahrenheit)
for 30 seconds.

 

As for me, I'm in the 100 PPM of bleach camp. Works for me. And, yes, I use test strips to verify the concentration. I respect the right of others to disagree, but I have known to  many commercial kitchen operators who use this method to be deterred in my personal choice.

[paulraphael]

On 4/8/2018 at 12:09 AM, DiggingDogFarm said:

 

I haven't been able to find where high-temperature sanitizing has been tested—wish I could, but solution sanitizing certainly has.

I don't think a board can be used without scoring it in some way—minor or major.

Boiled vinegar may be one of the best all-around sanitizers for poly boards.

 

"The FDA code and health departments across the United States have emphasized the use of sanitizing chemicals as the critical point for making food contact surfaces safe. These data show that this assumption is not always accurate. Wiping the surface with a clean cloth soaked in vinegar appears to be a very effective sanitizer, based on the data. Simply rinsing and scrubbing a dirty surface with flowing water seems to be more effective than cleaning and sanitizing food contact surfaces with a cloth dipped in a quaternary ammonium compound solution. It is also known that when a quaternary ammonium compound solution becomes dirty in an open bucket into which dirty cloths are dipped, the solution becomes susceptible to degradation by filth, dirt, and other debris. As a result, the solution does not remain at its beginning strength over a period of 2 hours that the solution is used. The quaternary ammonium compound solution used in this experiment was dispensed from a squirt bottle to maintain its effectiveness and prevent degradation."

 

Source: THE MICROBIOLOGY OF CLEANING AND SANITIZING A CUTTING BOARD by O. Peter Snyder, Jr., Ph.D.

 

High temperature sanitizing works the same way as pasteurization and sterilization. It's the simplest to understand sanitization, because temperature/time/death curves for all pathogens are well known. I've never heard of a health department not acknowledging it. It doesn't come up so often, because for the method to be practical you need a heat-sanitizing dishwasher. Water from the tap isn't hot enough, and if it were, it would do the same things to the dishwashers' hands that it does to the bacteria.

 

That quotation about dipping a cloth in quaternary ammonium is a bit of a straw-man argument. It's basically saying that if you use those sanitizers exactly the way the manufacturers tell you not too, they won't work well. There are mountains of legitimate research on sanitizers. Beware of treating a single, non-peer reviewed article as gospel. Vinegar has many shortcomings. It's fairly weak against lysteria and e.coli. It's useless against most viruses (quats are ineffective against norovirus, which is the one real strike I see against them). Vinegar is absolutely more effective than not using vinegar, so if you're looking for a bit of additional insurance, there's no harm. Just don't overestimate it.

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by paulraphael (log)

[Martin Fisher]

I sanitize with water just off the boiling point.

Can't imagine anything that's as simple.

Edited April 10, 2018 by DiggingDogFarm (log)