Ceviche--Cook-Off 34

[weinoo]

I make the marinade first (lime, salt, chile) and adjust for salt and heat at this point. If I'm doing tiradito, I will mince onion and add that to the marinade prior to adding to the fish.

Onion for ceviche will be added to the marinade before adding to the fish or after the fish has completed marination, depending on the onion and how I want it to taste.

I always soak the onion in water to remove some of the sharpness.

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That's how I do mine. Right down to the onion!

I also find that putting the diced onion into the marinade helps to reduce its sharpness ...kind of pickling it a bit.

And thanks, Shelby.

[Peter Green]

Here's the version I like, modified slightly from 2003 when Douglas Rodriguez and Michael Reidt did the Nuevo Lation class. Douglas Rodrigues opened with this:

Big-Eye Tuna with Coconut Water

The night before, infuse your coconut water with the standar Thai trio of lemon grass, kafir lime leaf, and galanga. Toss in some of the coconut gelatin for texture.

- 1 cup coconut water (not coconut milk!) - we use a Filipino brand that's pretty good - Manila I think is the name. Check the contents carefully, as a lot of these are mainly syrup with a touch of coconut. The good ones are just coconut water with nothing else.

- 1 kaffir lime leaf - julienned

- 1 tbsp grated galanga

- 1 stalk of lemon grass - chopped

The next day, strain the coconut water and have ready.

For the fish, he'd prefer something fattier - mackeral, salmon, tuna. If you go with leaner fish, you get a much chewier dish. And if you can get fish the Keller way - that is, not yanked out of the water with their muscles tensing up - then you're all the better off. Mind you, if you're buying frozen tuna, how can you tell?

For the cut of the fish, you can either go for slices or cubes. Obviously, the surface area to volume ratio is going to change the final texture you get.

- 1 lb of tuna (in this case)

Next, in a non-reactive bowl, blend together

- 1/2 cup fresh squeezed lime juice

- the infused coconut water

- 2 tbsp of garlic oil (he called for 1/4 cup, but that's too much for me)

- 6 pieces of Thai red chilis - the little evil ones

- 1/4 cup coarsely chopped coriander/cilantro

This should be good and brothy

- Then add in the tuna.

- add some thinly sliced red onion

- gently toss the fish in the broth

- You don't want this to sit for too long (in fact, you need to eat it fairly quick)

- you can garnish this further with basil, spring onion, whatever, but I don't like it getting too busy.

I'm fond of this when I'm back in Vancouver in the summers, there's no a/c, and I've been on a binge over at T&T Market. As long as I've had the foresight to have the infusion handy.......Yoonhi does complain that it hurts her teeth, but I like the bite.

Rodriguez recommended corn - popcorn works - to counter the toothiness of the dish.

As a note, the Thai and Lao use a combination of lime juice, garlic, and chilis for "cooking" fish and prawns, salted with nampla. One of my favourite dishes was the Thai "ceviche" of raw prawns (goong che nampla) that they sold at Likhit Kai Yang next to the Rachadamnoern Muay Thai stadium. Mind you, I had a lot of favourite dishes there........

[insomniac]

Here's the version I like, modified slightly from 2003 when Douglas Rodriguez and Michael Reidt did the Nuevo Lation class.   Douglas Rodrigues opened with this:

Big-Eye Tuna with Coconut Water

The night before, infuse your coconut water with the standar Thai trio of lemon grass, kafir lime leaf, and galanga.  Toss in some of the coconut gelatin for texture.

- 1 cup coconut water (not coconut milk!) - we use a Filipino brand that's pretty good - Manila I think is the name.  Check the contents carefully, as a lot of these are mainly syrup with a touch of coconut.  The good ones are just coconut water with nothing else.

- 1 kaffir lime leaf - julienned

- 1 tbsp grated galanga

- 1 stalk of lemon grass - chopped

The next day, strain the coconut water and have ready.

For the fish, he'd prefer something fattier - mackeral, salmon, tuna.  If you go with leaner fish, you get a much chewier dish.  And if you can get fish the Keller way - that is, not yanked out of the water with their muscles tensing up - then you're all the better off.  Mind you, if you're buying frozen tuna, how can you tell?

For the cut of the fish, you can either go for slices or cubes.  Obviously, the surface area to volume ratio is going to change the final texture you get.

- 1 lb of tuna (in this case)

Next, in a non-reactive bowl, blend together

- 1/2 cup fresh squeezed lime juice

- the infused coconut water

-  2 tbsp of garlic oil (he called for 1/4 cup, but that's too much for me)

- 6 pieces of Thai red chilis - the little evil ones

- 1/4 cup coarsely chopped coriander/cilantro

This should be good and brothy

- Then add in the tuna. 

- add some thinly sliced red onion

- gently toss the fish in the broth

- You don't want this to sit for too long (in fact, you need to eat it fairly quick)

- you can garnish this further with basil, spring onion, whatever, but I don't like it getting too busy.

I'm fond of this when I'm back in Vancouver in the summers, there's no a/c, and I've been on a binge over at T&T Market.  As long as I've had the foresight to have the infusion handy.......Yoonhi does complain that it hurts her teeth, but I like the bite.

Rodriguez recommended corn - popcorn works - to counter the toothiness of the dish.

As a note, the Thai and Lao use a combination of lime juice, garlic, and chilis for "cooking" fish and prawns, salted with nampla.  One of my favourite dishes was the Thai "ceviche" of raw prawns (goong che nampla) that they sold at Likhit Kai Yang next to the Rachadamnoern Muay Thai stadium.  Mind you, I had a lot of favourite dishes there........

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Thanks for the recipe Peter, will definitely give it a go (if I can get my mits on coconut water) Would the contents of a ma plao (young coconut) be a permissible substitute? BTW gung share nampla is one of my favourite dishes; when my friend first made it for me she called it gung ten or 'dancing prawns' as she used live prawns rather mercilessly to create her recipe, but then again I am not a member of the RSPP.....

ps. edited to add, your recipe sounds like a take on kokoda, one of the national dishes of Fiji

Edited August 31, 2007 by insomniac (log)

[hummingbirdkiss]

I'm wondering about order and technique. Are people just dumping everything together or is there an order? For example, with many pickles, you salt first and then add acid down the road. Also, when and how do you taste for balance?

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Squeeze the limes, add the salt, the minced onions and peppers .. as I am scraping/mincing the fish I just keep adding it to the mix then stir it all together

as far as taste ..I taste when it is mixed up but it rarely needs a thing since i Have made this for so many years it is just right usually when I finish

Edited August 31, 2007 by hummingbirdkiss (log)

[snowangel]

I have access to a whole mess of really fresh salmon. Has anyone got any experience with making cerviche with salmon?

Edited to add: I should have mentioned that this is fresh water salmon, has never lived in salt water. Wonder if there's a difference, and if fresh water fish is often "cerviched"?

[Gabriel Lewis]

Insomniac: coconut water is the water from a young coconut, but you can often buy it frozen or refrigerated, though typically it has been sweetened. Fresh from the coconut is better I find if it isn't rancid, something that seems to rarely be the case for me. As an aside a recipe similar to the "dancing prawns one" can be found in David Thompson's Thai Food. I think it gets its name from the tiny prawns eaten live in thailand that literally "dance" around in your mouth; this is also where the title for one of Kasma's books came from.

When I make ceviche I start by cutting the fish into the desired size, and then immersing this in enough lime juice to almost cover. I then add a large quantity of salt, stir thoroughly, and leave to sit for 10-15 minutes (for tiradito), stirring occasionally until the fish has fully changed color. I then check the salt/acidity balance, and adjust accordingly. Ceviche is obviously going to be sour, but I find when the balance is right its a sour you can't get enough of rather than puckeringly sour; usually it takes quite a lot of salt for me, 2-3 tsps coarse sea salt to 6-8 tbsps lime juice and 150-200g fish. Then I strain the seafood from the lime juice, add all the other ingredients and mix, and add back as much curing juice as required "tigre de leche"; sometimes I serve the juice seperately in a side dish. Peter mentioned textural contrast; to create this I like raw onions/shallots, thinly sliced deseeed chiles, jicama, chulpi (deep fried popcorn, like peter mentioned).

Susan: I know some thai dishes similar to ceviche that use freshwater prawns, but my peruvian friend always used say that he preferred saltwater fish for ceviche. Couldn't hurt to try though. First things that came to mind for me were standard thai with lime juice, fish sauce if desired, and your choice of things like aromatics (lemongrass, kaffir lime leaves, kaffir lime zest) herbs (mint, coriander, sawtooth herb) thinly sliced shallots, thinly sliced thai chiles. Something with fresh tumeric infused coconut milk, shallots, lemongrass, shredded kaffir lime leaves, fish sauce, thai chilies and maybe a pinch of sugar might be nice.

Another possibility would be to work the chinese/japanese peruvian mix that has spawned a lot of tasty creations in peru. A version I very much enjoyed included thinly sliced red onions, toasted sesame seeds, sesame chile oil, shredded green onions, and lime juice. Or perhaps ponzuish with soy sauce and citrus.

[C. sapidus]

Wow, y’all have made some beautiful ceviche. I missed this thread when we made our first ceviche last month, a Mexican ceviche with swordfish. Pickled jalapenos, green olives, tomatoes, red onion, black pepper, and Mexican oregano, provided a lovely mix of flavors. We mixed in cubed avocado and cilantro just before serving.

Swordfish and avocado ceviche

[Peter the eater]

I knew there was a ceviche cook-off around here somewhere!

Yesterday afternoon we had a backyard birthday party with around thirty people and I served an icy tray of ceviche shooters:

The night before, I mixed sashimi grade tuna, sea scallops and salmon in grapefruit/lime juice with zest. I added a little salt, sugar and cayenne pepper to taste as well as chopped dill.

All the seafood was super fresh - this is by far the most important part. I broke down the flesh into rather small pieces which makes for consistent and total marination plus it gives you a chance to inspect for things that don't belong.

The grapefruit juice was fine but I think I'll omit the zest next time, too bitter. Some onions or shallots would have been good in the mix. The photo doesn't quite show it but the trio of seafood colors looked great - purple tuna, orange salmon and white scallops.

[Chris Amirault]

Great serving idea. Did the grapefruit and dill play nicely together?

[Peter the eater]

Great serving idea. Did the grapefruit and dill play nicely together?

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Thanks Chris, I think the dill and grapefruit were fully compatible. I think it's best to have a least some allium in the mix - garlic, red onion, scallion, chive, whatever.

Some guests were quite hesitant to slam back an ounce of raw fish never mind what herbs and citrus were used! We got a few converts that day.

[johnnyd]

Some scallops were hand-delivered from a diver friend back in '05 so ceviche was a logical way to go. I posted a play-by-play HERE that I thought new members would like to check out.

I could go for some that right about now...

[Reconstructing Dinner]

I'm so glad I found this thread. I was looking for an appetizer for an upcoming dinner party, and I think ceviche fits the bill perfectly. Sounds like I should keep it simple. Boy Friend is allergic to salmon - can you imagine? - so I will probably go with tuna or red snapper (is that too daring?). Lime juice, minced onion, jalepenos and cilantro sound like a safe bet.

RD

[johnnyd]

Here's one of some clam ceviche seerved with jerk chicken, corn bread, rice n'peas, slaw and stewed collard greens.

It's pretty much the same recipe for me each time: lime juice, garlic, small chili and either shallot or red onion, then cilantro. Local chef does his fresh Maine shrimp (in wintertime only) in a blend of fresh lime juice, fresh orange (valencia, but blood could be good) juice and some rice vinegar. Nice balance going on there.

RD: Red snapper is used in ceviche a lot of places and there seem to be a lot of recipes. I've never tried it but I bet it's good.

[Smithy]

All the seafood was super fresh - this is by far the most important part. I broke down the flesh into rather small pieces which makes for consistent and total marination plus it gives you a chance to inspect for things that don't belong.

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Are there fish or shellfish for which the ceviche treatment isn't enough to make the food safe? I'm thinking particularly of parasites, but also diseases.

[Peter the eater]

All the seafood was super fresh - this is by far the most important part. I broke down the flesh into rather small pieces which makes for consistent and total marination plus it gives you a chance to inspect for things that don't belong.

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Are there fish or shellfish for which the ceviche treatment isn't enough to make the food safe? I'm thinking particularly of parasites, but also diseases.

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Yes, I think there must be plenty of seafood that if you eat it uncooked, well, then you might get into trouble. I'm not energetic enough right now to provide supporting evidence but it's my belief that virtually all seafood parasites that I'm going to come across at my market are completely harmless to humans if ingested alive. If you trust your vendor that it's fresh and handled probably then you're probably okay.

At my Loblaws (Atlantic SuperStore) I've found visible parasites in fresh cod, monkfish and halibut. I just cut them out and cook. For ceviche, I figure if I thinly slice the flesh I'll catch any freeloaders even without a light table.

I'm sure there are some-well established regulations for sashimi restaurants. That would be interesting to know.

[Sugarella]

At my Loblaws (Atlantic SuperStore) I've found visible parasites in fresh cod, monkfish and halibut. I just cut them out and cook. For ceviche, I figure if I thinly slice the flesh I'll catch any freeloaders even without a light table.

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What do they look like?

[johnnyd]

Like this:

This batch of cod was given to me by a fishing charter captain right off the boat.

I hold it up to a kitchen lamp and look for them, coiled up like a spring.

[Chris Amirault]

I'm making shrimp ceviche (lime, serrano, poblano, scallions, cilantro, maybe a dribble of coconut milk, salt) for a party this weekend. The last few times I've made ceviche I've had two liquids: the pickling brine, which I discard, and then a fresh dressing that I add at service. It works really well, as the pickle juice tends to be a bit too salty and somewhat muddy, since the citrus has started to oxidize.

Here's my question. How long can you hold the pickled shrimp before dressing and serving it? I'm wondering, for example, if I can pickle it a day ahead, drain off the brine, and hold it in an air-tight package in the fridge awaiting dressing the next day. Thoughts?

[Dave the Cook]

I think there are two issues: food safety and good service.

For the first, I wouldn't worry. The pickling should provide a large margin of safety -- for anything that acid and salt would affect (note that there are some things that only cooking will handle, but we're talking specifically about uncooked food).

For the second, I'd worry about the effects of a brine even after the brine is removed. Draining will slow down osmosis at the macro level, but won't necessarily halt protein denaturing. So you'll maintain the moisturization and flavoring effects, but the interior of the fish might continue to unravel and become mushy.

One thing to consider is that salt brines aren't very effective above 35 F: maybe you could hold at 40F (or below 25 or so F), which might slow down mush development.

[Chris Amirault]

Hrm. The effects of the brine after the brine is removed: that's a worry. I think I should keep 'em cold and unbrined in the bottom of the fridge an extra day and brine morning of service. Thanks.

[Dave the Cook]

That's what I'd do, too. Most of the time expended in ceviche prep is the waiting. Cutting up fish, squeezing citrus and measuring salt and such is minimal.

[Chris Amirault]

Dave, you were right: they held fine in the coldest part of the fridge until the day of. Brine for about three hours, dumped the liquid, and then dressed lightly with fresh dressing.

[Smithy]

*bump*

 

This was our family's wood-cutting weekend, in which the youngsters come help the oldsters cut, split and stack firewood for the season. It was also our first time seeing each other in over a year due to various life events and inconveniences. We had a lot of elaborate food plans so we could make up for lost time.

 

"Do you know how to make ceviche?" my DIL texted. A relative had caught a monster walleye / pickerel at their cabin and DIL thought it too big to fry properly. 

 

 

She dimly remembered an uncle making ceviche and her enjoying it when she was small, and wondered whether it might change her opinion of fish. To her, fish is a thing everyone in the world around her adores and she has to deal with...she's an excellent cook, but long since has lost her enthusiasm for the creature.

 

I dug into this Cook-off to refresh my memory of freshwater fish ceviche, then asked her whether it had been frozen. Yes, it had: the filets were skinned, vacuum packed and frozen the day that fish left its watery home. That satisfied me about potential parasites. Still, I diced the fish finely - partly for textural reasons but also to ensure there weren't any nasties hiding in there.

 

The diced fish marinated in the juice of 6 limes for 3 or 4 hours, until I liked the texture. In the meantime, I chopped red onion, part of one small red hot pepper, a bunch of heirloom tomatoes languishing on my counter (shame on me) and a perfectly ripe avocado. A touch of salt and pepper went into the mix. Unfortunately I'd run out of limes and had to use some of the drained brine. Unfortunately I'd forgotten the cilantro! I remedied both those shortcomings today, after we'd all unstiffened enough from our unaccustomed exercise to get to a grocery store.

 

 

Success! She who doesn't like fish likes this!  "It doesn't even taste fishy!" she proclaimed. High praise indeed.

[gfweb]

Any concerns about using freshwater fish uncooked?  In the back of my head is a ban on them for sushi because of all the poo that's in freshwater.

 

[Smithy]

29 minutes ago, gfweb said:

Any concerns about using freshwater fish uncooked?  In the back of my head is a ban on them for sushi because of all the poo that's in freshwater.

 

 

The lakes up here are pretty clean, and the walleye come from open waters, not near the shore where giardia is most likely to occur. The fish filets were cleaned well too, with clean water (both before and after freezing) so I wouldn't worry too much about giardia. The same handling considerations apply to fecal coliform. I admit I couldn't find any assurance that an acid bath like lime juice would kill the cysts if they were present. If I'm misinformed, please feel free to set me straight. (You probably know more about microbiology than I do.) This is the first time I've done ceviche with a freshwater fish, but it's been done uptopic (with some discussion regarding parasites) and within our own family.