Good Western European, American Cooking

[Dave Hatfield]

Hey, sorry everyone, but I'd like to see more good 'plain' cooking on the forums.

I see great Thai, Sous vide (yeah, yeah, yeah!), Mish mash (ah, I meant to say fusion), I've belholded far to many butts and No I'm not a cool kid from anywhere. I've nothing against any of this, but I'd like to see more good food that uses ingredients available easily to most of us. Food that uses imagination coupled with common sense to achieve results & does not try to be trendy or reach way too far to make an impression. No, I'm not a geat fan of foams & I've been to E' Bulli & won't go again. I'll trade a solid menu for a 'tasting' menu any day.

I've been cooking for over 50 years & spent 40 years of my professional life travelling the world & eating at top restaurants. The best aren't trendy; they're just plain good with a respect for their ingredients and their customers. Can't say that for many of the latest 'fashions'.

Having had my little rant I'd like to see if anyone agrees with me.

If so I'd like to see see a thread that concentrates upon food that is good, wholesome and cookable by the average person who likes to cook, has a reasonable amount of skill, doesn't want to spend a fortune doing it & has Ok, but not unlimited access to ingredients.

Let me know. Pro? Con? Either way I'd like to see a good discussion. Think I'm a nethanderal jerk? Let me know, don't be shy. Think I'm a voice of reason? Let me know that too.

Let's have at it & see where a good healthy discussion ends up.

[markemorse]

Well.......

I'm new here, and I haven't stuck my nose in every dark corner of every forum yet, but I'd say there's plenty of simple, inspired, largely traditional cooking on some of the most popular threads (the Dinner thread springs to mind, as do the Cooking and Cuisine of Italy threads, and most of the foodblogs, largely featuring good cooks cooking at home under normal living constraints).

But If you're talking about impassioned debate/detailed documentation, I'd agree that there's not a lot of it going on over "Good Western European + American cooking" (comparatively speaking). I'm inclined to attempt a (potentially wrongheaded) comparison between tastes in food and tastes in music...and the difference between someone with an insatiable (perhaps compulsive) appetite for newer/fresher sounds and tastes on one hand, and on the other hand someone who prefers to hear/taste better and better versions of old favorites, with or without slight twists and tweaks.

How does that apply here? I think you've got both kinds of tasters here, but the edge-skaters are more likely to be posting about their discoveries/quests/obsessions, simply because most of the time it actually IS a quest of some sort, and as soon as there's new ground to cover, well then let's get to covering it!

I probably fall into this latter category....nonetheless, I'd love a thread that focused on the classics, because they're pretty exotic to me.

mark

Edited September 3, 2006 by markemorse (log)

[Anna N]

. . .

If so I'd like to see see a thread that concentrates upon food that is good, wholesome and cookable by the average person who likes to cook, has a reasonable amount of skill, doesn't want to spend a fortune doing it & has Ok, but not unlimited access to ingredients.

. . .

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Gee, I dunno know, Dave, but it seems to me that we cover this kind of food pretty darn well already.

Recently I recall threads on:

Boneless, skinless chicken breasts

Pan fried steak

Braising - (the Molly Stevens book)

Fish and chips - the old-fashioned kind

Potato salad

The Paula Wolfert threads are often about accessible dishes

Chufi did a whole series of dishes from Holland that rarely call for exotic ingredients

We did a year of soups

There was a long thread on chicken thighs not so long ago

Basic cakes, tarts and classic desserts have been covered and the list goes on.

For many of us I imagine it's the kind of food we cook more often than not. Or am I missing something here?

[JAZ]

Gee, I dunno know, Dave, but it seems to me that we cover this kind of food pretty darn well already.

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What she said.

Perhaps you've missed

• Cook-Off I: Cassoulet
  
• Cook-Off III: Gumbo
  
• Cook-Off V: Fried Chicken
  
• Cook-Off X: Meatloaf and Burgers
  
• Cook-Off XI: Ice Cream, Gelato, Sorbet, and Sherbet
  
• Cook-Off XII: Composed Salads
  
• Cook-Off XIII: Fresh and Stuffed Pasta, including Gnocchi
  
• Cook-Off XV: Chili
  
• Cook-Off XVI: Potato Pancakes
  
• Cook-Off XVII: Sausages
  
• Cook-Off XIX: Eggs, Beaten, With Stuff In Them
  
• Cook-Off XX: Chowdah/Chowder
  
• Cook-Off XXI: Risotto
  
• Cook-Off XXIII: Crêpes
  

Or there are these topics on roasted chicken. Can't get much more basic than that:

• "Roasting Chicken, The gospel according to e-gulleteers . ."
  
• "Roasting a chicken, Help"
  
• "Roasted Chicken - What I did, And a question: Whole chickens vs parts"
  
• "Roasting a chicken, it's about time"
  
• "Back to Basics: Roasting Chicken"
  

Or if those don't measure up, try these:

Potato salad, Macaroni and Cheese, or Soups.

Then there are these eGCI courses:

Stocks and Sauces Course Introduction, Intro Q&A, Simmering Unit, Simmering Q&A, Straining, Defatting and Reducing Unit, Reduction Q&A, Stock-Based Sauces Unit, and Sauces Q&A

Non-Stock-Based Sauces Course and Q&A

Cream Sauces Course and Q&A

All About Eggs Introduction, FAQ, The Wit & Wisdom of Eggs, Hard-Cooked Eggs Course and Q&A, Poaching Eggs Course and Q&A, Omelettes and More Course and Q&A, Souffles Course and Q&A, Cooking Eggs With With the Pros Course and Q&A

Pasta Around the Mediterranean Course and Q&A

Stuffed Pastas Introduction, Course on Pansotti, Tortelloni and and Raviolo, Course on Tortelli, Ravioli & Cappelletti, and Q&A

The Potato Primer Course and Q&A

Risotto Course and Q&A

Leaf Salads Course and Q&A

And that's just off the top of my head.

[Dave Hatfield]

Ok folks. Maybe I'm just getting grouchy in my dotage.

I didn't mean to imply that eGullet had totally gone to pot. There's all kind of wonderful stuff on the site and it keeps coming.

I was ranting about my perception that there has been a lot of 'fringe' madness of late. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe Its just a symptom of summer silliness.

For many of us I imagine it's the kind of food we cook more often than not. Or am I missing something here?

All true, but how often do most of us make exotic foams, cook sous vide or use sodium whatsit.

I think you've got both kinds of tasters here, but the edge-skaters are more likely to be posting about their discoveries/quests/obsessions, simply because most of the time it actually IS a quest of some sort, and as soon as there's new ground to cover, well then let's get to covering it!

Mark, welcome! You make a good point. I just get impatient with the "ingredient too far" syndrome & what I see as novelty for the sake of it.

[markemorse]

hey Dave, I understand...I'm just thinking that we don't get any innovation without a little trial and error...some of this food will stand the test of time and some of it won't, but I do believe that as long as the results taste good and are enjoyable to eat, the refinements of some of these creative concepts will become part of the adventurous cook's standard repetoire moving forward. And what's happening here on eGullet is documentation, discussion, criticism, and in some cases, refinement....all necessary steps for sensible innovation to become integrated with tradition.

mem

EDIT: a grotesque pre-coffee post was excised by me.

Edited September 4, 2006 by markemorse (log)

[Torrilin]

I was ranting about my perception that there has been a lot of 'fringe' madness of late. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe Its just a symptom of summer silliness.

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Well, I haven't been doing much fringe cooking. But I haven't been doing much *interesting* cooking either. Roast chicken, nachos, quesadillas, roast beef, salads and peach cobbler mostly... all of which I have very solid go to methods for. Not much to post about when you're doing that kind of cooking. And by this time, I've posted my method for pretty much every one of 'em. And nachos don't count, since any method that calls for half a jar of salsa doesn't count as real cooking in my book.

Now I *do* have a hankering for chicken soup with dumplings. And I don't think we've got a thread on that *hatches plot for this week's menu*. I'm sure there are other tasty plain cooking dishes that we haven't discussed. So if it feels like there's too much frou, throw in some anti-frou

Emily

[C. sapidus]

Hey, sorry everyone, but I'd like to see more good 'plain' cooking on the forums.

In 1686, the Thai ambassador traveled to France and recorded the following impression of the food: wine “helps give taste to the food which otherwise be insipid to our palates; here are few spices and much meat, and an attraction of quantity replaces piquant wholesomeness” (source: David Thompson's Thai Food).

Sorry, but I agree with the 17th-century Thai ambassador. I enjoy the lovely photos of "good 'plain' cooking", but that’s not what I like to eat. To be honest, I learned to cook so that I could avoid “plain” food. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh -- I'm not judging anyone, just stating my preference.

Reading about "hypermodern" food is interesting, but I'm not inspired to make it or seek it out.

I'd like to see more good food that uses ingredients available easily to most of us.

Um, by “most of us”, do you mean Americans living in rural France? Access to ingredients depends greatly upon location and an internet connection.

I'd like to see see a thread that concentrates upon food that is good, wholesome and cookable by the average person who likes to cook, has a reasonable amount of skill . . .

Lots of Asian, Mexican, and Caribbean food certainly meets that description.

. . . doesn't want to spend a fortune doing it . . .

A bottle of fish sauce costs $1.59 (1.24 Euros), a bag of dried chilies costs $3.59 (2.80 Euros), and each will enliven food for months. A week’s supply of fresh chilies, basil, cilantro, garlic, ginger, and limes costs a few bucks at the grocery store. In contrast, one can certainly spend a small fortune on foie gras, filet mignon, cheese, olive oil, or balsamic vinegar.

. . . & has Ok, but not unlimited access to ingredients.

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Living in a fairly small town, I can drive 5 minutes and find ingredients for Mexican, Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, and Indian cooking. I greatly appreciate this good fortune.

[Dave Hatfield]

Hey guys, I hear you and you say things that I agree with. BUT - I'm still not there.

When I say simple I really mean good honest food that makes the most of the ingredients available LOCALLY. When I lived in Rhode Island I cooked more lobster & chowder. In the Uk it was beef & root vegatables. In California we did a lot more Mexican & Asian.Here in France its what's in season (see today's post in the France forum about seasonable cooking. There's a lady I admire!) and, yes, its cheeses and fois gras and confit BECAUSE that's what's available. To see my definition of simple cooking have a look at the recipies I've posted on my blog below. Nothing difficult.

What I rarely see work is mixing things up too much. Most cusines are based upon local stuff. For a reason, it was available & people wanted to make the most of it. Its only pretty recently that you can get almost anything anywhere any time. Unfortunately, much of it when out of place is pretty awful. (gruesome example; Febuary supermarket tomatoes. UGH!) Thus the whole fusion thing rarely in my opinion comes off. I'm all for the experimentation, but how about posting the abject failures? "I tried this greek, nicagragian, figian pork roast the other day & it sucked!" Never seen one like that.

I love the whole eGullet concept & admire many of the folks who post for their cooking and their infinite generousity in helping others. I do, however, get frustrated when I see or at least think I see the 'fringe' getting far too much attention.

Maybe there was & i missed it a thread on food philosophy; if not maybe we need one.

Meanwhile, its dinner time & I'm off to grill local Toulouse sausages to eat with the yellow string beans given to us by our neighbor, accompanied by local vine ripened tomatoes with vinegrette & my own grown basil. We'll have some cheese & drink some nice white wine that comes from about 20 miles away.

No foam tonight. sigh!

[Daniel]

I've belholded far to many butts and No I'm not a cool kid from anywhere.

I dont understand.. Smoking food is very American and there is nothing more common then a pork butt.. A lot more common then Toulouse sausage is for anyone outside of Rural France I guess..

Also you referred to Ling and Henry's Blog.. They even showed the market where they bought all the local foods there were making.. I am confused by the examples you are using..

I think you need to look around Egullet more before making generalizations..

Edited September 5, 2006 by Daniel (log)

[mrbigjas]

Meanwhile, its dinner time & I'm off to grill local Toulouse sausages to eat with the yellow string beans given to us by our neighbor, accompanied by local vine ripened tomatoes with vinegrette & my own grown basil. We'll have some cheese & drink some nice white wine that comes from about 20 miles away.

No foam tonight. sigh!

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i'm not sayin you're wrong, i'm just sayin if you made that cheese into a foam and the wine into a gelee, you might enjoy them both more. hahahahahaha

anyway, you know, i had an epiphany about yellow string beans this year. i mean, i eat them all the time, along with green beans. they're a perfectly acceptable vegetable in my book, but nothing i search out. but this year my parents grew them, and picked them young, and have been supplying us with as many as we can eat. and the difference between these beans and the standard supermarket green beans is night and day. they're fantastic. we steam them and toss with butter and parsley. or i braise them in olive oil and load them up with piles of basil and mint. or i boil them, shock and serve cold with a mustardy vinaigrette.

i've also stir fried them with seasoned pork, shanghai style. and last night i made that laotian salad from hot sour salty sweet, with the peanut/chili/lime/fish/dried shrimp dressing.

there's no way you can make them that these beans don't taste good. i haven't gotten tired of them yet.

my god, it's depressing that summer is nearly over.

[Anna N]

. . .

Most cusines are based upon local stuff. For a reason, it was available & people wanted to make the most of it. . . .

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So, Dave, under your "eat local" philosophy, what do you suggest we eat in Ontario in February? Pemmican? And heck, there are worse places than this to live in February. Such a philosphy only holds in temperate climates.

[Pontormo]

Dave, it's a shame that it is too late to send you to the first exhibition of Impressionist paintings, the Armory Show or the premier performance of Stravinsky's Rites of Spring!

Just kidding, honest. Almost everything else I'd be tempted to say was said by others responding to your cranky reactionism and what used to be called Western bias until we of dangling earrings and Birkenstocks started to question how you can fit N. America & W. Europe under the rubric "Western" while excluding parts south of Texas.

I suspect that the shadow cast by El Bulli and others who experiment with new technologies is rather slight here at eGullet. Bacon seems to be the site's pet food, with Sriracha a distant second. At the Dinner Thread, especially, you'll see all kinds of simple, complex, unadorned, elaborate, traditional and avant-garde meals received with the kind of graciousness that Miss Manners would applaud.

Since you write with passion as well as self-depricating humor, perhaps you should start a new cooking thread in the French regional forum where expatriates play a considerable role. If I'm not mistaken, that area of the board is dominated by the usual inquiries and reports of visitors and diners. Just because French culture continues to dominate our notions of Cuisine doesn't mean that makers of simple crepes and charcuterie should turn exclusively to this particular forum if they wish to talk about their dinners and picnics. When you're got one host's monthly report of marketplaces and another's considerable culinary skills, it makes sense to integrate the two interests.

[Dave Hatfield]

. . .

Most cusines are based upon local stuff. For a reason, it was available & people wanted to make the most of it. . . .

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So, Dave, under your "eat local" philosophy, what do you suggest we eat in Ontario in February? Pemmican? And heck, there are worse places than this to live in February. Such a philosphy only holds in temperate climates.

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Anna No I'm not such a puritan as that, I could suggest that everyone in Ontario do what the Indians did which was to preserve foods in the summer to last the winter.

In the old days everybody relatively temperate climate or not did a lot of preserving.

My real point was/is that mixing cuisines doesn't work to well. For instance, I don't think a confit de canard curry would work too well as a 'fusion' dish. An extreem example

I admit, but only marginally so when compared to some of the things I've seen.

[barolo]

I do, however, get frustrated when I see or at least think I see the 'fringe' getting far too much attention.

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I think there are far more posts here devoted to the kind of food you say you want discuss than this "fringe" you are so concerned about. You need to drink a couple of glasses of your local wine and get some perspective.

I was going to add more but Pontmoro has said it already, and better than I would.

[Pontormo]

[My real point was/is that mixing cuisines doesn't work to well. For instance, I don't think a confit de canard curry would work too well as a 'fusion' dish. An extreem example

I admit, but only marginally so when compared to some of the things I've seen.

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Yeah, I went back and noticed this was indeed your main point.

Then, my main point would be that culinary history, like just about any rich history I can think of, is not insular.

I'm not just paying homage to the glories of the Silk Route, though certainly you can go back further in time.

Imagine France without sugar, Vienna without coffee...hell, Italy without France, France without Italy and Italy without the tomato.

Would the streets of New York smell so sweet were its kitchens not sites of one fusion on top of another?

[Chris Amirault]

Others have taken up the assumption of too much "fringe" around these parts. I'll focus on another aspect of this topic:

I love the whole eGullet concept & admire many of the folks who post for their cooking and their infinite generousity in helping others. I do, however, get frustrated when I see or at least think I see the 'fringe' getting far too much attention.

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I'll bite. Why is that frustrating exactly? Food discussion around here is, wonderfully, not a zero-sum game. So why are you perturbed if members are excited to tweak temps and times for sous vide moose or adjust the texture of their cardoon and cocoa noodles off in a corner of eG Forums?

[mrbigjas]

Since you write with passion as well as self-depricating humor, perhaps you should start a new cooking thread in the French regional forum where expatriates play a considerable role.

"french regional cooking: my nerdy new years resolution II"!

[Dave Hatfield]

Ah, yet again I get put in my place by several of you. I'm loving all of this discussion and getting to hear some interesting viewpoints that hadn't occurred to me. Keep it up!

Perhaps I am reactionary, but I still think that there's too much experimentation without much thought going on. Some of the ingredient combinations I see make the mind boggle. As I said earlier I'd like to hear about the failures or in some cases have it admitted that just maybe that cool new flavor combination wasn't so hot after all.

Naturally, cooking evolves; ingredients evolve and new things are invented. But Moore's law does not apply to the culinary world. Lentement as the French would say. Take it easy & don't try to out clever each other.

As for a French cooking thread I'd not be the person to run it there are far better qualified people than I. Besides French cooking overall isn't necessarily even my favorite national cusine.

My contribution to things is to be somewhat crankily outspoken and to contribute a modicum of experience as one who has cooked for a long time and has eaten in at last count over 36 countries.

Besides a good discussion is food for the soul. Especially when smoked, foamed and cooked sous vide in duck fat.

[Anna N]

OK, Dave, what about this

Would Italian cooking have evolved if someone hadn't experimented with this weird ingredient called "a tomato" and added it to the local ingredients?

Would Indian cooking be what it is if someone else had not tried adding potatoes to the mix?

There are countless examples of cuisines that evolved based on non-local ingredients and cooks willing to give it go.

As for preserving summer's produce, Native Canadians had few resources to preserve much besides game and fish and many of them starved in the winters!

(Keep being cranky and starting good discussions!)

[hjshorter]

I'll bite. Why is that frustrating exactly? Food discussion around here is, wonderfully, not a zero-sum game. So why are you perturbed if members are excited to tweak temps and times for sous vide moose or adjust the texture of their cardoon and cocoa noodles off in a corner of eG Forums?

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I dunno, this is sort of feeding into my dissatisfaction with the dinner thread. It used to be just what folks are having for dinner. Now it seems to be a little..."show-offy" with an x-treme closeup picture for everyone's admiration.

[snowangel]

I'll bite. Why is that frustrating exactly? Food discussion around here is, wonderfully, not a zero-sum game. So why are you perturbed if members are excited to tweak temps and times for sous vide moose or adjust the texture of their cardoon and cocoa noodles off in a corner of eG Forums?

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I dunno, this is sort of feeding into my dissatisfaction with the dinner thread. It used to be just what folks are having for dinner. Now it seems to be a little..."show-offy" with an x-treme closeup picture for everyone's admiration.

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Heather, wander back over to dinner! and look for my posts. For the past month, we've eaten nothing except grilled meat, sweet corn, home-grown tomatoes, green beans, etc.

And, I think the definition of "local" is changing. The Asian vegetables once only seen in pictures are being grown locally, and I have to walk a shorter distance at the supermarket to get Tiparos fish sauce than ketchup!

[MissAmy]

I LOVE seeing what the "cool kids" on this board are doing. I find adventures with sodium alginate (sp?) fascinating, even though I don't have the space, equipment, or time to do it myself. It's new and fresh and interesting.

Even if I see something that I find wouldn't work, or seems odd, it's good to see people experimenting and having fun with food. What's wrong with that? Food is an important part of life, and if we can't have fun with it and experiment and enjoy it, what's the point?

[Daniel]

Besides a good discussion is food for the soul. Especially when smoked, foamed and cooked sous vide in duck fat.

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How is foam and sous vide grouped with smoking? I really dont think there is anything more "American" then smoked food or BBQ.. Perhaps you arent aware of American BBQ.. But Dave its nothing new, cutting edge or fancy.. You are essentially taking the least desirable cuts of meats and through slow cooking changing the texture and flavors..

Have you had Tea Smoked Duck before or Brisket, or Ribs, or pulled pork? Sorry if you dont like it, but dont try to call it fringe.. There is this little bbq sauce called KC Masterpiece that sells millions of bottles a year.. There is a Chain Called Famous Dave BBQ that smokes food and did 102 million last year.. The Native American's have been smoking Salmon before America was a country..

[Daniel]

I'll bite. Why is that frustrating exactly? Food discussion around here is, wonderfully, not a zero-sum game. So why are you perturbed if members are excited to tweak temps and times for sous vide moose or adjust the texture of their cardoon and cocoa noodles off in a corner of eG Forums?

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I dunno, this is sort of feeding into my dissatisfaction with the dinner thread. It used to be just what folks are having for dinner. Now it seems to be a little..."show-offy" with an x-treme closeup picture for everyone's admiration.

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I love the dinner thread.. Not just because its one of the most positive and friendly places on Egullet.. But its also because people are taking pictures of the food they make.. There is nothing more show offy then that.. In fact the whole point is to show off what they make.. Extremely close ups and all.. I have yet to be able to show my dinners properly from great distances..

Edited September 5, 2006 by Daniel (log)