Setting high standards: food discussion forums

[Gifted Gourmet]

Chowhound updated information

article here on this ...

Jim Leff interview here

Jim Leff, has announced that CNET has agreed to purchase Chowhound and will be rebuilding the online chow community on new software and giving it a badly-needed facelift.

[enrevanche]

Jim Leff, has announced that CNET has agreed to purchase Chowhound and will be rebuilding the online chow community on new software and giving it a badly-needed facelift.

There is a good, fairly complete article about this in the Village Voice:

Chowhound sold to CNET Networks (Village Voice, Nina Lalli, 11 March 2006)

Edited March 13, 2006 by enrevanche (log)

[Kent Wang]

On the one hand, I'd rather see Chowhound merge into eGullet but since that is unlikely to happen I hope CNet will give Chowhound a major software upgrade. Better forum software would be sufficient but if they were really ambitious, something like Citysearch would be best for catagorizing restaurants and ratings. The problem with Citysearch though is that the reviews are terrible, usually from shills or people with poor taste.

[TAPrice]

The problem with Citysearch though is that the reviews are terrible, usually from shills or people with poor taste.

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Not always the case. Pableaux Johnson, a fine writer who often appears in the NYT, handles a lot of Citysearch's New Orleans writing.

I'm glad to see the upgrade for Chowhound. It's less satisfying than eGullet, but it fills a niche for me.

[Fat Guy]

Todd, you're referring to the "Citysearch Editorial Profiles." I'm sure Kent is referring to the "User Reviews." The editorial profiles are not bad. I've done some writing for CitySearch in New York. They pay for two visits and they fact check and edit. There are problems with the editorial profiles -- they're so abbreviated that it doesn't matter if they're written by Herman Melville they're still going to be pretty useless -- but they're not the undifferentiated crap represented by the user reviews.

I think the notion of buying and selling web communities is flawed. You can sell a database, you can sell a brand name, you can sell a mailing list, but you can't sell a community. While there's some inertia in anything, the reality is that if people wake up one day and don't like what they see, they'll leave or, worse, they'll become hostile and cause no end of trouble. There's no real cost to switching communities.

What I've noticed about the various Chowhound announcements and interviews is that nobody is articulating a vision for anything. They're just saying they're going to redesign the site and change nothing. But they're also saying Chowhound has been a failure as a business venture. Surely they don't think it's going to become a success just because it gets a redesign and a search engine, and surely CNet isn't buying it because they want it to continue to be a failed venture. So somebody, somewhere is planning to change something in a big way. Once we learn what that is -- maybe it will become more like CitySearch, or maybe it will become more like MySpace or whatever -- we'll have a better idea of the direction of this thing.

[TAPrice]

Todd, you're referring to the "Citysearch Editorial Profiles." I'm sure Kent is referring to the "User Reviews." The editorial profiles are not bad.

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You, sir, are correct. Thanks for catching that. The reader reviews are crap.

For me, the only good thing about Chowhound is the mass of people. If I'm traveling, I'm guaranteed to get some tips. Some of the regional boards on eGullets are a little thin. On the other hand, I trust any tips from eGullet. It's the old quantity vs. quality issue.

Given how dependent the board is on members, I'm surprise there hasn't been more of a vision presented. We'll see. I have such an appetite for food discussion, that I'm happy to see as many different sites as possible. I hope they do well.

[Daniel]

Chowhound sucks, as does there community.. The whole board consists of people reposting and rehashing there same anonymous opinions.. If it werent for the words Katz's, Grand Sichuan, Babbo, or best BBQ, the site would have nothing to talk about.. I look from time to time, only to see the same conversations from 2 years ago.. Need a quick recommendation for a group of women looking for a "sex in the city" type place, Or where to take a 12 year old for her birthday, then you can listen to the same 5 choices..

As Jim Leff leaves, so does anything worth while on that site..

[Fat Guy]

I think a lot of the repetition is on account of the lack of survivable threaded discussions like we see on most modern message board software. That's going to be pretty easy to fix, though the import of the old database will be challenging -- I imagine the first creative conflict will arise when CNet says "Let's just put all the old posts in an archive and start fresh with a new system." I don't think it's accurate to say there's no useful information in Chowhound's discussions. Some of the content is excellent. I wish we had that level of coverage of the "cheap ethnic eats" scenes in various cities. Also, in some places the local Chowhound communities do pretty well with content beyond cheap eats. California is particularly strong. I do think the whole enterprise is woefully limited and flawed, but maybe CNet can fix that. I'm wondering how that can happen without killing the goose that laid the golden egg, though.

[Chris Cognac]

Its going to be interesting to see how things change and compare them with the changes ,good and bad, that occurred w eG. I think its a natural progression of things in the electronic global age in which we live..

[TAPrice]

I think its a natural progression of things in the electronic global age in which we live..

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I've been told that even our ancestors lived in a constantly changing world. I, for one, refuse to believe that there was progress before alternating power.

[Kent Wang]

I think it will difficult to make Chowhound profitable, and as a corporation that's exactly what CNet is going to try to do. I could definitely see their attempt to turn a profit wrecking the community.

I agree that there is a lot rehashing of the same threads at Chowhound, the moderation there is also very passive which leads to the disorganization. Hopefully improved forum software and some policy changes will fix that problem.

Judging from just the Texas forum there does seem to be a lot of posters that are willing to state definitively what is The Best Thai/Chinese/BBQ/etc. when they've only been to a fraction of the worthwhile restaurants in those genres. Lack of experience is fine but misrepresenting that and therefore giving out dubious advice is not.

I had a great idea for a kickass Citysearch-like system that works without spending tons of money on editorial reviews: peer-moderation of user reviews. This is similar to how Digg works. Users that consistently post good reviews will get their reviews ranked higher and their ratings of restaurants will have greater weight. Another feature that can be added is similar to Netflix's recommendations, after you rate a few restaurants the system will compare your ratings with other users who have similar taste (and made similar ratings) and give you recommendations. I think it's a pretty good idea and if I lived in NY, SF or LA I'd totally start something like it myself.

[alacarte]

Fascinating...it seems like an odd fit given CNET's high tech "Consumer Reports" type model. I can't (yet) see what's in it for CNET.

--Anyone know how much was the site bought for?

--Why isn't there an announcement on CNET.com?

--Was eGullet approached by CNET as well?

[Fat Guy]

We can't be acquired, because we're a not-for-profit corporation. A couple of years ago, when we were still acquirable, we were approached by venture capitalists and other investors -- never CNet, but other media and technology companies that have bought up web operations -- but our analyses indicated that selling to them would kill the goose that laid the golden egg. I don't know what Chowhound got, but we were hearing a few million dollars in cash and stock, although when you start splitting it up and factoring in that the stock will probably be worthless before it vests it winds up being maybe enough money to buy a nice new car. Our numbers in terms of web traffic are probably a bit lower than Chowhound's, but from a corporate acquisitions standpoint we have a more demographically appealing (as in wealthier) community. They probably got about what we would have. But we didn't want to go that way. We wanted to pursue our own vision and have our organization outlive the founding generation, so we became a not-for-profit public charity. I could use a new car, though.

[TrishCT]

Chowhound sucks, as does there community.. The whole board consists of people reposting and rehashing there same anonymous opinions..  If it werent for the words Katz's, Grand Sichuan, Babbo, or best BBQ, the site would have nothing to talk about.. I look from time to time, only to see the same conversations from 2 years ago.. Need a quick recommendation for a group of women looking for a "sex in the city" type place, Or where to take a 12 year old for her birthday, then you can listen to the same 5 choices..

As Jim Leff leaves, so does anything worth while on that site..

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Then a lot of people on here suck too, because a number of folks on this board, myself included, also contribute to Chowhound in various ways.

I find Chowhound to be a useful resource, especially when I am traveling. I do not consider it a rival or threat to E-G, the two are totally different and serve different purposes.

We'll see what happens...

[Shalmanese]

What I've noticed about the various Chowhound announcements and interviews is that nobody is articulating a vision for anything. They're just saying they're going to redesign the site and change nothing. But they're also saying Chowhound has been a failure as a business venture. Surely they don't think it's going to become a success just because it gets a redesign and a search engine, and surely CNet isn't buying it because they want it to continue to be a failed venture. So somebody, somewhere is planning to change something in a big way. Once we learn what that is -- maybe it will become more like CitySearch, or maybe it will become more like MySpace or whatever -- we'll have a better idea of the direction of this thing.

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A relevant article from the New York Times (reg required): Hungry Media Companies Find a Meager Menu of Web Sites to Buy

[tommy]

... but from a corporate acquisitions standpoint we have a more demographically appealing (as in wealthier) community.

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curious as to whether there are numbers supporting this, or if it's just a guess.

[Daniel]

Chowhound sucks, as does there community.. The whole board consists of people reposting and rehashing there same anonymous opinions..  If it werent for the words Katz's, Grand Sichuan, Babbo, or best BBQ, the site would have nothing to talk about.. I look from time to time, only to see the same conversations from 2 years ago.. Need a quick recommendation for a group of women looking for a "sex in the city" type place, Or where to take a 12 year old for her birthday, then you can listen to the same 5 choices..

As Jim Leff leaves, so does anything worth while on that site..

←

Then a lot of people on here suck too, because a number of folks on this board, myself included, also contribute to Chowhound in various ways.

I find Chowhound to be a useful resource, especially when I am traveling. I do not consider it a rival or threat to E-G, the two are totally different and serve different purposes.

We'll see what happens...

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I said the community does.. The sum of the parts, not the parts.. Was not directed at you Trish.. Also I use to be on Chowhoud, I even made the book..

Edited March 14, 2006 by Daniel (log)

[Honkman]

Chowhound sucks, as does there community.. The whole board consists of people reposting and rehashing there same anonymous opinions..  If it werent for the words Katz's, Grand Sichuan, Babbo, or best BBQ, the site would have nothing to talk about.. I look from time to time, only to see the same conversations from 2 years ago.. Need a quick recommendation for a group of women looking for a "sex in the city" type place, Or where to take a 12 year old for her birthday, then you can listen to the same 5 choices..

As Jim Leff leaves, so does anything worth while on that site..

←

I disagree with your opinion. To say that the chowhound board consists of people reposting and rehashing there same anonymous opinions is as wrong as saying that egullet posts are the culmination of food writing by the most trustworthy food professionals in the world. Both boards have their advantages and disadvantages and on both boards you have a broad range in terms of quality of posts, or do you really believe that there are not also posts on egullet which are simply crap. ( Which is fine with me because other posters will have different opinions about specific posts). Egullet is a good board for general discussions about every aspect of food whereas chowhound is a better source for good overviews/reviews about restaurants which I think is relative weak on egullet.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Honkman (log)

[Shalmanese]

I've always thought that eGullet caters to people who cook while Chowhound caters to people who eat. Obviously, theres a significant overlap and the boundaries are blurry but there seems to be a much more technique and craft oriented focus here as opposed to review and judging.

[Pan]

I do see what you're saying, but while not everyone who eats cooks, everyone who cooks surely eats, too!

Besides, there are at least a few people here who are like me. I very seldom cook and have restaurant food almost every day. I can think of some other New York-area members who eat restaurant food about as much as I do, and post about it.