Good Midrange Paris restaurants: a dying breed?

[menton1]

I've been to Petit Cour a couple times, and found both the food and service substandard, and the restaurant full of tourists.

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Well, I am a tourist myself in these restaurants! Is that the kiss of death?

It is bad form, IMHO, to be that disdainful of seeing tourists in a restaurant. The key for me is whether a restaurant is "Touristy, wherefore they have become actually non-French, non-Parisian so as to make these tourists feel "at home." Whether the food and service were exemplary here is a matter of discussion. But La Petite Cour as I observed it, was certainly NOT touristy... (The tables all around us were locals)

France is the most touristed country in the world, upwards of 75 Million + per year. Would you prefer that all the tourists stay home?

[Carlsbad]

My impression has always been that there are many very good mid-range restaurants in Paris, but that perspective may be the result of having relatively few such places at home and not having as much time in Paris as I would like. The problem we usually have is trying to pare down the list.

To me, mid-range would be about 60-80E for two without wine. On the past two trips, the places we enjoyed (some twice) within that range are Au Bon Accueil, Bofinger, Aux Lyonnaise, Le Troquet, Mon Vieil Ami, Le Clos Des Gourmets, La Bastide Odéon, Le Pamphlet, La Fontaine de Mars, and A Casaluna. I think the least expensive menu at L'Angle du Faubourg would be within that range. For every mid-range place we visited, there were two more we wanted to try.

We tend to order two or three wines with dinner, and that often runs the total way up. Coming from California, the prices for French wines in Paris seem downright reasonable compared to what we have to pay here, often leading to much higher cost. I agree that the aperitifs can kill you. The two places where I thought we found real wine bargains last trip were L'Angle du Faubourg and Le Pamphlet, where madam helped us pick a 30E white that reminded me a lot of the Condrieu we had the night before for almost twice the price, and a very enjoyable red wine in the 30E range.

[John Talbott]

Thanks for the suggestion on the Bis de Severo Felice. We'll give it a try soon. Always on the lookout for an exceptionnal côte de boeuf.

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I've only heard good things and indeed tried to go a couple of weeks ago but was caught in the Winter Sports vacation school break break.

For a cote de boeuf, have y'all tried Bobosses at le Quincy?

[TarteTatin]

Phrederic-

I don't remember what we had at L'enoteca, but we simply didn't find it very creative.

The center Antipasti was basic, good, but nothing really inspiring.

I think I had sardines, and then pasta, or something....no real bold flavors...

And, it was a bit overpriced for what it was...

Now that I think about it, it wasn't January, but rather a different trip last November. And it was our last meal after a week or so of eating out. So, on the restaurant's side, maybe we were overindulged? Could be...

[pete ganz]

I've been to Petit Cour a couple times, and found both the food and service substandard, and the restaurant full of tourists.

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Well, I am a tourist myself in these restaurants! Is that the kiss of death?

It is bad form, IMHO, to be that disdainful of seeing tourists in a restaurant. The key for me is whether a restaurant is "Touristy, wherefore they have become actually non-French, non-Parisian so as to make these tourists feel "at home." Whether the food and service were exemplary here is a matter of discussion. But La Petite Cour as I observed it, was certainly NOT touristy... (The tables all around us were locals)

France is the most touristed country in the world, upwards of 75 Million + per year. Would you prefer that all the tourists stay home?

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I couldn't agree with you more on this point. I don't understand why some Americans get pissed when there are other Americans in the same restaurant. Do they think that they're the only ones who have heard about it? A good restaurant is a good restaurant, period. As for tips for good mid-level places, we went to L'Os a Moelle in the 15th 2 nights ago and it was fantastic. 38 Euro fixed price menu, 6 courses (thanks John Whiting!). http://www.whitings-writings.com/bistro_reviews/moelle.htm

[Laidback]

Thanks for the suggestion on the Bis de Severo Felice. We'll give it a try soon. Always on the lookout for an exceptionnal côte de boeuf.

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I've only heard good things and indeed tried to go a couple of weeks ago but was caught in the Winter Sports vacation school break break.

For a cote de boeuf, have y'all tried Bobosses at le Quincy?

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John,

I enjoy Le Quincy; perhaps everyone should be warned to come with a big appetite, get there before Bobosse passes on and don't expect to pay by credit card.

Another old spot in the same vein(aged mari/femme, kitschy decor, traditional favorites, no foam) is La Grille, on the border of the 9th&10th. The old man makes a beurre Nantais the way God meant it to be and serves it over a beautiful grilled turbot or coquille St. Jacques.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Laidback (log)

[fresh_a]

menton1,

I don't mind tourists at all (good mannered, informed tourists that is, I am one quite frequently myself), but , if I remembre correctly, I said the place was FULL OF TOURISTS. Another matter altogether.

[menton1]

menton1,

I don't mind tourists at all (good mannered, informed tourists that is, I am one quite frequently myself), but , if I remembre correctly, I said the place was FULL OF TOURISTS. Another matter altogether.

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Sorry, still don't get the logic here. Were they unruly and loud?

It seems that you are an ex-pat youself. (detected some French grammatical errors in your posts) Why the revolt against tourists? (Good for the economy, non?)

[John Talbott]

Hi everyone.

May I remind us all that while we can disagree, be contentious and exercise our first amendment rights, we want to stay on topic and avoid ad hominem statements.

Thanks.

[fresh_a]

No, they were not unruly and loud, but their presence always gives me shiver, as I prefer, when dining in Paris, authentically "Parisian" restaurants. Not places with English menus, nor places where concessions have been made in the cuisine , making it less "authentic".Have you read the new thread?

[pete ganz]

No, they were not  unruly and loud, but their presence always gives me shiver, as I prefer, when dining in Paris, authentically "Parisian" restaurants. Not places with English menus, nor places where concessions have been made in the cuisine , making it less "authentic".Have you read the new thread?

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So basically, you're an American in Paris, but the mere presence of other Americans gives you shiver. This is the part I don't get.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

So basically, you're an American in Paris, but the mere presence of other Americans gives you shiver. This is the part I don't get.

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I think, Pete, that his point is that most people venture from home in order to sample something different from what they can experience in their own communities. Having gone to the trouble and expense of seeking out these 'foreign' experiences, it can be unnerving to find that the language spoken at the next table and, indeed, that of the waiter and the menu, are your own. When, in addition, the cooking is tweeked to meet foreign palates rather than native, and when unusual local specialties appear less and less often on the ardoise, yes, I too feel a shiver coming on.

Fortunately, there are enough restaurants in Paris and throughout France to satisfy all of our tastes. I am quite sure that many Americans would not enjoy the kinds of places we regularly patronize, and I am also well aware and resigned to the fact that when I choose a place with Michelin credits, that I will dine among my countrymen. It is saddening when a favorite is overrun with 'tourists', as we are calling them, but, as I said, there are enough choices to please each of us. As is always good advice, it's good to "know before you go".

[fresh_a]

Amen!

And to Pete Ganz, Why are you calling me an American - I didn't know we knew each other..

Edited March 14, 2006 by fresh_a (log)

[pete ganz]

Amen! 

And to Pete Ganz, Why are you calling me an American - I didn't know we knew each other..

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I have no beef with you my friend, but from what I recall (I have been on this board for a while), you are an American that went to Paris and became a concierge in an upscale hotel. Good for you, I wish you all the best. Please let me know if I'm incorrect.

Margaret,

I am also embarrassed by the "ugly American" when I'm traveling. I have certainly experienced this, but it is rare in my experience. Most Americans in Paris seem to respect where they are. I'm sure fresh_a sees more of this unruly type. My wife and I try our best to learn local customs and a bit of the language of the country when we travel, but it seems that some people, mainly Americans, become perturbed that there are other Americans in the same restaurant. This is what disturbs me. It seems as though they feel they are the ones who deserve the "authentic" native experience, and yet these other Americans are ruining for them. Get real. We all know about these restaurants. If I am not a complete ass, order my dinner in French, and am otherwise trying to be affable, then why get all worked up about it? You are basically in the same position that I'm in...I could say the same about you. If you and fresh_a are talking about the tourists that expect everyone in France to speak English and not conform to any local customs, then I apologize...although it doesn't sound like it from the conversation so far. I'm not trying stir the pot...it's just something that has puzzled me for some time.

I will still visit Paris and go to restaurants in the the future, even if that bothers fresh_a and phredric.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Of course, Pete, what you say is true. If you and I and everyone who is not native to the neighborhood speaks so quietly that none of us can discern the national identity of the other, then I have no beef. Or, to use your phrasing, if one is not a complete ass, orders his meal in French, and is otherwise affable, how would that person even enter my radar? It is not my fear or loathing of loud and overbearing nationals of whatever country, because Americans are not the only heavy handed tourists, it is, as I wrote, the dilution of whatever culture we visit. We visit in order to experience something real, not what the host culture thinks that we want to experience.

I certainly hope that you will continue to visit Paris and elsewhere. If you pm us beforehand, it will probably be easier for us to meet, because I'm sure that neither your speech nor your behavior will identify you.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Margaret Pilgrim (log)

[pierre45]

Of course, Pete, what you say is true.  If you and I and everyone who is not native to the neighborhood speaks so quietly that none of us can discern the national identity of the other, then I have no beef.  Or, to use your phrasing, if one is not a complete ass, orders his meal in French, and is otherwise affable, how would that person even enter my radar? It is not my fear or loathing of loud and overbearing nationals of whatever country, because Americans are not the only heavy handed tourists, it is, as I wrote, the dilution of whatever culture we visit.  We visit in order to experience something real, not what the host culture thinks that we want to experience.

I certainly hope that you will continue to visit Paris and elsewhere.  If you pm us beforehand, it will probably be easier for us to meet, because I'm sure that neither your speech nor your behavior will identify you. 

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Wait for the moment when the chinese tourists start arriving on mass.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Wait for the moment when the chinese tourists start arriving on mass.

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That's funny. We have felt more comfortable with Asian tourists than American because they seem to do their homework better and are often ahead of our information curve.

[Laidback]

We have rented an apt. in the 9th for the month of April, and found one of Phearless Phrederic'srecommendations phabulous. The name is Charlain and it is exactly what I search for in France; traditional menu, pride of product, careful cuisine, and an excellent winelist with affordable to amazing selections. If you are`searching for foams and ice creams with garlic, thyme, Basil,etc. then keep on searching, but if you crave traditional cuisine at reasonable prices with a wine list that allows flexibility, this may be your place. I mentioned to the owner that Phrederic had recommended it and he beamed and showed me the back of the wine menu crediting Phrederic for his input. I had an entree of baked quail eggs with cubes of foie gras and ciboulettes(Phrederic,correct me if I err as I scribble from memory) and a memorable magret de canard entier with a confit of shallots with a mure sauce served with potatoes cooked in goose fat. My wife had foie gras with pain d'epice and then escalope de veau Normande with fresh mushrooms. These dishes are all too traditional for Gagnaire afficionados but perfect if you have "been there done that" and prefer cuisine more in keeping with 60+ year old palates. We had an amazing Bordeaux, a 1998 Chateaux Croizet-Bages for €50, which may have been overkill for our modest selections, but at these prices one can splurge a bit on the grape.

Many thanks, Phrederic and phear not to offer more traditional recommendations in this genre. You can see the photos of our selections at: share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8AauWLhm2ZNGJ_

Edited April 4, 2006 by Laidback (log)

[phrederic]

I'm overjoyed you liked the Charlain, Laidback. And very happy you're in our part of town. We're in the eastern 17th. Little Senegal.

The restaurant they previously ran in the rue des batignolles near the rue des dames was good. But the pressures of mostly young, "hip" clients more interested in dimly-lit rooms with hip-hop lounge music and lots of exoticism on the plate than in something as banal as, say, food, made it hard for them to keep the attention focused on what they know and love; a sort of gastronomie rustique. Now, they are really getting into their culinary stride. Alain and Charlène are still experimenting but I think it is really going to be a great place. Thursday, Friday and Saturday they were completely full-up. For a restaurant less than a month old--with virtually no press--that is a positive sign. Alain worked for Senderens, then group Flo before wanting to spread his white-apron wings on his own with a touch of his native Alsace in the stork-infested winds. If you want to see him wax enthusiastic, ask him about our Easter dinner last year at L'Espérance (Marc Meneau's place in Vézélay). I keep expecting him to do a Grand Theft Recipe.

As to other suggestions I'll reiterate some from earlier in this thread along with a few others, with added contact info. (Hope nobody get's too upset that I'm repeating things. It sometimes seems hard to find relevant address and phone #'s on egullet amid the plethora of informatory threads. They seem to get tangled in knots. As I've got an Alexander complex I'll just hack through it. Also I can't untie it because I can't figure out how to edit my original post. )

Le Charlain

23 rue Clauzel

Paris 9

01 48 78 74 40

Brand new place. Inventive traditionnal, but still solid quality, quantity and atmosphere. The Gingerbread Macarroon with the house Foie Gras is amazing. The Jurasienne de Veau great and still filling. The winelist has 18 euros vdp for the budget but always a large range of wines from the Gaillard Condrieu for the Foie Gras to reasonable 40 euro Margaux for the entrecote..all the way up to very mature Mouton Lafitte and Latour. I wish there were more places like this.

Au Crus de Bourgogne

3 rue Bachaumont

Paris 2

01 42 33 48 24

Ok. This is one of the exceptions. In the many years I've been eating here the quality has remained consistently great. The prices are reasonable, but cost what it takes to keep it up. Maybe a little boring, not overly inventive, but always very good. The winelist could be bigger, but there is always a puligny or chassagne for the fish, always a decent cote rotie or something cote de nuits for the meat. The Sole is still fabulous, simple and to the point. The Lobster thursdays a steal. And when, in season they do the millefeuilles de fraises des bois, stay away. It all belongs to me and I don't want to share.

Le Villaret

13 rue Ternaux

Paris 11

01 43 57 89 76

I loved this place as a solid, inventive source of semi-affordable gastronomy and wine. The rognons de Veau, the Pierre Gimmonet 1er cru Champagne for a pittance etc. When the "old man" bowed out I thought it might actually get better. But the last 4 times there it has gone from bad to worse as the prices keep growing and the service has become incompentent-yet-sneering. 2 bad pieces of fish in a row take some forgiving. But good fish is pricey and when the restaurant starts cheating it is always one of the first places you can tell. The wine list is still the reason to come.

Le Repaire de Cartouche

8 Bvd des Filles du Calvaire entrance in the rue St. Sebastien

Paris 11

01 47 00 25 86

Very good wine list, fabulous patés and terrine (especially whatever the dish up to you to wet your appetite daily), succulent sanglier, gargantuan pave de cerf, the best pot a la creme since my adopted Norman aunt made 'em 22 years ago! And those little cans of sablets au beurre... Well if you know it, you've got to like it. Don't you? Reasonable prices for the quality. If only the service wasn't so intermittent....

Alsaco

10 r Condorcet

Paris 9

01 45 26 44 3

Okay Patricia Wells and company are always rediscovering Klaus' place. And sure, it has off nights. But for Alsatian food, Alsaco has the best cellar in town. He'll object, But have a FlammKueche as an appetizer with a bottle of trimbach low-end riesling. Then follow with the Baekopfe with, say a 10 year old Clos St. Hune (if there is any left). Absolute heaven. The place is so well-known that service can get slow. Not Southern Italian slow, more like quaaludes and alchohol slow. But still....Wonderful wine, and simple food to accompany it. He'll usually serve even very rare bottles "à la ficelle", that is to say, if you ask, he'll open the bottle and only charge you for the glasses you drink. Very nice incentive to experiment. Try a few of the famous wacky-flavoured eaux-de-vie for a digestif. Garlic? Cinnamon? I think he's even got a rhubarb. You may need 'em after the food. Real stick-to-the-ribs Strassbourgeoise stuff.

La Cloche d'Or

3 r Mansart

Paris 9

01 48 74 48 88

Most people know this place on the once-infamous Triangle d'Or as one of the half-dozen semi-acceptable places to eat French at 2am on weekends. Or dine with an actor after the theatre. The quality has gone up and down. It got so irregular I stopped going for about 2 years. But it started improving again and it really is worthwhile. One of the best carpaccios (de filet de boeuf, bien sur) in town. The terrine maison is first rate. The melted half camembert good-and unusual in Paris--when they don't overbread crumb it. But the real reason to go here is wine. It isn't a fabulous list, but they've got 12-15 very good old bottles at rock-bottom prices for what they are...

Fous d'en face

3 r Bourg Tibourg

Paris 9

01 48 87 03 75

In an area crawling with touristo-phage, brass and cool-grunge renovated, profiteering, restaurants; Fous is still a gem. Very simple, well-prepared food. Sure it looks like somebody's parody of a tiny Paris bistro. But it has always looked that way. Daily specials very seasonal. And they still dare to serve things like good homemade soup à l'ognion without catering exclusively to foreigners. You wouldn't think it on some weekend evenings when one of Jacques Brel's former accordianists comes in to play and everyone joins in song. It can be a bit boring on the palate. But again, the real reason (blah blah blah) to come here is, of course, (I really am obsessed) WINE. The list is pretty good. Nothing fabulous. But he has lots of stuff downstairs not on the list and he'll pull it out with a smile. The owner really cares about wine. Get him talking and he is likely to keep opening bottles till dawn. Actually we HAVE kept opening bottles till quite early. And he practises a very small mark-up. Just make sure he charges you for all the bottles you open. He's been known to forget.

Le Parc aux Cerfs

50 r Vavin

Paris 6

01 43 54 87 83

If you're looking for something a bit elegant, a little inventive, not too stuffy, very good value, you might want to give it a try. I used to eat here many years ago when it had quite a reputation. The rep came and went, I was disappointed too many times. And didn't go for the space of an elephant's memory. Then a little over 2 years ago when a friend (Chris over at Le Timbre) had a new place open we popped down to try it. He couldn't give us a table. If you've been to Le Timbre, you know why. So we decided to give Le Parc aux Cerfs another try. We've been eating there about once a month since. The Salade de Tomme de Brebis Corse cut hyper-thin with figues confites! With a bottle of decent white burgundy, something a little mineral. The Hachis parmentier de canard. The menu changes frequently so I can't promise that the parfait de framboise au poivre de szechwann will be available. But something delightful is sure. The Winelist is much, much better than most places of similar atmosphere and price range. Still not magnificent, but very good. A nice selection of burgundies and Rhones. Just enough serious bordeaux possibilities that don't break the bank. Another nice touch--the restaurant is in a former Montparnasse painter's studio. They put out paper and colored crayons on the tables so you can pleasantly bicker over who gets to use the aquamarine blue between courses. Good fun. If either of the wonderful ladies that run the place are serving you, it'll be great. The rest of the staff can be less than gracious.

Bon'Ap, et honi soit qui boit du vin médiocre!

[Laidback]

Phrederic,

In order to escape the shame of drinking ordinary wine would you please list places along with Charlain that you have been instrumental in composing the wine list?

[Laidback]

Some of the mid-range restaurants I have gotten around to this trip are:

Le Florimond, ave de la Motte-Piquet, 7e, which has never failed me. Emmanuel Rubin declared they have the best chou farci in Paris but I declared it so 1st. Believe either one of us.

P'tit Troquet, rue de l'Exposition,7e. 3 courses for €29.50. Patrick Vessiere makes his own bread, desserts, etc. and his wife Dominique remains as charming as the day they opened. Small wine list with reasonable wines that we have never heard of but M. Vessiere has, such as a "Comte de Negret" Fronton.The great god Joel R. named this as one of his favorite bistros; who am I to question a culinary immortal?

Aux Crus de Bourgogne, rue Bachaumont ,2e. If I squinch my eyes closed and try to conjure what a pre-war Paris bistro should look like, this is it. Absolutely classic with Burgundian favorites on the carte: escargots, coq au Brouilly, and a better wine list than you might expect. We had a marvelously steely Chablis from Fourchaume. A tip of the hat to Phrederic.

L'Entredgeu, rue Laugier, 17e. This was our 4th time here since M. Tredgeu left Chez Casimir and was jam packed from the 1st week on after Pudlo, et. al., blathered on and on about this place. We had our most enjoyable meal of the 4 visits this past Sat., which is another bonus; so many bistros are closed for Sat. lunch, and it was not so crowded, allowing for a more relaxed, friendly service experience. The wine list could benefit from Phearless Phrederic's ministrations, but we had a nice cru Bourgeois St. Estephe, Chateau Picard for €35.

Carte Blanche, rue Lamartine,9e. This place is deserving of all the praise the critics have heaped upon it. Prettier than most, friendly, knowledgeable service and unique food; sort of a poor man's l'Astrance, or maybe some of you remember the great job Delacourcelle did, pre Pré Verre, when he was at Clos de Morillons. For a 3 course €35 menu you can't go wrong. Has anyone else formed the opinion that a place that carries Chateldon water tends to be a cut above? The meal was excellent and the most expensive wine was a very smooth Gevrey Chambertin for €45.

Georgette, rue St. Georges, 9e. The food here was O.K., but it was too elbow to elbow for my enjoyment. Perhaps the killer was that in the crush of serving everyone, we were forgotten between entree and main course; finally our waitress saw us and you could see the guilt flash over her countenance as she dashed back to the kitchen. I am not sure what keeps this little spot humming, certainly not the decor whose highlight is shabby formica, nor the price, as our meal cost about the same as Carte Blanche.

Le Charlain, rue Clauzel, 9e. I have already written about this place after Phrederic's recommendation, but it was so enjoyable that we went back again to check for consistency and it was again one of our favorite finds. The chef has an Alsatian background and his Jurassienne veal was excellent.

You can access my

photos here. The 1st few are repeats of our 1st visit to Le Charlain, but that link seems to have expired anyway.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Laidback (log)

[John Talbott]

Great report Laidback. As for

Has anyone else formed the opinion that a place that carries Chateldon water tends to be a cut above?

in our eating foursome we have one soul who is only happy drinking it but my experience is that it's not so much a marker of "cut above" as a more expensive place.

Then of course we have F. Simon last weekend writing his "what's good and what's not" diatribe about French food/restos using as his examples of outrageous prices being charged 7.60 € for a bottle of Chateldon at a brasserie in Clermont-Ferrand. As the big boys say - Oouf!

[Laidback]

Great report Laidback.  As for

Has anyone else formed the opinion that a place that carries Chateldon water tends to be a cut above?

in our eating foursome we have one soul who is only happy drinking it but my experience is that it's not so much a marker of "cut above" as a more expensive place.

Then of course we have F. Simon last weekend writing his "what's good and what's not" diatribe about French food/restos using as his examples of outrageous prices being charged 7.60 € for a bottle of Chateldon at a brasserie in Clermont-Ferrand. As the big boys say - Oouf!

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A large bottle of Chateldon cost €4.50 today at Carte Blanche.Georgette didn't have it.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Laidback (log)

[fresh_a]

Thanks for the pics, Jim. Couldn't view a few of them, though, for some strange reason.

[Laidback]

Another old favorite we checked in on again this trip is "Restaurant de la Grille" or simply "La Grille"which is at 80 rue de la Faubourg-Poissoniere. You don't come here for the decor, unless you are a fan of old hat collections, bird cages and the like. What you do come here for is the smiling joviality of the red-headed bowling ball, Mme Cullere and the ambrosial Beurre(de Nantais) Blanc Sauce prepared by her husband. This nectar is served with 2 classic items, the picture worthy grilled turbot for 2, or the scallops. There are other things on the menu, but I suggest you stick with these 2, at least for your 1st few visits. During our visit this week we sat next to a table of 3 French businessmen, 1 of whom was initiating his 2 associates. He told me this was at least his 20th visit, and that there is also an excellent tete de veau, but I observed they stuck with the turbot and scallops, which I must add are served with a side dish of a potato,onion, bacon pie that was good enough to stand alone, and large enough that our new friends at the next table helped us finish it. The wine list is rather unremarkable, but there is a good Menetou-Salon to help the Turbot digest properly. Go there before the Culleres retire.