Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create an account.

Sign in to follow this  
doronin

Proving bread - skin problem

Recommended Posts

This is a fully risen loaf on the picture, about 1.25 hours after shaping.

I'm seriously concerned with its skin (or absent of such... notice the holes). The loaf stays pretty low, and doesn't have ovensring (even if I don't wait until it that risen) - in the oven it can be seen that surface "breathes" severily, i.e. gases intensively go out through the holes...

Before it went to the pan it seemed to have nice and smooth surface. What's wrong happened with the loaf? There was no retarding.

57647312-L.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My guess: it rose too much in the pan and had already begun to deflate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from the color of the dough (although I could be deceived because of the photo) it looks like the bread might be whole wheat?! if that is the case, maybe there isn't enough gluten in the dough for it to develop properly during the fermentation/rising process...you might need to work with your formula and include some flour with a higher protein content...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you detail your formula and method a bit more?

Assuming your yeast is OK, looks to me like the loaf is severely overproved. How long was the bulk fermentation? At what temperature?

For wholemeal, with commercial yeast, you only need something like an hour of total fermentation at 30C, from mixer to baking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that your loaves look a bit over proofed. 1 1/4 hours for a commercially yeasted bread seems pretty long. I also agree that it would be easier to help if we had your recipe. As was pointed out, breads with a high % of whole grain flour need a little extra attention.

Kyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys,

Sorry for delay in responding to your posts, I was out for a while...

it rose too much in the pan and had already begun to deflate

One pan of dough consists of 400 g whole wheat (you bet, alanamoana :smile: ) with 80% hydration, which comes to... 320 g of water. I really expect it to fill my regular 5x9 pan pretty much... What can be defined as "too much rise"?

Important: The final skin looks somewhat better if the dough was very wet, I'd think because even at final stage such a dough stays very sticky and as a result more extensible. If I go with 70% hydration or less, the resulting dough doesn't feel sticky, but it's not extensible at all - it tends to tear when stretched regardless of the mixing time. This makes me think that lack of extensibility is the root couse here - skin just doesn't hold when the loaf rises in volume. :wacko:

Can you detail your formula and method a bit more?

Assuming your yeast is OK, looks to me like the loaf is severely overproved. How long was the bulk fermentation? At what temperature?

Well, it is overproved on the picture, but the holes appeared much earlier.

Now, the details:

Basically it's the same formula I used in the recent thread about the yeast behaviour, corrected as Dan advised there.

Starter:

250g coarsely ground organic whole wheat

300g lukewarm water

1/4 tsp instant yeast

stays at room (23 C) temperature for 8 hours, looks full of bubbles by then

The dough:

550g coarsely ground organic whole wheat

340g of room temperature water

*mixed with starter and leaved autolisys for 30 min

2 tsp salt added

Mixed for 5-6 minutes. At 80% hydration dough looks very "all together" and stays on the hook, at higher hydration it rather stays in the bottom of the bowl.

Bulk fermentation takes about 50 min - by then it rises somewhat (far from doubling). All this happens at room temperature, i.e. about 23C and not 30C.

Divide/shape/go to the pans, where it stays for another 50 min - 1.25 h until rised to something resembling the loaf.

Now, when I catch it at about 3/4 height of the pan and bake I do have ovenspring, but when I send the loaves to the oven I can clearly see how the skin breathes, i.e. gases inflate the skin, but almost immediately escape, so the loaf would rise much higher if I could hold them...

For wholemeal, with commercial yeast, you only need something like an hour of total fermentation at 30C, from mixer to baking.

It really depends on amount of the yeast. The Dan's advise not to use yeast straight in the dough - prepare starter with a little yeast, don't add more yeast afterwards made my life much easier, and dough stays alive for far longer then 1 hour. I'm pretty sure that the problem here is not with yeast, but with escaping gases.

breads with a high % of whole grain flour need a little extra attention.

Exactly. This is my passion, to make a good bread without any use of white flour. Isn't it a worthy challenge? :cool:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is still overproved. Most of the rise in in the oven spring, not the fermentation.

I doubt if its just a skin problem - you wouldn't want the skin separating with a big bubble under it. One of the issues with coarsely milled wholewheat is that the bran punctures the gas cells.

I get good results with

a) decrease the water a little to 75% hydration (300g instead of 340g)

b) No need to autolyse. The long preferment period will have more than enough enzyme activity

c) Omit the bulk fermentation step; that is mix the dough and then immediately divide and shape, prove for 1 1/4 hours, slash and bake


Edited by jackal10 (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I doubt if its just a skin problem - you wouldn't want the skin separating with a big bubble under it. One of the issues with coarsely milled wholewheat is that the bran punctures the gas cells.

You're right, although if the dough was more extensible, the gas cell membranes were thinner, cells larger, and there would be no skin issue. You know, it's a strange feeling when you try to stretch a ball of dough, and it tears instead... Doesn't happen to me often, perhaps something wrong with the flour.

Now the question what extencibility depend on.... :wacko:

I get good results with

a) decrease the water a little to 75% hydration (300g instead of 340g)

b) No need to autolyse. The long preferment period will have more than enough enzyme activity

c) Omit the bulk fermentation step; that is mix the dough and then immediately divide and shape, prove for 1 1/4 hours, slash and bake

That sounds very convenient, time wise. Gonna try it, though it's kinda difficult to me to adopt this idea since all the books I read call to prolong, and prolong, and prolong... the fermentation time.

As for autolyse - I used to consider it as a good aid for gluten development, given whole grain is limited in it... Do you suggest to drop it just as unnecessry stage, or 'cause it harms the process?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't want to believe everything you read in books, or here for that matter.

It also a question of style. In the old days, a fine even crumb structure, a little like Pullman bread was considered desirable, so the dough was punched down to redistribute the gas cells. Now we prefer an uneven crumb structure, so a single rise works better. There is also a long tradition of a having only a single rise for wholemeal breads.

Its fine to prolong if you are using sourdough, However commercial yeast is designed for a fast fermentation. Because of the sponge step you are adding lots of active hungry yeast. If you want to prolong (although I can't think why, except for oven scheduling) keep it cool - like 4C/10F to inhibit the yeast activity. Another technique is to mix the flour and the water components of the dough (but not the yeast or pre-ferment and leave for some hours. Some claim this gives more grain flavour, but I can't tell the difference.

Autolyse was to allow time for the enzymes in the yeast and the acid the sourdough starter (some say the flour but that cannot be) to degrade the starch into simple sugars for the yeast to feed on. That process is somewhat inhibited by salt. However you add a lot of saltless well developed dough as a starter, so there is no point in having a autolyse step.

Ultimately try it and see. Its what works for you wih your flour, yeast, water and oven, and experimentation with a small batch is fun and not expensive.


Edited by jackal10 (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jackal10's right, in the olden days competition loaves were routinely put through a mangle as often as twenty times to completly break down air pockets before the final prove giving as even a crumb structure as possible.

From my own experience relatively high-hydration wholewheat doughs are very prone to overmixing, as well as overproving. In overmixed batter goods you often see a 'tunneling' effect similar to what you describe.

Have another go and let us know what happens.

I'm making guinness and onion bread today in the worst oven in the world. Wish me luck...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You know, it's a strange feeling when you try to stretch a ball of dough, and it tears instead... Doesn't happen to me often, perhaps something wrong with the flour.

Now the question what extencibility depend on....  :wacko:

This is AKA the Window pane test and is an indication of gluten development. If it tears, the gluten is said not to be developed properly. using 100% whole wheat tends to make this a marginal test. As Jackal pointed out, the bran in whole wheat tends to cut the gluten strands. This will give you a false result. In my head, extensibility depends on, among other things, hydration and gluten development. The trick is to moderate the cutting effects of the bran. Trial and error :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...

I'm making guinness and onion bread today in the worst oven in the world.  Wish me luck...

I do wish you luck and am sure you will have it! Bread baking is perhaps my favourite cooking activity and even when the results are less than fantastic, I get a high just from trying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had good results uning intesive mixing for wholewheat and spelt breads, to give a very extensible dough.

Its a variation on intensively mixed "no time" doughs

Spin the dough in a food processor or mixer on high until it picks up and then releases, and starts sticking. For me its about 2 minutes in a robo with the steel blade. Watch the temperature, and you may want to use ice water in the mix.

You get a very sticky extensible dough, almost like cream or warm toffee. A turn with some flour or oil makes it behave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One commis at work tried that with very hard white flour, and I swear you could have used the resulting bread as artillery shells. I've seen it used for wholemeal with decent results.

The Guinness loaf turned out decently, considering the oven :

gallery_17466_458_75593.jpg

BFT 55 minutes, final prove 25 mins, oven 210C for 45 minutes with steam for first five.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...

The Guinness loaf turned out decently, considering the oven :

...

Looks good! How does it taste?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good... malty, with a slight Guinness bitterness to it.

Thanks. Sounds intriguing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From my own experience relatively high-hydration wholewheat doughs are very prone to overmixing, as well as overproving.  In overmixed batter goods you often see a 'tunneling' effect similar to what you describe.

Have another go and let us know what happens.

Time to report the results... :wink:

This entire story doesn't stop to amaze me... When quite a while ago I started with all that whole meal goodness, I was busy trying to apply complicate classic recipes to whole wheat… well, mainly due to lack of books dedicated to whole grain specifics. I was spending pretty much whole day trying to imitate those lo-ong proof times of French bread, the results, of course, were pretty much miserable. The progress now brought me to a point where it takes just about 2 hours from initial mix to finished bread (starter is extra), and it tastes much better then the attempts from the past…

Now, back to business.

So I dropped the bulk fermentation – mixed, shaped right away, proved, and baked. I have to admit the rise was much livelier, I had better ovenspring, crust was good, and I generally liked the crumb, although there is much yet to work on. My conclusion – this is the way to go. Thank you guys!

However, the story with the skin didn't change much, there were lots of little "breaks" and holes in what was supposed to be the skin, and it caused me to still believe some of potential volume was lost due to some escaped gases. I examined the surface thoroughly; it indeed looked as the skin was torn due to inability to stretch itself enough to match the "new" volume of rising loaf. Gotta try another, more "glutenious" brand of flour I guess…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we have some pictures?

I doubt if changing the flour will have much effect.

Are you slashing the loaf?

Another point is that I note you are covering loaves with clingfilm. This will inhibit the slight drying and skining needed to form a good crust. Try covering with a cloth, such as an oven cloth, and then putting the whole thing in a large loose plastic bag like a bin liner to prove.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can we have some pictures?

I doubt if changing the flour will have much effect.

Are you slashing the loaf?

Another point is that I note you are covering loaves with clingfilm. This will inhibit the slight drying and skining needed to form a good crust. Try covering with a cloth, such as an oven cloth, and then putting the whole thing in a large loose plastic bag like a bin liner to prove.

This time I've got only pictures of already baked bread, I hope to upload them tonight.

Clingfilm is another thing that confuses me from my early days :)

From one perspective if I let skin dry somewhat, it'll be tough and may inhibit ovenspring. This is actually why we steam the oven.

From another standpoint, if it's sweats for too long under the clingfilm, excessive humidity may weaken the skin. Where's the truth lays?

I do not slash as at the point of would-be slashing the skin already resembles a sieve.

Why I think about flour change? The one I use has just 12.5% protein, and this is a whole wheat - pretty low IMHO. Also, it's very coarsely ground, not as granular as semolina, but the particles are large enough to be felt on touch. Initially I didn't believe it's possible to do any bread from it, so I consider what I've done as a "success" :). My understanding is that dough extensibility must also depend on it, as large porticles can penetrate gluten as good as bran...


Edited by doronin (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slashing allows you to control where the loaf shreds. Slash at a 45 degree angle just before baking.

You need the dough to skin slightly to support the weaker foam inside, like a balloon. It won't inhibit the rise.

I think your flour is already strong enough. I use a Doves Farm, sairly coarse wholemeal, 12.0% protein, or a Spelt 11.5% protein.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here, the promised pictures. Comments are appreciated.

58690402-M.jpg

58692277-M.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks to me like a wet dough that has been under developed but overproved.

The flat top and rather coarse crumb with thick webs between the cells are characteristic. Did you cut the water to 75% hydration? (300g instead of 340g?).

How are you mixing? Mix on high speed until the dough "picks up" and the continue mixing until it releases again. Some Vitaman C (ascorbic acid) - about 0.5% will help as well.

Then cut the prove time. You'll need to experiment a bit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looks to me like a wet dough that has been under developed but overproved.

The flat top and rather coarse crumb with thick webs between the cells are characteristic. Did you cut the water to 75% hydration? (300g instead of 340g?).

How are you mixing? Mix on high speed until the dough "picks up" and the continue mixing until it releases again. Some Vitaman C (ascorbic acid) - about 0.5% will help as well.

Then cut the prove time. You'll need to experiment a bit

Hmm... "under developed but overproved" - how can it be so it we just dropped the bulk fermentation, leaving only proof? :wacko: Actually, when I did the bulk fermentation stage, which was supposed to help the dough to become developed, the webs were just as thick, but holes were smaller. Any idea?

The hydration, I couldn't drop it this time - the flour I bought last time was extremely thirsty for water: strangely, at 75% it was very very dry. So I started to add water while mixing, until I saw that little dough stays on the bottom of the mixer bowl (i.e. not all stays on the hook). I'll try to cut water next time.

Mixing - KitchenAid standing mixer, second speed, 5-6 minutes. It will break if I go higher.

"Mix on high speed until the dough "picks up" and the continue mixing until it releases again" - you mean food processor mixing, not mixer, right? Otherwise, when it releases, won't the dough be overkneaded by then?

Ascorbic acid - it's not that simple here in Israel. It's considered to be a chemical stuff, so pharmacies don't generally carry it in pure form. And the price is unbelievable.


Edited by doronin (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh, you are in Isreal..

Don't health food stores sell Vitamin C powder or tablets? You only need a pinch, but its OK to omit.

You are trying to over knead in conventional terms, so long as the dough doesn't get too hot. It will get wetter as it proves. Mine comes off the mixer almost as a cream, and then magically transforms as you shape it.

I'll try and do some pix later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Similar Content

    • By Chris Hennes
      On Nov. 7, 2017, Modernist Bread will finally arrive on my doorstep. Having preordered it literally the first day it was available, to say I'm excited about this book is a bit of an understatement. The team at The Cooking Lab have been gracious enough to give @Dave the Cook and me early electronic access to the book and so I've spent the last week pouring over it. I'm just going to start with a few initial comments here (it's 2600 pages long, so a full review is going to take some time, and require a bunch of baking!). Dave and I would also be happy to answer any questions you've got.
       
      One of the main things I've noticed about this book is a change in tone from the original Modernist Cuisine. It comes across as less "everything you know is wrong" and more "eighty bazillion other bakers have contributed to this knowledge and here's our synthesis of it." I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that Myhrvold and company are now the most experienced bread-bakers in the world. Not necessarily in terms of the number of identical loaves they've produced, but in the shear number of different recipes and techniques they've tried and the care with which they've analyzed the results. These volumes are a distillation of 100,000 years of human breadmaking experience, topped off with a dose of the Modernist ethos of taking what we know to the next level.
       
      The recipes include weight, volume, and baker's percentages, and almost all of them can be made by both a home baker and someone baking in a commercial facility. The home baker might need to compromise on shape (e.g. you can't fit a full-length baguette in most home ovens) but the book provides clear instructions for both the amateur and professional. The recipes are almost entirely concentrated in volumes 4 and 5, with very few in the other volumes (in contrast to Modernist Cuisine, where there were many recipes scattered throughout). I can't wait for the physical volumes to arrive so that I can have multiple volumes open at once, the recipes cross-reference techniques taught earlier quite frequently.
    • By pastrygirl
      I was cooking for a party last night at which a gluten free cake was served for dessert.  I had a few bites and aside from the cake being dry and the frosting very sweet, there was that tell-tale grittiness that GF baked goods seem to have. This particular bakery uses a blend of millet, sorghum, tapioca and potato flours.  I used some Bob's Red Mill GF flour to satisfy a customer request for GF shortbread and found the same grittiness - they use garbanzo bean flour, potato starch, whole grain white sorghum flour, tapioca flour and fava bean flour. 
       
      Obviously some sacrifices of flavor and texture are made when trying to replicate the magic of gluten, but why can't these flour blends be softer?  Can't they be milled more finely?  Or is it just the way the particular starches or proteins in those other flours are felt on the tongue? 
       
      It's like that chalky cold cooked rice texture, do you know what I mean?  Why can't it be better?  Almost every time I eat something made with substitute flours, it makes me sad and want to fix it.
    • By Kasia
      Today I would like to share with you a recipe for a slightly different sandwich. Instead of traditional vegetables, I recommend strawberry salsa, and rather than a slice of ham – a golden grilled slice of Halloumi cheese. Only one thing is missing – a fresh and fragrant bread roll.

      Halloumi is a Cypriot cheese made with sheep's milk or a mixture of sheep's, goat's and cow's milk. It is semihard and so flexible that it is excellent for frying and barbecuing, and it is great fresh too.

      Ingredients (for two people)
      2 fresh rolls of your choice
      2 big lettuce leaves
      4 slices of Halloumi cheese
      2 teaspoons of butter
      salsa:
      8 strawberries
      half a chili pepper
      2 tablespoons of minced peppermint leaves
      ¼ a red onion
      2 tablespoons of chopped almond without the skin
      1 teaspoon of honey
      2 tablespoons of lemon juice
      2 tablespoons of balsamic sauce

      Start by preparing the salsa. Wash the strawberries, remove the shanks and cube them. Dice the onion and chili pepper. Mix the strawberries with the onion, chili pepper, peppermint and almonds. Spice it up with honey and lemon juice. Leave in the fridge for half an hour. Grill the slices of Halloumi cheese until they are golden. Cut the fresh rolls in half and spread them with butter. Put a lettuce leaf on each half of roll, then a slice of the Halloumi cheese, one tablespoon of salsa, another slice of cheese and two tablespoons of salsa. Spice it up with balsamic sauce. Cover with the other half of the roll. Prepare the second sandwich in the same way. Serve at once while the cheese is still hot.

      Enjoy your meal!
       
       
       


    • By Shel_B
      Not sure if the subject line really reflects the situation and my question.
       
      Sweetie made a couple of loaves of soda bread the other day, and cut the top of the loaf in order to make a pattern something like THIS.  However, the pattern or cut mark didn't show on the finished loaf.  I don't know much more other than she said she made the cut "pretty deep."
       
      What might be the cause of the cut mark not showing on the finished loaf?  Thanks!
    • By nonkeyman
       How to Make Rye Sourdough Bread
      I don't know what it is about bread, but it is my favorite thing to make and eat. A freshly baked loaf of bread solves a world of problems. I was lucky enough to get to be one of the main bakers when I worked at the Herbfarm. We baked Epi, Baguettes, Rolls, Pretzels and so much more.
       

      Rye Sourdough Wood Oven Baked Bread
       
      My fondest memory when I worked there was our field trip to the Bread Lab(wait something this cool came out of WSU, of course!) here in Washington. They grow thousands of varieties of wheat and have some pretty cool equipment to test gluten levels, protein, genetics and so on. I nerded out so hard.
       
      What came out of that trip was this bread. Now I can't recall the exact flour we got from them, but using a basic bread and rye will do the trick. We used to get a special flour for our 100 mile menu. This was where we were limited to only serving food from 100 miles away. So finding a wheat farm that made actual hulled wheat in 100 miles was a miracle. The year before...the thing we made, was closer to hard tack.
       
      Now if you don't have a starter, I recommend starting one! It is a great investment!
       
      Rye Sourdough
      1000 g flour (60% Bread Flour, 40% Rye)
      25 g salt
       
      75 g of honey/molasses
      200 g of Rye starter 
      650 g of water, cold
      Equipment
      Baker Scale (or other gram scale)
      Bench Cutter
      Bread Razor (you could also use one of those straight razors)
       
      Start by taking the cold water, yeast and Honey and mix together and let sit for 10-15 minutes
       
      I know, some of you just freaked out, cold water? Won't that kill the yeast.
       
      Nope, the yeast just needs to re hydrate. I prefer using cold water to slow the yeast down. That way the lactobacillus in the starter has  a good amount of time to start making lactic acid, and really get to flavor town!
       
      While that is sitting, I mix the flour and the salt together(How many times I have forgotten to salt the bread).
       
      Now mix the two products with a kneading hook for 3-5 minutes, only until thoroughly mixed but not yet at the window pane stage of kneading.
       
       
      Instead, place into a bowl and set a timer for one hour. Then when that hour is up, push the dough down and fold all the corners in
       
      Repeat this step 2-3 more times, pending on the outside temperature.
       
      If you happen to have those cool bowls to shape round loafs! Awesome, use them. I would break the boules into 3 balls of about 333 grams
       
      If not then just put the dough in the fridge and do the steps below the next day.
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Once you have bouled the bread, can put it into the fridge and let it sit over night
       
      Again, this lets the bacteria, really get to work(misconception is the yeast adds the sour flavor, nope, think yogurt!)
       
      Now on the next day, heat up whatever form of oven you plan to use. We used a brick oven but if you just have a normal oven, that is fine. Crank it to 450 degrees Fahrenheit.
       
      If you have not bouled your bread yet, go back and watch the video and break the dough down into three balls of abut 333 grams. Then place the balls on a lightly greased sheet pan. Let sit for about 45 minutes to 1 hour.

      If you have used the fancy bowls then turn the the bread out on a lightly greased sheet pan, without the bowl and let temper for 15-30 minutes.
       
       
      If your oven is steam injected, build up a good blast of steam.
       
      If not, throw in a few ice cubes and close the door or put a bath of hot water inside.
       
      The steam is what creates the sexy crust!
       
      Let it build up for a few minutes!
       
      Right before you put the bread into the oven use a bread razor to slice the top of the bread.
       
      Place the dough balls into the oven and douse with another blast of steam or ice and close the oven.
       
      Let them bake for 13 minutes at 450 degrees. Then turn the loaves and bake for another 10 minutes.
       
      Remove when the crust is as dark as you want and the internal temperature exceeds 190 degrees Fahrenheit.
       
      Now pull out and make sure to let cool off of the sheet pan with room to breath underneath. You don't want your crust steaming!
       
      Now here is the hardest part, wait at least 20 minutes before getting into the bread. Also, cutting into bread to early really seems to come out poorly. I would rip the bread until 1-2 hours has passed.
       
      Now serve it with your favorite butter, goat butter or whipped duck fat!
       
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×