Expensive food for rich people

[Pan]

Mayhaw: I never suggested making "high end dining available to the masses", but I would like to see good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford.  Although I'm far away, I get the impression that this is not the case in America.[...]

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Austin, I think you need to spend more time in California. Go to a place like Chow in San Francisco. Good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford? Yep, I think they've got that covered. High end and ritsy, it ain't. Good and a bargain, it sure is.

[miladyinsanity]

Chinese culture is very much about food as well. We are taught to ask our elders whether they've eaten, kinda like asking 'How are you?' When my family travels back home to Malaysia, for example, the first thing we do is discuss where we're going to have the next meal. *snicker* Usually my relatives will bring food to whichever aunt/uncle's place we're staying at to start things off.

I come from a pretty well-off family, and we typically eat out on weekends--partly because my mom's a housewife and she cooks on weekdays.

Good food doesn't necessarily mean a ritzy place. It can mean a coffee shop or a hawker center.

I've never been to the States, but I get this feeling that you are generalizing a bit too much, Austin.

[annecros]

Wow! This is a very interesting thread.

Objectively, I would have to disagree that good food at a reasonable price is not available to the masses in the United States. Less than a mile from my home, there is a shopping center called Pinewood Square, I think. Located at this shopping center, you will find an Outback, a McDonalds, an Italian place called "Paisano's" that is family run and serves good pasta, pizza, and great hoagies, a Greek place that is also family operated that serves the gamut of Greek home cooking in a diner type atmosphere, a Quizno's, a Coldstone Creamery, a locally owned sports bar that serves up greasy fried food at all hours, and a new Mexican place that is owned and operated by a chef formerly employed by the Four Seasons that is my current place to pick up tacos when I have a taste for them and don't feel like cooking them myself. Anchoring the shopping plaza is a Publix, that accepts food stamps of course, and is very well stocked with nearly all of the provisions needed to make nearly any of the dishes prepared in the rest of the shopping plaza. Even in the 7-11's in the area, you can not only by the roller grilled hotdog, but you can pick up tuna salad on a pita, a cobb salad, a chef salad, a fruit salad, a cuban sandwich, etc. It is amazing the number of hardworking people who eat out of a 7-11. About a mile and a half from here, there is another strip mall with chinese, a sushi/hibachi place, another Italian place, a pretty decent Thai place and a Baskin Robbins.

This is pretty typical of my experience in the area in which I live, and where else but America?

And, considering the economy in the United States, these places wouldn't make it, much less get the financing to get off the ground, if they weren't serving good food at a reasonable price that people can afford to purchase living in the economy.

Now, I can also drive fifteen or twenty minutes and go to the Breakers, the Governor's Club, the Four Season's, or hit some of those trendy places on Worth Avenue in West Palm Beach - I could do it on a regular basis if I wished to mortgage my first born!

I think that perhaps the perception that American's don't eat well is a matter of some choices made by individuals. No, you don't see food carts on every corner, except in population areas that are dense enough to support this sort of industry. New York has been brought up as an example, and it is a very good one.

I think climate and culture can have an affect here as well. Comparing Thailand to the entire United States really is comparing apples to pineapples. There are so many subclimates in the US, cultural influences from all over the world, availability of raw materials is so varied, you can and will have a very different eating experience anywhere you hang your hat. I have been told by a family running a bakery here in Florida, who are from New York, that the difference in water hardness has to be compensated for in their baking in order to serve "New York Style" breads and pastry's.

I guess if I had a better idea of what your definition of good food is, then perhaps I would find more common ground with your theory. For me, good food is nutritious and tastes good. Now, my idea of tastes good may not be another's.

I'll be warming up a pot of turnips and mustard, and baking cheddar/garlic biscuits served with country ham slices for lunch today. MMMMM - good stuff. A lot of nutrition and calories there as well, but another person may not be able to tolerate the salt and fat. Oh well.

[Carrot Top]

There are two things that stand out in the difference between food in Thailand and food in the US (to me).

The first is taste. It is likely that most Thai food is served close to the source. Both in the way of farm to mouth and in the way of ingredient to recipe. There is a visceral reality to the food in general that is not found in the food in general in the US.

You will not find a general trend towards foods taken and transformed into Twinkies - or frozen concoctions that are then reheated for people to eat (even by mid-range restaurants), as exists here in the US.

We have a high degree of falsity of taste (or lack of flavor) in what is generally available to us here, often.

I figure that is only out of the goodness of our national heart, dontcha think? Gotta keep the bio-techs and the food chemists employed somehow in this great country of ours.

The second is the thread of something (forgive me, those of you who grimace at this word) spiritual that runs through the food that runs through life in Thailand, something that does not run through our food here.

Here, food is considered essential not only in that it provides calories and nutrition (or alternately at the other end of the scale a great experience or a great story to tell about the fantastic theatre that a high-end restaurant can be). In Thailand it seems it is also, as a part of daily life in general, a carrier of good wishes - of care to others - of a shared history that resides not only in the soil but also within the heart.

Does this have something to do with what our characters and strivings are (or have been) in general as nations?

Who we are, as nations, philosophically - "what we stand for" - might have a great deal to do with what our food is like.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[Busboy]

Reading Gourmet to get an idea of how Americans eat is like reading Vogue to learn how we dress dress. In both cases, the magazines are “about” a lifestyle that is essentially impossible for most Americans ($1000 dinners, $2000 dresses) and aimed at the truly wealthy – with a closet-full of Armani and a basement full of Petrus – and the aspirational class just below, those of us who can afford the occasional splurge. (For a better idea of what most people are eating, look through the food section of the local paper, and check out the recipes that home cooks in Des Moines, Hartford and Birmingham are clipping and cooking from).

Eventually, in either case, the fashions that first appear in the elite publications make their way into the reality in which most Americans live, altered and diluted in ways that allow the uncharitable among us to snicker at people who think Olive Garden serves Italian food or that grocery store Brie has the vaguest resemblance to a proper French cheese. By the time food fashion trickles down, market forces and human beings’ infinite capacity to avoid challenging themselves have transformed the exotic and brilliant into the artificial and mundane. The dominant food culture has taken over.

Sadly, American food culture is something of an oxymoron. Aside from some thriving regional and ethnic cuisines, we don’t have much in the way of food culture. I blame our ethnic forebears – to many folks from bad food countries like Germany, the British Isles and Scandinavia, not enough French or Arabs. In many quarters, fancy food is considered a bit frivolous – foreign and suspect. And the American insistence on practicality and efficiency that is so helpful in driving our economy hurts us in the kitchen.

As many have pointed out, there are innumerable inexpensive “ethnic” eateries scattered across the landscape. On the other hand, picking up the check at a decent restaurant in most cities is not for the faint of heart or the median of income ($65K for a household of four, if you were wondering). Down the street from my office in DC, there’s a well-regarded osteria that’s considered something of a mid-price place. That means a decent meal for two will only set you back about $100. Take the whole family to a (NYT/Washington Post) 3-star, and you’re looking at $2-300 – a significant hit for a significant part of the population. So the mid-scale chains, with their table tents and neutered menus spring up to offer “fine dining” at a price more people can afford.

All is not lost, however. Aside from the aforementioned ethnic and regional foods – soul/southern, Italian, Tex-Mex, etc. – Americans often hold onto the spirit that transform meals into something important. We join hands around the table and give thanks on holidays, we raise our glasses at weddings and bring covered dishes to funerals. We feast at anniversaries and proms. We meet our neighbors over the grill. And, in many communities, Sunday dinner is the time for extended families to come together and catch up with one another (and, for many years, my family’s only night for a good steak).

It’s common and easy to look at American dining as a binary culture, split between a small number of culinary elites with the disposable income and the curiosity (or status-drive) to support a few glossy magazines and a few snooty restaurants; and the great unwashed who are busy microwaving pizza and queuing for a table at Outback Steak House. And both stereotypes have more than a grain of truth to them. But the reality -- as always -- is more complex and can’t be learned at newsstands or from strip mall drive-throughs. There are plenty of reasons to be depressed about dining in America – and plenty of reasons to think things are getting better, as well.

[Chris Amirault]

As someone who's been snooping through my Lutece Cookbook today for holiday meal ideas, I am particularly aware that several of the patron saints around here -- Bourdain, Fergus Henderson, Wolfert, etc. -- are very big fans of very cheap cuts of meat and of offal.

[Busboy]

My unscientific survey of the first two pages of eGullet cat 11:15 EST showed that 31% of the displayed topics could be classified as "Expensive Food for Rich People"(most telling line: "chef's tasting menu named "the voyage" which is a 10 course meal at a very affordable $85 without wine") if one were of a mind to do do; 52% were on prole food, 9% went both ways and the rest were administrative, technical or philosophical (ie, this thread).

[Busboy]

As someone who's been snooping through my Lutece Cookbook today for holiday meal ideas, I am particularly aware that several of the patron saints around here -- Bourdain, Fergus Henderson, Wolfert, etc. -- are very big fans of very cheap cuts of meat and of offal.

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Though neither Les Halles nor St. John's are particularly cheap places to eat. Their cookbooks are more egalitarian than their dining rooms.

[Mayhaw Man]

Though neither Les Halles nor St. John's are particularly cheap places to eat. Their cookbooks are more egalitarian than their dining rooms. 

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Yes, that's very true, but you can make many of the things that these guys make at home, if that's what you choose to do. Preparing a grilled pork belly over sliced cucumbers and grape tomatoes (acid to cut the fat-you should do this-it's an awsome dish) is really a cheap thing to do and will serve lots of people for not much. The problem with this type of food is that usually it is very, very rich and just not the sort of thing that most people (I am NOT one of them-I do this stuff regularly) will prepare at home for themselves and for their families. These kinds of cookbooks, and those types places, pretty much exist for people to have a food adventure-to try something that they would not normally eat or even know where to source the raw materials for preparing them. Hence, the premium charges are for the inventiveness that goes into using these simple and inexpensive materials in interesting ways-though many of the things in the Henderson book (in particular) are things that can be done by any experienced home cook with a decent kitchen.

[JohnL]

German and Scandanavian and British cuisines are "bad"?

French and "Arab" cuisines good? (by the way--which "Arab" food are you talking about?--Moroccan, Algerian? what the Sheiks in Saudi Arabia are eating?)

Really--Is this thread loaded with generalization and stereotyping or what?!

First-I agree that the whole premise of this thread is faulty--Gourmet Magazine and the notion that a few "elites" are determining the parameters and direction of cuisine in this country etc.

also--the whole notion of what "average" folks eat in this country and the idea that one can make a comparison between Thailand and America in this regard is impossible.

not only are our respective histories unique and different but the sheer size--geographically etc. belies comparisons.

even more alarming is an attempt by some posters to make "spiritual" comparisons--I won't even go there.

Also the idea that the cuisine of Thailand being "set in stone" or not evolving is unbelieveable. I am no expert in Thai cuisine but the influences and roots in Indian and Chinese cuisines is well documented.

America is a very large country geographically with a hugely diverse population from native Americans to recent arrivals from all sorts of countries. I would find it hard to define just what American cuisine is. --value judgements aside--is cajun or creole cooking in our delta any more "American" than the cooking of Vietnamese Americans in Minneapolis or the cooking one finds in New England or what native Americans cook and eat? (and remember "Native American" is a generalization too--what tribe would we be talking about? ).

How about the Italian American food one finds in the Bronx? Or the many permutations of cuisines one finds all over the country like skyline chillie (or is it spaghetti?) in Ohio? --scrapple and soft pretzels in

Pennsylvania-- sirloin tips in Santa Barbara? barbeque (and just what type of barbeque would we be talkin?--from Argentinian to Memphis to Texas). Low country cuisine of South Carolina? Brunswick Stew? French? Midwestern cooking (whatever that is--we have everyone from greek Americans to Arab Americans in large numbers there Greeks too and....). Is it what Alice Waters has been cooking? Bobby Flay and Mark Miller? Is it Southwest cuisine? Is it Jewish deli or cous cous or Hungarian?

Oh yes--Thai food--I am ordering some delivered tonite!

I would say that as opposed to some small group of elites at Gourmet (or here at eGullet) the biggest influence on where American cuisine has been and is going are the waves of people who come here (and will be coming here)--its in our history!

As for what rich and poor eat--I would argue it is just as difficult generalizing here as it is determining what American food is?

And as wrongheaded to assume that in Thailand there are no wealthy and poor (and in betweens).

In fact--history indicates there have been "cuisines" for the rich and privileged and poor peoples from the beginning of time.--Haute Cuisine to Moghul cuisine to Mandarin etc etc etc. Why even in former socialist and communist countries the politburo and the party regulars arguably ate a lot differently than the general populace! (so did the czars and Kings they replaced).

Anyway--there is a potentially fascinating discussion here somewhere if we could dispense with the stereotyping and generalization and political agenda.

[H. du Bois]

Mayhaw: I never suggested making "high end dining available to the masses", but I would like to see good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford.  Although I'm far away, I get the impression that this is not the case in America.[...]

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Austin, I think you need to spend more time in California. Go to a place like Chow in San Francisco. Good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford? Yep, I think they've got that covered. High end and ritsy, it ain't. Good and a bargain, it sure is.

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Pan, with all due respect (truly!!!), I believe what Austin is talking about is eating outside of the urban centers. I've eaten like a queen in New York and San Francisco, at ethnic restaurants that cost very little as well as at the high end of the spectrum. Where I'm currently staying, I have to drive 40-50 miles to either of two cities if I want to eat at a place that isn't a chain or a greasy spoon - with the exception of the local prime rib house. One has to be truly motivated and flush with gasoline money to do that kind of thing on a regular basis, and forget about having wine with the meal if you have to drive that distance home. I can leave my apartment in New York and be within a 5 minute walk of any regional cuisine at a decent price and quality. The same cannot be said for the rest of the country, alas.

Ellen (who is jonesing for sushi like a depraved junkie)

[JohnL]

Mayhaw: I never suggested making "high end dining available to the masses", but I would like to see good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford.  Although I'm far away, I get the impression that this is not the case in America.[...]

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Austin, I think you need to spend more time in California. Go to a place like Chow in San Francisco. Good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford? Yep, I think they've got that covered. High end and ritsy, it ain't. Good and a bargain, it sure is.

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Pan, with all due respect (truly!!!), I believe what Austin is talking about is eating outside of the urban centers. I've eaten like a queen in New York and San Francisco, at ethnic restaurants that cost very little as well as at the high end of the spectrum. Where I'm currently staying, I have to drive 40-50 miles to either of two cities if I want to eat at a place that isn't a chain or a greasy spoon - with the exception of the local prime rib house. One has to be truly motivated and flush with gasoline money to do that kind of thing on a regular basis, and forget about having wine with the meal if you have to drive that distance home. I can leave my apartment in New York and be within a 5 minute walk of any regional cuisine at a decent price and quality. The same cannot be said for the rest of the country, alas.

Ellen (who is jonesing for sushi like a depraved junkie)

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I am curious--where are you "staying?"

You may not be able to get sushi (good or bad).

There are rural areas and some small towns in the US do not have a wide selection of good restaurants but often this is a result of the fact that people do not dine out a lot.

Hard to believe there are many places that have no or little good healthy food available in markets etc. People may not be dining out a lot where you are but that does not mean they are not eating well at home.

By the way--some of the "chain" restaurants are not quite as bad as we make em out to be.

Edited December 21, 2005 by JohnL (log)

[Busboy]

German and Scandanavian and British cuisines are "bad"?

French and "Arab" cuisines good? (by the way--which "Arab" food are you talking about?--Moroccan, Algerian? what the Sheiks in Saudi Arabia are eating?)

Really--Is this thread loaded with generalization and stereotyping or what?!

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Being a bit tongue in cheek, I was.

[Mayhaw Man]

Being a bit tongue in cheek, I was.

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Is "Tongue in cheek" in Henderson's cookbook? I bet it would be good.

[annecros]

Mayhaw: I never suggested making "high end dining available to the masses", but I would like to see good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford.  Although I'm far away, I get the impression that this is not the case in America.[...]

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Austin, I think you need to spend more time in California. Go to a place like Chow in San Francisco. Good, healthy, creative food available at a price that normal people can afford? Yep, I think they've got that covered. High end and ritsy, it ain't. Good and a bargain, it sure is.

←

Pan, with all due respect (truly!!!), I believe what Austin is talking about is eating outside of the urban centers. I've eaten like a queen in New York and San Francisco, at ethnic restaurants that cost very little as well as at the high end of the spectrum. Where I'm currently staying, I have to drive 40-50 miles to either of two cities if I want to eat at a place that isn't a chain or a greasy spoon - with the exception of the local prime rib house. One has to be truly motivated and flush with gasoline money to do that kind of thing on a regular basis, and forget about having wine with the meal if you have to drive that distance home. I can leave my apartment in New York and be within a 5 minute walk of any regional cuisine at a decent price and quality. The same cannot be said for the rest of the country, alas.

Ellen (who is jonesing for sushi like a depraved junkie)

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I am curious--where are you "staying?"

You may not be able to get sushi (good or bad).

There are rural areas and some small towns in the US do not have a wide selection of good restaurants but often this is a result of the fact that people do not dine out a lot.

Hard to believe there are many places that have no or little good healthy food available in markets etc. People may not be dining out a lot where you are but that does not mean they are not eating well at home.

By the way--some of the "chain" restaurants are not quite as bad as we make em out to be.

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I'm wondering too. Maybe, there is some interesting local cuisine in those "greasy spoons" that get bypassed on the way to the 40 mile away place?

I don't know, I'm just saying that I have had some incredibly good food in some very unprententious, and yes, even unpromising locations. Talking to the locals about where to eat, and keeping an open mind, can generally net you some great experiences.

Of course, coming out of New York, where there is good food at every other door, I could see where one would get spoiled. Just spending a long weekend there spoils me. Just the nature of the beast.

[JohnL]

German and Scandanavian and British cuisines are "bad"?

French and "Arab" cuisines good? (by the way--which "Arab" food are you talking about?--Moroccan, Algerian? what the Sheiks in Saudi Arabia are eating?)

Really--Is this thread loaded with generalization and stereotyping or what?!

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Being a bit tongue in cheek, I was.

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I thought so!

(Andy Lynes would be apoplectic over your comment re: British food).

It is just that to me this is really quite silly.

(yes the Swedes have pushed the concept of Herring beyond its rational limits!).

but

few, if any, cuisines are totally homogenous.

by the way--if one is looking for what influences the 'average" American--one would look away from Gourmet magazine and in the direction of the Food Network and Martha Stewart!

and that is a good thing and a bad thing!

[annecros]

Being a bit tongue in cheek, I was.

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Is "Tongue in cheek" in Henderson's cookbook? I bet it would be good.

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"Tongue 'n' Cheek"

YUM - Sounds like a sausage to me, or perhaps a cold cut. I'd take one home.

My son would be particularly interested in trying this one...

[JohnL]

Being a bit tongue in cheek, I was.

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Is "Tongue in cheek" in Henderson's cookbook? I bet it would be good.

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That is an "offal" joke!!!

[CharityCase]

If I'd grown up in Thailand I don't think I could shed the bias of such a difference in cost of living. that said even when you balance those differences I'd think food(as a % of disposable income) is higher in North america than elsewhere...except for Europe and extremely remote areas where you're basically eating transportation costs in your florida orange.

[Carrot Top]

even more alarming is an attempt by some posters to make "spiritual" comparisons--I won't even go there.

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It really shouldn't "alarm" you if there is nothing to it, or if you think the comment foolish.

No need for you to "go there". Some people might want to, though. You do want to be inclusive, I am sure.

[annecros]

even more alarming is an attempt by some posters to make "spiritual" comparisons--I won't even go there.

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It really shouldn't "alarm" you if there is nothing to it, or if you think the comment foolish.

No need for you to "go there". Some people might want to, though. You do want to be inclusive, I am sure.

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Well, if someone wants to go there, I have heard my share of "Thank you, Jesus" - "Hellelujah" - and "God, this is good" around the dinner tables I ate at as a child, and those my children ate at as children, and even today.

As far as food generosity is concerned, I have a bagful of cookies from neighbors, and have sent mine around. Nobody steps foot on my doorstoop without the offer of sustenance, and if you are here when food is cooking you WILL eat.

Yes, good, nutritious food feeds the body and soul. A sense of humor about it is like dessert.

[JohnL]

even more alarming is an attempt by some posters to make "spiritual" comparisons--I won't even go there.

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It really shouldn't "alarm" you if there is nothing to it, or if you think the comment foolish.

No need for you to "go there". Some people might want to, though. You do want to be inclusive, I am sure.

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Well, if someone wants to go there, I have heard my share of "Thank you, Jesus" - "Hellelujah" - and "God, this is good" around the dinner tables I ate at as a child, and those my children ate at as children, and even today.

As far as food generosity is concerned, I have a bagful of cookies from neighbors, and have sent mine around. Nobody steps foot on my doorstoop without the offer of sustenance, and if you are here when food is cooking you WILL eat.

Yes, good, nutritious food feeds the body and soul. A sense of humor about it is like dessert.

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I couldn't have said it better!--nice response.

again-- the assumptions and generalizations and stereotyping are all i am noting.

[petite tête de chou]

Five years ago I moved from a city with a population of more than a half million to a town 35 miles away with a population of not more than 10,000. Now, I'm not talking a cute little retreat that city folks go to to "get away." I'm talking about a farmers-down-on-their-luck, if-ya-ain't-got-truck-WTF town. The kind of place that's held together with duct tape and nicotene. There are all the major food chains on the highway- McD, Taco Bell, Subway etc., two Chinese restaurants and one Mexican restaurant, Dominos, Safeway, Walmart and a hoppin' liquor store. That.is.it. Oh, and one diner open for breakfast and early lunch only. At least the view of the river is palatable.

The population is over 90% Caucasian. I bring this up because I have found much better food where there is racial diversity. And the few Hispanic and Asian folks that run the previously mentioned restaurants have, sadly, decided to offer only American-type ethnic dishes. Gloppy, overly salty-sweet, overcooked meats, no offal ( ) etc.

There is a small island about 15 miles away that offers seasonal produce but, uh, that.is.it. Whereas I was chowing down on fresh Thai spring-rolls, organic dairy, vegetables and fruits, chatting up the butcher at City Market, ordering fantastic curry take-out, I now have nothing. If I want anything tasty, unique, ethnic or organic I must grow it, hunt it, kill it or send away for it . I've certainly become a better home cook because of it. Even with all the smog and increasingly suffocating feeling that I get in a city larger than 10,000 I really, seriously, heart-breakingly miss it's wonderful food opportunities. But I'll never, ever move to a large city again. I just keep thinking that I need more land so that I can grow the garden that will, truly, sustain my household. -sigh-

Edited December 21, 2005 by petite tête de chou (log)

[JohnL]

If I'd grown up in Thailand I don't think I could shed the bias of such a difference in cost of living. that said even when you balance those differences I'd think food(as a % of disposable income) is higher in North america than elsewhere...except for Europe and extremely remote areas where you're basically eating transportation costs in your florida orange.

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HH expenditures % of income (fromEncyclopedia Britannica Almanac 2004)

food and tobacco and beverages Thailand: 37%

US: Food away from home: 5.7% Food at home: 7.9%

I am not sure what your point is. What do you mean by "bias"?

I do not know why we are attempting to compare these two countries.

They each have their pluses and minuses as far as places to live.

[JohnL]

petite!

well last I looked--no one has found Utopia-- yet!

You live in a truely beautiful area!

no one is saying America is paradise--food and eating in terms of quality and diversity for rich and poor is getting a lot better.

raw ingredients for home cooking and restaurants much better now than even ten years ago.

Let's not forget that we are climatically challenged (we have winter)--many areas rely on trucked in, flown in and frozen and/or canned foodstuffs. mailorder and the internet are a godsend for many. The move toward locally grown and raised food is really good and progressing.

By the way--while we are on the topic of Thailand cuisine--one of the best (and authentic--as far as I can tell) Thai restaurants anywhere is in a strip mall outside of Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania wish I could remember the name.