Best and worst non-French foods in France

[Ptipois]

As for culinary pride. The French chef's culinary pride is different from the average non-chef French person's culinary (national) pride which really doesn't exist.

So true.

The most chauvinistic Frenchman, the most bloated with national pride, will gladly feast on nems, phat thai, fajitas, colombo, and particularly couscous (a national dish), as long as they're good. There is simply no correlation between his bigotry and his culinary tastes.

EDIT: strange trying to explain one's culture(s) to others. 

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Yes, isn't it so?

[chefzadi]

I've been thinking about what Pierre said about the spicing of Moroccan cooking being toned down in Paris. He's correct. Moroccan cooking overall tends to use spices more consistently, meaing spices show up in most dishes. This style overlaps with Western Algeria. But this is not the cooking I grew up with. So the Magrhebi places in Paris were a bit assaultive to my tastes when I first tried. Now I've changed my mind and I always recommend people try in Paris.

The Setif style I grew up with was mild and delicate. Hardly ever any cinnamon, especially in savory dishes.

For a Magrhebi meal with lots of courses I prefer a mix of mild, spiced, hot, etc... Spiced dish after spiced dish overwhelms me. This isn't the French side of me speaking here either.

[Bux]

I've really been tied up for the past couple of days or I would never have let references to Peter Hoffman's comments on Pacaud's use of curry as reported by Adam Gopnik in From Paris to the Moon go by without my comment. I have, on more than one occasion, posted with great passion on this subject. Hoffman was talking about a particular dish I found to be one of the most sublime examples of French haute cuisine. It remains a singular memory and I was delighted to read another member's description of the langoustine, spinach and sesame wafer with curry sauce some years after I had it. As I may have mentioned before, I was reading Gopnik's book with great relish, until I came to that chapter mentioning Hoffman and his views on curry. I was furious and couldn't read any further. I picked the book up some time later and again couldn't get past that chapter. Finally, I just skipped the chapter and went on to enjoy the rest of the book, although never with the same enthusiasm.

Hoffman at the time, had evidently been studying Indian food with Madhur Jaffrey and very much under the influence of her teaching. I gather he had come to think of Indian cooking almost as a religion and it left no room for him to accept curry as it had been used in the western world for hundreds of years. It was a surprising and somewhat hypocritical view for Hoffman to take in light of the fact that his own food as evidenced at Savoy in NY, is a highly personal and very eclectic sort of fusion food.

There's at least one thread on this site, probably not in this forum, that has a good number of references to "curry" as a seasoning in France and England going back some five hundred years. I disagree that such use and its development apart from any Indian context is improper. What bothered me was not that Hoffman was entranced by what he had learned from Jaffrey, but how little he knew about the use of curry in French haute cuisine and its development. I was convinced it was Hoffman who was at fault by not taking the time to learn how curry was used in France before speaking out. Equally annoying was how unquestioning Gopnik was about the statement. I can't even recall what Gopnik was trying to prove at the time.

I suspect this is also an example of something that's not as simple as the French being insular. The French, at least through the late middle of the twentieth century, have tended not to ignore other cuisines, but to make them French rather than to demand "authenticity" as Americans so often do today. When I first came to Paris as a student and again as a young married person, I ate in a number of restaurants that I thought were typically French. The interesting thing is that at the time I really couldn't tell the different between the French bistros and the Greek and Balkan restaurants in the Fifth arrondissement. They all seemed to offer many of the same simple first courses and desserts for one thing. To some extent, even the Moroccan restaurants seemed very French to me even if they were a bit different in their specialties. It had a lot to do with the dominance of French cuisine, which not only conquered imported cuisines, but which was exported to serve as the formal standard for training many of the chefs in the western world. That was less true in Spain and Italy, but most true in the anglo speaking countries and many of the northern European countries reaching all the way to Russia, at least when the Czars were in power. French cuisine was he basis of our formal restaurant cuisine. "Insular" is not the proper term for such a wide reaching and dominating cultural influence.

[anzu]

And an interesting point too (the holiday destinations). But I'm going to Paris-proof it immediately. Where do Parisians go away on vacation, aside from staying in France?

Now I don't know exactly which is the n°1 vacationland for the French but the Mediterranean (Greece, Tunisia, Morocco) sure is successful. Now there are many North African restaurants but obviously there is a large North African population in France. Lots of French tourists go to Greece: of course there is Mavrommatis (which is fine) but apart from that, there are no good Greek restaurants in Paris. No comparison with Germany, where there are many Greek immigrants.

The recent appearance of chic or pseudo-chic Moroccan restaurants complete with wall carpets and riyad-like décor and outrageous prices is directly correlated to the recent status of Marrakech as the perfect Parisian jetsetter destination. But in the 70's and 80's the Number One destination for the rich and trendy was the Seychelles islands, and there never was more than one seychellois restaurant in Paris.

Judging from what I see around me and what a travel agent friend said to me recently, some of the preferred faraway destinations for the French are the French Carribean, Thailand and Mexico. There are some French Carribean restaurants in Paris, and many French Carribean people too. As for Thailand, there are many less Thai restaurants (the "Spécialités chinoises-vietnamiennes-thaïlandaises" places don't count as Thai) than the popularity of Thailand as a vacation destination should imply. Even less so for Mexico. Actually I don't believe there would be more and better Mexican restaurants in Paris if more Parisians went to Mexico. Demand is not always enough. There needs to be Mexicans to do the cooking.

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My suspicion here - and I had neither the time or the energy to write about it last night - it that in at least a certain number of these holiday destinations, the holiday-makers are again going to be eating food that is a 'parody of itself'. One would have to know not just how many people are going to the Seychelles, for example, but also what they are eating while they are there.

Greece is a case in point. I'm not an expert , but most of the books I read suggest that the food available in your run-of-the-mill restaurant in Greece falls quite short of what it could be. That is, the food is not necessarily bad, but it falls back on the same old dishes time and time again and frequently does not reflect the huge variety of regional specialties, let alone the amazing variety that is presented by the Greek-orthodox driven avoidance of meat dishes on certain days, etc.

So if people go to Greece, eat in restaurants, like the food, come home wanting to eat that type of food again, and a number of restaurants appear to cater to that demand, the likelihood is there that those restaurants will not offer high end cuisine, but instead the same old foods.

I can see this here in Germany with Croatian and Dalmatian restaurants. The food on offer is (IMO) pretty miserable when compared with how good cooking from the region can be, but for several decades this had been a favourite holiday destination for Germans. While there, they were almost certainly eating in a limited number of restaurants catering chiefly to holiday-makers, with a menu in German, waiters able to get by in German, etc. I doubt very much that what they were eating had much to do with the absolute highlights the cuisine might actually offer, but people liked it okay, and to a large extent are re-creating their holiday memories when going out to eat it.

If I pick up a travel brochure to Tunisia, for example, I'll find that an awful lot of what's on offer is a package deal to some hotel complex that is close to some beach, has two or three pools, and has three or four restaurants in the hotel complex, and not a single one of those restaurants offers Tunsian food! A lot of these hotels look as if they are quite hard to get to, and my suspicion is that a person staying there might not eat a single item of Tunisian food in their stay. It's too hard to go out, they've chosen the holiday destination on the basis of cost and/or water temperature, they're worried about hygiene or language issues, or whatever.

As to why the hotels are not offering Tunisian food at all - well, they're not catering to French tourists alone, so although the question is an interesting one, I don't think it can be attributed (only) to French predilections concerning food.

A disclaimer here. I have never been on the above type of holiday, and may be completely wrong about whether people are or are not eating local foods. I am extrapolating from seeing what tourists eat (and don't eat) in major European holiday destinations that I have visited, such as the Canary Islands. In those places, tourists were usually NOT eating the (exquisite) local cuisine.

I realise that what I'm saying to some degree contradicts my earlier statement about travel to a place broadening one's tastes. What I am trying to do is add some qualifying statements to what I wrote earlier. Last night I had little time and less energy.

And Pan: (this is irrelevent to France, but the issue did arise in this thread). I would still claim that a lot of restaurant food in India is pretty dire. Not all of it, by any means, but there is unfortunately a huge discrepancy between what there is and what there could be.

One example, I was in 'Dilli haat' in New Delhi earlier this year. This is an open-air food and craft emporium run by Delhi Tourism. It is meant to have stalls featuring food from all over India, including places not usually represented in the restaurant scene in India at all, such as Assam, Manipur, etc. I went there with high hopes and an empty stomach. I left disappointed, and still with an empty stomach. The food at all these 'regional places' was yet another rehash of the same old stuff available anywhere in Delhi. The Indian-Chinese 'Chicken Manchurian' and so on. No regional specialties whatsoever. I realise that what they have on offer is meant to change frequently - but no regional specialties whatsoever in a place that is meant to be offering only that?!

[mrsadm]

I remember shopping a few years ago in one of the larger department stores (Galleries Lafayette? can't remember exactly) that had a large gourmet food department with foods from all over the world.

They had a big display of El Paso products - canned beans, boxed taco shells, etc.

I just had to laugh! If that's what Parisians think good Mexican food is, then no wonder they don't seek it out in restaurants.

[Ptipois]

I just had to laugh!  If that's what Parisians think good Mexican food is, then no wonder they don't seek it out in restaurants.

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I agree. Now please do us a favor, send us plenty of Mexicans to show us the way! Preferrably Mexicans who can cook.

[Almass]

Here in France, French food is perceived as the epitome of living. It is the French way of life, it is the savoir vivre and it is the complete meal procession from the aperitif to the digestif and le pousse cafe.

The world over eats French, drinks French and pretends to speak French as the language of les salons.

French food has to do with a culture of savoir vivre with a culmination of arts a travers the painters, poets, philosophers, writers and yes even les ebenistes.

So being it Mexican, Chinese or other food, some elements have been adopted and incorporated in the French palette and the few "ethnic" restaurants that found their way to answer a local "ethnic" demand or to fill a "curios" gap will remain as a distraction and will not be part of the mainstream.

P.S. And to put inquiring mind at ease: This is strictly my opinion

Edited July 10, 2005 by Almass (log)

[vserna]

The world over eats French, drinks French and pretends to speak French as the language of les salons.

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Is this a serious statement or just a fond recollection of the world circa 1960?

Or, to put it as you would prefer...

"Est-ce là une affirmation sérieuse ou seulement un plaisant souvenir du monde tel qu'il était aux alentours de 1960?"

[Almass]

Je vous laisse le plaisir de le decouvrir vous meme.

Mais tout de meme vous n'aller pas me dire qu'a travers le monde les "grands" restaurants avec ou sans etoiles ne sont pas Francais? Et la pluspart des menus n'empruntent pas des mots et des plats Francais. Et les bon viveurs? Ils boivent quoi? Mais c'est du vin Francais bien sure. Finalement, Le Francais c'est bien le language de salon dans certains cercle sophistiques.

P.S. je suis sur un clavier non Francais donc je perd les accents.

I leave you the pleasure of discovering the matter yourself.

But, you are not going to tell me that the "grand" restaurants, with and without stars, in the world over are not French? And the menus do not borrow Fench dishes or French words. And the "bon viveur" what do they drink if it is not French wine. Finally, Is'nt French the language of the salons in sophisticated circles.

[chefzadi]

I remember shopping a few years ago in one of the larger department stores (Galleries Lafayette?  can't remember exactly) that had a large gourmet food department with foods from all over the world.

They had a big display of El Paso products - canned beans, boxed taco shells, etc. 

I just had to laugh!  If that's what Parisians think good Mexican food is, then no wonder they don't seek it out in restaurants.

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You see that in the States, even in LA the 'gourmet' stores carry some sort of packaged, premade, frozen Mexican foods. Even in areas that have lots of really good mom and pop Mexican restaurants, there are any number of Mexican chain restaurants. You'll see Mexican chain restaurants in predominantly Hispanic neighbors full of local patrons.

Anyway, I don't think that's what Parisians think good Mexican food is. It's an introduction. I don't know how far it will go. Not every country in the world will have good Mexican food or needs to.

[Ptipois]

Is this a serious statement or just a fond recollection of the world circa 1960?

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I'd have said 1920.

But I've looked carefully and I can testify that no waiter in our Chinese restaurants wears a long braid on their back.

Edited July 10, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[Ptipois]

You see that in the States, even in LA the 'gourmet' stores carry some sort of packaged, premade, frozen Mexican foods. Even in areas that have lots of really good mom and pop Mexican restaurants, there are any number of Mexican chain restaurants. You'll see Mexican chain restaurants in predominantly Hispanic neighbors full of local patrons.

France has many excellent Vietnamese and Southeast Asian restaurants, yet the small department of Asian ingredients in any supermarket — from greyish, sodden mung bean sprouts in a glass jar to average-quality soy sauce — is enough to make you cry. The same applies to the El Paso taco stuff, which isn't very successful anyway.

Anyway, I don't think that's what Parisians think good Mexican food is. It's an introduction. I don't know how far it will go. Not every country in the world will have good Mexican food or needs to. 

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It is not even Mexican ingredients, it is a limited range of Tex-Mex items. No, of course, that's not the Parisians' perception of Mexican food. Why is it so difficult to understand that once there isn't a Mexican diaspora in a country, there will be very little opportunity for good Mexican food?

[vserna]

But, you are not going to tell me that the "grand" restaurants, with and without stars, in the world over are not French? And the menus do not borrow Fench dishes or French words.

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El Bulli.

Ca Sento.

Mugaritz.

Las Rejas.

Welcome to Spain, circa 2005!

PS: Yes, that little faraway country - distance, zero kilometers from Hendaye...

[Fat Guy]

Ptipois, I'm glad you now seem to be acknowledging the existence of numerous factors other than immigration in determining the spread of non-French restaurants in France -- otherwise it would be hard to point to enough American immigrants to explain 900 McDonald's stores. I'm still, however, intrigued by the blanket assertion that "the French don't as a rule like spicy flavors but that this never was an obstacle to the opening of non-french restaurants that serve a de-spiced version of the original cuisines." How have you made this determination? What magic apparatus allows you to conclude that the number of Vietnamese restaurants in Paris serving de-spiced Vietnamese food to a capsicum-fearing public is exactly the same as the number of Vietnamese restaurants that would be serving piquant Vietnamese food in a hypothetical Paris where the population loved hot peppers and strong spice flavors?

[Jonathan Day]

...just compare eating Italian stuff in Menton with Ventimiglia, only a few klicks away...

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Menton/Ventimiglia is a great test for theories of culinary diffusion, since the border is open and the climate virtually identical. People in Ventimiglia seem perfectly comfortable in French, and I would guess most of the Mentonnais can get on in Italian. Yet, as John observes, Italian cuisine in Menton is forgettable and French cuisine across the Italian border is scarce. Take a few steps and everything changes!

[Almass]

But, you are not going to tell me that the "grand" restaurants, with and without stars, in the world over are not French? And the menus do not borrow Fench dishes or French words.

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El Bulli.

Ca Sento.

Mugaritz.

Las Rejas.

Welcome to Spain, circa 2005!

PS: Yes, that little faraway country - distance, zero kilometers from Hendaye...

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Ahhh, the famous Ferran Adriá.

"Grater le dessus et vous decouvrirez le dessous".

Quote: ...Adria, now 39, began his culinary career at age 21. Straight from his economics studies and military service, and without any formal kitchen training, he landed a temporary cooking job in 1984 at the two-star El Bulli. He was given a copy of the classic Escoffier Cook Book, which he memorized from front to back. "I read everything I could — I became my own university," the now-iconic chef says. Within a year of Adria's arrival, Julio Soler, the small restaurant's manager, unexpectedly found himself in need of a head chef. He knew he need not look elsewhere to fill the spot.

To prepare for his new role, Adria first began a grand tour of top kitchens in France. He then apprenticed at Georges Blanc in Vonnas and Restaurant Pic in Valence. In 1990, Adria and Soler purchased the restaurant and Adria began cooking food that nobody had ever seen before. In 1997, El Bulli received its third Michelin star...end quote

copyright: Carole Kotkin - Wine News Magazine 2002

Hummm, a wee bit of French influence I presume? Pas vrais?

[pierre45]

Ptipois, I'm glad you now seem to be acknowledging the existence of numerous factors other than immigration in determining the spread of non-French restaurants in France -- otherwise it would be hard to point to enough American immigrants to explain 900 McDonald's stores. I'm still, however, intrigued by the blanket assertion that "the French don't as a rule like spicy flavors but that this never was an obstacle to the opening of non-french restaurants that serve a de-spiced version of the original cuisines." How have you made this determination? What magic apparatus allows you to conclude that the number of Vietnamese restaurants in Paris serving de-spiced Vietnamese food to a capsicum-fearing public is exactly the same as the number of Vietnamese restaurants that would be serving piquant Vietnamese food in a hypothetical Paris where the population loved hot peppers and strong spice flavors?

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THe existence and proliferation of non french restaurants in paris is a function of market forces.In other words its a matter of demand and supply.

DEmand for ethnic food is created by new immigrants ,travel experiences and marketing( i,e Mcdonald).With new immigrants mom and pop joints start appearing to meet the need of immigrants, th're usually quite authentic,cheap & not fancy.With time better lit and larger restaurants start appearing geared mostly to the FRench ,therefore they are made to appeal to the french palate ,therefore spices are toned down.quality of ingredients improved and ending up sometimes with a refined version of the native cuisine.THe french in general demand high stds as a result some restaurant acheive a high level of culinary excellence.

Also because of the market some type of restaurants may flourish for a while and than disappear.i,e armenian.

[chefzadi]

I will post later about the development of North African restaurants in France. Maybe it will provide some insight in 'ethnic' French dining and how it developed.

Maybe Zeitoun can talk about Lebanese food in France and maybe compare it to what he sees in NY.

Again, the patterns of immigration are very different in France then in the States and opening a business in France takes much longer. There are so many factors here. Playing cultural anthropologist by looking at restaurants and grocery stores will provide shallow insights into "French culture".

EDIT: Cross post with Pierre, my post wasn't in response to his.

Edited July 10, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[Ptipois]

Ptipois, I'm glad you now seem to be acknowledging the existence of numerous factors other than immigration in determining the spread of non-French restaurants in France

I can't see that I now "seem to acknowledge" these factors. I always wrote that they did exist, but that they were quite unimportant and by no means the general rule. Just study the map of non-french restaurants in Paris if you have access to it, and draw the conclusions yourself.

otherwise it would be hard to point to enough American immigrants to explain 900 McDonald's stores.

The McDonald's chain as ethnic restaurants, and furthermore representative of the "non-french restaurant" situation in France? Surely you must be joking.

I'm still, however, intrigued by the blanket assertion that "the French don't as a rule like spicy flavors but that this never was an obstacle to the opening of non-french restaurants that serve a de-spiced version of the original cuisines." How have you made this determination?

By being born in France, living in France, precisely in Paris, and still being there today, my friend.

I didn't make this determination, this is only the truth. Why do you find this so difficult to accept?

What magic apparatus allows you to conclude that the number of Vietnamese restaurants in Paris serving de-spiced Vietnamese food to a capsicum-fearing public is exactly the same as the number of Vietnamese restaurants that would be serving piquant Vietnamese food in a hypothetical Paris where the population loved hot peppers and strong spice flavors?

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I fail to understand this question.

From what I do understand of it, I only have to say that if all Parisians loved hot peppers, there would be hot peppers everywhere. But not necessarily a different restaurant map. Perhaps we'd have started importing chillies from Mexico, and maybe some Mexicans would have come along with them on top of the bargain and opened plenty of restaurants. But this is only conjecture and not the way things really happen. And frankly, I really find it unlikely.

In any case, there is something you seem to overlook: there are a few different kinds of Vietnamese restaurants in Paris, reflecting the successive waves of immigration from Southeast Asia that arrived here from the 70's on. And some of them cater mostly to Vietnamese people living in Paris (though native Parisians seem to love them more and more, chilli or not). That should suffice as an explanation.

Anyway, since you seem to know the non-French-restaurant situation in Paris better than I do, I beg you to please enlighten me. What misled me in the first place is that this thread was started by some questions of yours.

[Ptipois]

DEmand for  ethnic food is created by new immigrants ,travel experiences and marketing( i,e Mcdonald).With new immigrants mom and pop joints start appearing to meet the need of  immigrants, th're usually quite authentic,cheap & not fancy.With time better lit and larger restaurants start appearing geared mostly to the FRench ,therefore they are made to appeal to the french palate ,therefore spices are toned down.quality of ingredients improved and ending  up sometimes with a refined version of the native cuisine.THe french in general demand high stds as a result some restaurant acheive a high level of culinary excellence.

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A few remarks on this seductive but slightly-too-mechanical-to-be-true explanation:

- The places catering for new immigrants are not necessarily small "mom and pop" joints. They can be quite large, busy restaurants, though they are generally cheap. They are a sign of the fact that newly arrived communities are beginning to get more organized, and some of them do get organized very fast.

- I know a few "better lit and larger" restaurants that appeared recently but they are not geared mostly to the French. A quick look at the clientèle and type of food served is enough to see that. Size and lighting are not good criteria to judge the potential public of such restaurants, especially in recent years. The most authentic Chinese food in Paris, for instance, may be found in some of those large, busy, cheap, canteen-like places.

- Among those new and larger places, there are exceptions but (Moroccan pseudo-riyad set aside) I can think only of one type, the chic Thai restaurant hoping to cater to those lucky French who have been to Thailand. I know two examples, and one of them is a chain, another one is located in the Southern Paris Chinatown. It is true that spices are toned down but the quality of ingredients is not particularly improved. The quality is much better in more "genuine" places. And the most refined version of native cuisine is to be found also in the more genuine places catering mostly to immigrants. Thai and Lao restaurants are an interesting example because one can see the situation changing right before one's eyes: until now, there wasn't a very large Thai community in Paris. Though this needs confirming, I believe this is changing gradually and perhaps more Thai restaurants will appear in the near future. Warning signs can be spotted in many of the large food stores in the 13e arrondissement Chinatown.

- I mildly disagree with the assertion that the French, generally, demand high standards. They certainly do as far as French food is concerned (and even so...), but they are not as discerning concerning non-French cuisines, especially when they don't know much about them. Though we have our share of true open-minded gourmets, of which I know quite a few, I have also been appalled seeing what some of my countrymen are able to swallow under a Chinese, Indian, Japanese or any other non-French label. So the quality situation in non-French restaurants is not that easy to decide. It takes a lot of tasting and trying.

[vserna]

Pas vrais?

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(It's pas vrai in correct French... A defender of the true French supremacy shouldn't indulge in such typos...)

Yeah, yeah. You seem so well versed on the Spanish scene...

Oh! Ferran has toured the kitchens of his buddies Charlie Trotter and Heston Blumenthal extensively too. So, yes, he also has American and British influences. And Chinese. And Japanese. A true UN. Shameless copycats, I tell you.

Indeed everyone on the international scene and in eGullet is agreed: El Bulli is a French restaurant-wannabe.

The Spanish culinary revolution is really the 1970 Nouvelle Cuisine redux.

Way to go!

PS Ever heard of Ca Sento, Mugaritz, Las Rejas? You should see the well-worn copies of the Escoffier cook book they keep in their kitchens!

[chefzadi]

THe existence and proliferation of non french restaurants in paris is a function of market forces.In other words its a matter of demand and supply.

DEmand for ethnic food is created by new immigrants ,travel experiences and marketing( i,e Mcdonald).With new immigrants mom and pop joints start appearing to meet the need of immigrants, th're usually quite authentic,cheap & not fancy.With time better lit and larger restaurants start appearing geared mostly to the FRench ,therefore they are made to appeal to the french palate ,therefore spices are toned down.quality of ingredients improved and ending up sometimes with a refined version of the native cuisine.THe french in general demand high stds as a result some restaurant acheive a high level of culinary excellence.

Also because of the market some type of restaurants may flourish for a while and than disappear.i,e armenian.

You sound like a French chef.

I don't think it's always accurate to judge 'authenticy' based on spicing. Not that you aggressively made that assertion. And it is not my intent to be contentious at all.

I've already mentioned that absolutely authentic Algerian dishes often times lack spicing entirely. Korean Temple cooking is absent of garlic, an ingredient that is strongly associated with Korean food and Buddhist cooking is known for having lots of mild and delicate dishes. Traditional Korean Yangban and Royal court cooking is also know for being milder, with a range of dishes that are delicately flavored. Koreans have a range of soups that are clean, refreshing and here's that word again, "mild". I didn't try Vietnamese in Paris, but I have tried it in LA/OC where there is no shortage of Vietnamese restaurants, some say possibly the best outside of Vietnam, maybe better given the current economic situation in Vietnam. Alot of the dishes are very mild with no chilis. The natives oftentimes have highly refined versions of their own cuisines without having to create something new to cater to anyone else's tastes. Sometimes 'high' cuisine is temporarily lost through war, colonialism, economic challenges, etc...

(as a side note to my fellow French. The featured French chef in Le Cordon Bleu North America informercial is none other than ME with my smiling Algerian mug. Are you proud of me? )

[Ptipois]

I didn't try Vietnamese in Paris, but I have tried it in LA/OC where there is no shortage of Vietnamese restaurants, some say possibly the best outside of Vietnam, maybe better given the current economic situation in Vietnam. Alot of the dishes are very mild with no chilis.

This is quite normal. There may be a lot of chilli in the Vietnamese diet (though never as much as in Thailand), but usually not directly in the food. The chilli is most of the time presented on the side, as a sauce or as whole fresh peppers to break up and add to your plate at table. Dishes and soups are served without chillis. So it is inaccurate to speak of "spiced down" Vietnamese food just because the dishes contain no chillies. The spiced-down versions are only the ones where no side dishes of fresh or pickled chillies are provided.

The natives oftentimes have highly refined versions of their own cuisines without having to create something new to cater to anyone else's tastes. Sometimes 'high' cuisine is temporarily lost through war, colonialism, economic challenges, etc...

As far as Asian food is concerned, catering to Western tastes often means serving a less refined version of the cuisine.

(as a side note to my fellow French. The featured French chef in Le Cordon Bleu North America informercial is none other than ME with my smiling Algerian mug. Are you proud of me? )

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Wow. Where can we see that?

[Pan]

A few comments:

(1) French cuisine is certainly very influential in the West, but has little relevance in many parts of Asia. It's not necessary to exaggerate the influence and worldwide importance of French cuisine; its influence and importance are great enough without exaggeration.

(2) I wonder whether spicing levels differ in different parts of France. I had a favorite Vietnamese restaurant in Nice the two summers I spent there. I went there repeatedly and did not find the spicing timid, and I'd say I have a healthy appreciation for that great American vegetable (well, in a biological sense, fruit), the chili pepper. That said, I find that Vietnamese food -- possibly due to French influence, even? -- often has a kind of subtle blending that distinguishes it from, say, Thai cuisine. True, I have yet to visit Vietnam and have (very briefly) visited Thailand, but I get the sense that balance between different flavors is important in Vietnamese food, and that it doesn't have to be blindingly hot. Just as another data point, there was a mid-priced La Reunion-style restaurant in the same part of Nice that served well-balanced but quite spicy (from peppercorns or/and hot pepper) food that was fantastic, but it was closed by the second summer I was there.

(3) Also a question to Jonathan: Is Italian food better in Nice than Menton? I found Italian food in Nice quite serviceable and, in one particular restaurant, memorable. And there was also a restaurant in Vieux Nice with a Corsican chef/owner that served very Italian-like food and was quite good. I guess I also feel like Provencale food generally is as much a regional Italian as a regional French style, and is one or the other mainly because of accidents of history that determined the current borders between the two countries.

Edited July 11, 2005 by Pan (log)

[Bux]

But, you are not going to tell me that the "grand" restaurants, with and without stars, in the world over are not French? And the menus do not borrow Fench dishes or French words.

←

El Bulli.

Ca Sento.

Mugaritz.

Las Rejas.

Welcome to Spain, circa 2005!

PS: Yes, that little faraway country - distance, zero kilometers from Hendaye...

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An interesting choice of restaurants, although an obvious choice of country. Adrià has been influenced greatly by French cuisine and by French chefs, I just don't know enough about the history of the other chefs, but having eaten in all the restaurants named in the past couple of years, I'd have to say the evidence of the influence is becoming subliminal at best. Surely the foundation is still there and surely that foundation will continue to be part of academic cooking school curricula, but I sense the creative influences being felt by the next generation of chefs in the western world are coming from south of the Pyrenees more than from any other single source. Make what you want of it, but standing in Adrià's kitchen, I was told that he owed more to chefs in the US, than in those in France. Was that hyperbole for a visiting American, or an honest tribute to uninhibited creativity? I don't know. From my perspective, the discipline I saw in Adrià's food was not reminiscent of the unsupportable "creativity" I've seen in American fusion cooking.

The most influential chefs of the moment, may be those who were influenced by French haute cuisine, but who themsleves are Spanish. Within a few years, it appears that the French influence will be one generation further away. Ca Sento, Mugaritz and Las Rejas don't really remind me of French cuisine very much. When they do, it's often because of a weak dish. Don't get me wrong, there are wonderful French chefs still in their prime or not yet in their prime, but they don't exert the international influence they might have been expected to a half century ago.

At the same time, I'd repeat my earlier comment that for all the influence French chefs may have on the generation of Spanish chefs that revolutionized Spanish restaurant cooking, French cuisine has never dominated the fanciest or finest restaurants in Spain and Italy as it has in the north of Europe and the new world. I'm also not sure this train of thought and sub topic are germane to the discussion started by Fat Guy. I may have been the one who took the train off track, nevertheless it may be time to take a look at the thread and for me or one of the other hosts to trim the distracting posts.