The State of Triangle (NC) Dining and Food

[phlawless]

Numbers breed Competition, we just need MORE of what we already have. Southeastern Fusion is a brilliant concept. Cheese Grits souffles, fried softshell crabs, NIMAN ranch pork(sweet tea brine), my favorites(Thanks Ben!!!) ShabuShabu is cool. There are numerous joints i haven't had the time or duckets to eat at. Were getting there.

just to nitpick:

Ben didn't come up with the sweet tea brine; it came from the old chef at Blackberry farm in Tennessee...not that Ben doesn't do it exceptionally well!

[ChefSwartz]

Ben didn't come up with the sweet tea brine; it came from the old chef at Blackberry farm in Tennessee...not that Ben doesn't do it exceptionally well!

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Who's to say? Origination of idea is completely disputable. Genius is commonplace these days, ideas coordinate from across the globe without communication. Just because one man has an idea doesn't mean another doesn't have the same idea. I have come up with hundreds of concepts, only to be thwarted by the publication of it somewhere.

So is it still MY idea?

In all honesty who cares, who gets the credit?

I derive great satisfaction from reading my best works, without even writing them.

Edited April 18, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[debbiemoose]

My take on why Raleigh lags behind involves some history (I've lived here, geez, almost 20 years). When I moved here, there was the Angus Barn, mediocre Chinese and not much else. Raleigh was the Legislature and all that came with it: lobbyists, PR people, expense account eating, men who wanted big 'ol hunks o meat. It has taken a long time, and a variety of new arrivals and culinary awareness, to shake off that history of conservative (small c) dining. Chapel Hill and Durham were always viewed as more adventurous, wacky. Many of you probably have heard the apocryphal Jesse Helms comment from the '70s: If NC needs a zoo, just put a fence around Chapel Hill. :)

[detlefchef]

Ben didn't come up with the sweet tea brine; it came from the old chef at Blackberry farm in Tennessee...not that Ben doesn't do it exceptionally well!

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Do we have the makings of another Manresa Restaurant Arpege Egg scandal that rocked the CA forum for so long?

[Varmint]

I doubt it. Phlawless has worked at Magnolia Grill for ages and is merely informing us of a fairly well-known fact.

Debbie, I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the state of Raleigh dining. Fortunately, it is changing and very good restaurants are to be found in the city. Still, 42nd Street Oyster Bar packs 'em in!

[ChefSwartz]

I doubt it.  Phlawless has worked at Magnolia Grill for ages and is merely informing us of a fairly well-known fact.

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What is your name phlawless? Maybe you remember me? still working at the grill?

p.s. i am not crediting ben for the thing just turning me on to it.

Edited April 19, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[phlawless]

Working in Durham while living and dining (mostly) in Raleigh allowed me a unique perspective on the triangle dining scene. I don't know how much this affects the individual diner, but there is a definite lack of 'community' in Raleigh that exists in Durham/Chapel Hill among restaurants. There is a greater exchange of communication, a shared labor pool, interest in product providence...overall a friendlier feeling among restaurants...not to say that a healthy air of competition isn't present. Maybe this has to do with the ratio of franchise to indies that have flourished in Raleigh and the chasm that would naturally arise between them.

ChefSwartz:

I worked as the pastry chef under Karen for seven years...I left in February to have a baby.

Sorry to say that I haven't heard enough about you to remember!

[ChefSwartz]

ChefSwartz:

I worked as the pastry chef under Karen for seven years...I left in February to have a baby.

Sorry to say that I haven't heard enough about you to remember!

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Phoebe!? is that you? u HAVE to remember me, Mike. Heaven Hill? you came to a birthday party at my house.

I know we never exchanged last names or internet handles. Congrats on your baby, I heard just the other week when i was at the grill.

Edited April 19, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[ChefSwartz]

" There is a greater exchange of communication, a shared labor pool, interest in product providence...[in durham/ch hill]"

i have to agree somewhat, but the exchange of communication usually means, "what kinda dope you got?", and shared labor usually means , "i cant work for this guy anymore!" .

I think there is an equally shared interest in product providence.

and the community is smaller, thus closer together.

Edited April 19, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[Zeb A]

I would like to see more good restaurants in the Triangle as much as the next person would, but, I think we have to ask, to what are we comparing the Triangle? If you took the top 5 restaurants in the Triangle (say, Magnolia Grill, Nana's, Fearrington House, Vin, and Fins) and compare them to the top 5 resturants in similarly sized (or some even bigger) cities, I suspect that you would find that the Triangle compares favorably. For example, consider the following cities that I have spent some time in the last five or so years: Charlotte, Richmond, Denver, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, New Orleans, and Baltimore. I don't think any of these cities can beat the Traingle (and some of them can't even come close). The fact of the matter is, outside the major cities like NY, Boston, Chicago, DC, SF, etc., it is difficult to find great restaurants of this variety. That's not to say that it is difficult to find great food, great restaurants with local flavor, etc., but when looking for a top-notch up-scale restaurant in Random US city X, it can be a challenge.

So, I think the Triangle (thanks in large part to Magnolia Grill), does a pretty good job when compared to its "competition." Nonetheless, I still wish we had more options because I like to eat out.

[BryanZ]

I think what Zeb A sums up the situation pretty well. The Triangle's best restaurants are good restaurants and probably hold their own against all but the big boys in the biggest cities. Still, I think that the dining segment that is characterized by very good food with flashes of brilliance at a price level where most people can afford to be semi-regulars is what is most lacking. In my personal experience, I have yet to find a restaurant that I can fall in love with while still being able to come back to every other week or so and still be excited by the food. I'm still looking though and have learned a lot from the people on this thread.

[ChefSwartz]

If you took the top 5 restaurants in the Triangle (say, Magnolia Grill, Nana's, Fearrington House, Vin, and Fins) and compare them to the top 5 resturants in similarly sized (or some even bigger) cities, I suspect that you would find that the Triangle compares favorably. 

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I agree

[Milagai]

i'm a happy triangle resident, and generally agree with

several strands of the previous discussion that

there are several good places here, but not large numbers....

i like:

pao lim in durham

GREAT fusion pan-asian food, and serves

some of my favorite indo-chinese dishes

(yes, this is a legit food genre).

it's not high end, not a chain, but not a

mom and pop hole in the wall either.

pretty nice mid range place....

the better indian restaurants tend to be towards

cary / raleigh. none in chapel hill (some real clunkers)

and 1-2 in durham....

then there are penang, tallulah's,

cafe parvaneh, and other pretty neat places

in chapel hill..

milagai

[challah-baker]

Has BryanZ tried Lantern yet?

[BryanZ]

I'm not familiar with it. I'll look into right now, in fact.

On a separate note, can anyone recommend and middle-line, non-chain steakhouse. I'm not talking Dry-Aged Prime cuts here, just some quality meat that's not Outback or Lonestar or whatever. PM with recommendations if you can. Thanks.

[ChefSwartz]

RIO, the brazilian buffet at macgregor downs is great. only $10 for lunch! $25 for dinner

[BryanZ]

RIO, the brazilian buffet at macgregor downs is great. only $10 for lunch!  $25 for dinner

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Do you know how Rio comapares to Chamas in Brightleaf Square Mall in Durham. I enjoyed Chamas when I went.

[challah-baker]

On speaking with several people lately, Mr. BryanZ, both those who work in restaurants and those who eat there, the same question has come up. How do you fund these excusions to all these restarurants? I remember from my college days being confined to either dorm food or ramen. Not to pry, or anything, but enquiring readers want to know...

[BryanZ]

On speaking with several people lately, Mr. BryanZ, both those who work in restaurants and those who eat there, the same question has come up.  How do you fund these excusions to all these restarurants?  I remember from my college days being confined to either dorm food or ramen.  Not to pry, or anything, but enquiring readers want to know...

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You could say that I place no price on food (although my father regularly disagrees with this mantra). Seriously though, I've grown up loving food so my parents more or less accept that once or maybe twice a week I'll go out and try a new restaurant. I guess it's kind of selfish, but I consider it part of my education. I also want to get more involved in the culinary scene in this area, and I figure it can't hurt to have a strong feel for the local restaurants, their menus, and general dining trends in the Triangle. I also research a lot of restaurants without going to them. I, regretably, use Citysearch a lot and local newspapers etc., then I read menus and reviews, that kind of thing. This narrows down where I do end up spending my money and gives me a better sense of what's popular.

Edited April 24, 2005 by BryanZ (log)

[ChefSwartz]

ahhhhh studen life, on any given day as a culinare student I could eat foie gras and cup-o-ramen. isnt life great

Edited April 25, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[nhconner]

On speaking with several people lately, Mr. BryanZ, both those who work in restaurants and those who eat there, the same question has come up.  How do you fund these excusions to all these restarurants?  I remember from my college days being confined to either dorm food or ramen.  Not to pry, or anything, but enquiring readers want to know...

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Im not trying to be nasty here, but what difference does it make?

BryanZ was gracious enough to answer the question, but I would not have. O, Im a drug dealer, O I have a trust fund, O I forge checks, or O I have a second job, blah blah. Why does it matter? Who really wants to know or cares?

I dont know why I am flaming about this as I really dont like flaming online, but it just got to me.

As a disclaimer, I hate the way Americans always start the conversation with "So what do you do"?

I know this was not meant to cause my reaction challah baker, so please dont take this the wrong way. This is not an attack on you. Im not meaning to offend here, but I was bursting.

Nate

[Random Alias]

On speaking with several people lately, Mr. BryanZ, both those who work in restaurants and those who eat there, the same question has come up.  How do you fund these excusions to all these restarurants?  I remember from my college days being confined to either dorm food or ramen.  Not to pry, or anything, but enquiring readers want to know...

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Im not trying to be nasty here, but what difference does it make?

BryanZ was gracious enough to answer the question, but I would not have. O, Im a drug dealer, O I have a trust fund, O I forge checks, or O I have a second job, blah blah. Why does it matter? Who really wants to know or cares?

I dont know why I am flaming about this as I really dont like flaming online, but it just got to me.

As a disclaimer, I hate the way Americans always start the conversation with "So what do you do"?

I know this was not meant to cause my reaction challah baker, so please dont take this the wrong way. This is not an attack on you. Im not meaning to offend here, but I was bursting.

Nate

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So Nate, what do you do that money is such a touchy subject for you?

j/k

[nhconner]

Im a porn star.

This vent is for another thread, but it does piss me off when introductions and identities are based on ones occupations. IMHO asking someone "how can you afford that?" is a bit off-putting humorous or not. Not trying to make a big deal here, just saying what comes out.

By the way I ate nice meals in college too and that led me to learn about credit card debt. It was a tasty lesson. I was a NC boy, one hour from NYC and Philly, I could not help myself.

To gear up to the thread, Here in Greensboro the food scene has vastly improved since I left for Pennsylvania in 1992 and moved back in 2001. Its the kind of town where with for every opening there is a closing, and that was much needed. I feel the same as many who have posted from the RDU area in that if you take the best five, its pretty darn good compared to any city outside the great food destinations. We lack good casual French/bistro cuisine well priced in a casual setting and great Japanese, but this is to be expected as I feel such places would eventually fail.

Folks here go out for interesting innovative cuisine as a special occasion or a big date out, not just dinner, so all the great ingredients in this town are jazzed up, heaped on and priced in the $20-30 range, keeping things the same.

Things are changing though and I will pipe back in as folks comment on my comments.

Nate

[BryanZ]

Well welcome to the discussion Nate. I'm curious why you think moderately priced French Bistro fare and high-end Japanese would fail. I think the Triangle lacks one central location where we could have a "restaurant row", but I also feel like there are enough people in the area willing to drive 20 minutes for good food (there are certainly enough people ready to wait at least 20 minutes at Outback or Macaroni Grill). I think the interesting dynamic here is the relationship between "special occasion" dining and having a few good restaurants that one can consistently rely on for good and sometimes creative food. If one wants to spend $25+ for an entree there are definitely good places to do that (as the majority of us here have established), but I still think that something not quite as pricey would be immensely successful. That is why I wonder why you, Nate, think a French Bistro or a traditional, quality Japanese restaurant would fail (as they price themselves perfectly in the $15-$25 entree range). Although I have never been, restaurants like Starlu seem to be on the right path for Triangle dining.

[detlefchef]

Bryan, I think Nate's remarks about a bistro or Japanese place not making it was in reference to Greensboro.

The more I think of it, the more I'm beginning to believe that it does come down to the restaurants and not the diners. (Which is basically a 180 degree turn from my original remarks in this thread). I can think of essentially no places that serve an honestly good product (and have with some consistancy) and market themselves reasonably well that aren't doing great. I've lived in plenty of places where one could not say that. Some great little restaurants just got lost in the shuffle and limped along for a while before closing their doors.

Perhaps the raging success of chains around here has more to do with the fact that there are just so damned many people eating out, not that they'd rather go to Mangiano's if there was another, better option.

I was talking to a friend from back home in Northern California who runs a great bistro. Nobody has any money to spend. Customers complain about $20 entrees mostly because they're trying to pay the mortgage on their $500K+ home with an income no higher than what we make out here.

I do agree that the thing we are missing the most of is that everyday meal. I don't think, however, that segment is going to be filled by upscale-ish places that happen to be a few bucks below the norm because in those cases, you often do get what you pay for. I typically find myself wishing that I'd just sucked it up, spent a few more dollars, and ate at Nana's. That market is always best represented by straight forward, focused concepts (often ethnic). A good Chinese restaurant, a Pho house, a great deli, good taquerias, a real tapas joint. That sort of thing.

Of course, what we not going to get is any more substantial ethnic enclaves driving truly authentic cuisine. If there was a chance of that happening, it was before home prices started going up. Places like I listed above will be opened, but more often than not, they'll be opened by white-boy enthusiast like me.

Oh, and by the way. I completely agree with Nate that it should be anybody's business where Bryan gets his money.

Edited April 26, 2005 by detlefchef (log)