Defensive Chefs

[jhlurie]

Folks, since this is a very volatile topic, I feel I have to break in for a moment with a reminder that ideally we should be talking about the topic and not each other.

I understand that this is particularly difficult in this case, since this issue illustrates an inevitable divide in our own membership--between food professionals and consumers--but I'm going to ask anyway. If you read something you disagree with, by all means, argue it. But let's be careful to try and be aware of each other's sensitivities.

[winesonoma]

If I like your place I will tell 10 people immediately, If I don't I will tell everyone I meet until your out of business or I die. I live in a tourist town and constantly get asked where to eat. I have places that I like and places I'd never go to and those don't get mentioned, not dissed, just not mentioned. I only diss to people I know.  

←

If that is your picture in the avatar, I thoroughly enjoy the fact that you are using the word "diss".

←

Hey I'm from Brooklyn NY and can say what I want. Actual email to a local place tonight after I walked out.

"I went in to have dinner tonight and ordered a glass of Richardson Syrah. It tasted of the barnyard and was at least 70 degrees. Based upon this first impression, I paid for the wine which I did not drink and left to have dinner elsewhere. Very bad first impression, as it was my first visit to your new location. I am a local and may try again but I can't guarantee it. It's the small things that make for a good experience and warm wine says to me you don't care. You lost a customer tonight. Think about it. Bruce"

Edited March 17, 2005 by winesonoma (log)

[touaregsand]

Nobody here is begging for food or begging for customers. Happy medium somewhere?

[stovetop]

QUOTE(stovetop @ Mar 16 2005, 05:41 PM)

We restaurant people spend more time at work then at home

farns

"How is this even relevant?"

First of all in this discussion, I am taking things only so serious, We are customers too, and we restaurant people eat out a lot compared to eating at home. I was just trying to express a point of view and never is anything I say directed at anyone in this posting, it is always about things in general and maybe about an experience we have about a particular scenario.

This is relevant because it really dictates the flow of a restaurant with someone there all the time, second I am not winning about things it is just the life and I myself choose it and would not be in it for 25 years if I could not please a customer but we still choose who becomes a reg customer. They( reg customers) will always be gold to me and they are always right. The problem with spending so much time at work you can get a bit tired at times and This is never an excuse but reality and it is part of a good management system, and you never do your business any good. at some point in time, for me I will just hide in the kitchen if I am not in a good mood, it is better for business.

steve

[TheFoodTutor]

I had lunch a few years ago with the president of a small local bank, a client I was doing some work for. Nice place, I had been there before and been impressed. The food was great, but the service was terrible and the waitress lipped off to the bank president over some trivial issue he had (he wanted more ice in his water, I think). We saw her do the same to another customer at another table. He is an easygoing guy and laughed it off, but I was appalled and never took another client to that restaurant.

I agree totally that having a bad server experience is completely indicative of the business practices of the owner and/or chef, as much as having a bad experience with front of house management is indicative of how loanworthy that business is.

Now, whether someone has enough ice for his or her water is a pretty trivial issue, but it's not likely to provoke snarls from waitstaff IF they are working at a place they believe in, and which believes in them in return. You do have to give a little to get something in return.

Now, I'm not saying anything revolutionary, as far as actually paying servers minimum wage in the US, providing health insurance or any of the many costly things that could push a good restaurant out of business, if one stepped out of line with all of the other restaurants and started treating servers like regular employees. God forbid that should happen, since the norm dicates that this would be so prohibitively expensive that restaurant owners who are driven by morals would certainly lose out to those who are not, but anyway. . .

But, frankly, there are a lot of mistakes that restaurants here make when dealing with their "sub-human" server employees. For instance:

*If you're running a special, and the chef brings out a 3-ounce taste for a staff of 14 servers to get an idea of what it tastes like on the first night of the special, but on subsequent nights doesn't offer even a small taste of this special for the 30% of the staff that didn't work on the one night that a minuscule taste was offered, expect that this staff will not effectively sell this special.

*If servers ask questions about preparations, portion sizes and ingredients, and they are met with looks of disdain from the chef for their ignorance, expect that they will become bitter.

*If your restaurant has a policy that there is no family meal, no employee discount of any kind, and a server can be fired for even sneaking a crumb of bread during a shift as long as 14 hours, or for trying to pay full price for food taken home in a "to go" box at the end of the shift, expect that the servers will be so bitter that they will not represent your restaurant in an appropriate manner.

Some of the things I've seen in this business are frankly appalling. If you provide an environment where servers are met with anything not resembling hostility, they generally tend to try to do their jobs as well as humanly possible. Honestly, this is elementary stuff, and yet so many restaurants do it so, so wrong. For crying out loud, you're getting a full time employee for $2.13 an hour with no benefits of any kind, people! How hard is it to treat that person with a teensy bit of respect? And I ask this as someone who has been thoroughly surprised with the dedication I've seen from my server employees as a manager.

If you decide to treat your employees like crap, they will communicate to your customers that they should go somewhere else, period.

[stovetop]

Nice speach!

I agree with so much of what you say, happy staff, happy customer, Is my philosophy

steve

[RETREVR]

Concerning word of mouth...

Every group of friends has at least one person that will not be happy no matter what. You treat people in context. If someone comes in and has a complaint, you handle it. If that person is unreasonable, you are doing yourself and the other paying customers a disservice by allocating all your resources to someone that will not be happy no matter what you do for them. One of our friends has a wife that is a total bitch. There is no way to please her. When she tells us that a restaurant sucks, we know her opinion has no cred. She will fall in love with a restaurant if the server, busboy, manager, chef, all have no spine, even if the food and service sucks. She basically enjoys going out to be rude to the staff. These restaurants run around in circles for her. The first time a server refuses an unreasonable request......"this restaurant sucks". I once saw her ask the server which pastas they had prepared. Out of the five shapes, none of them where suitable. You see, she wanted a half order of the spaghetti and meatballs, but wanted linguini instead of spaghetti.

I have an old freind that complains about the food no matter what. Litteraly, every time we go out to eat, he will complain about the food. He is not really a food snob, he will never send anything back to the kitchen, and he will genuinly enjoy his meal. He gets his meal comped 50% of the time. The comp can encourage problems, and should be used sparingly. A restaurant that has a loose policy of comping food will have a much higher rate of complaints than one that handles complaints case by case. You have to be reasonable with customers. Sometimes a customer will not be reasonable with you. Of those times, sometimes you have to bend, sometimes you don't. Of those times that you have to be strict, sometimes the customer will come around and be reasonable, sometimes they won't. Bad customers can make for a very unpleasant dining room.

There are two sides to every story. Every time I tell a story, I portray myself as completely justified and in the right. I would be interested to hear the same story from the other point of view. I am not saying that Randi did something wrong or is impossible to please, but there is always another perspective that may or may not shed light on why the situation was handled the way it was.

[FaustianBargain]

Now, what really bothers me is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that it was not an inappropriate reaction.

With respect, I think there might be a reason for that.

←

Yes?

←

Seriously? I think the reason no one agrees with you is that your judgment of this situation is off, for a whole lot of reasons that people have already explained.

←

I'd probably be tickled silly if the chef took the time to come all the way outside to explain to me how he cooks his food and what went into it.

But I think I finally see where you guys come from. It will be helpful while evaluating future situations and for reference. Thanks.

[Busboy]

Now, what really bothers me is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that it was not an inappropriate reaction.

With respect, I think there might be a reason for that.

←

Yes?

←

Seriously? I think the reason no one agrees with you is that your judgment of this situation is off, for a whole lot of reasons that people have already explained.

←

I'd probably be tickled silly if the chef took the time to come all the way outside to explain to me how he cooks his food and what went into it.

But I think I finally see where you guys come from. It will be helpful while evaluating future situations and for reference. Thanks.

←

The reason people tend not to agree with you is that common sense demands that one give greater weight to the opinion of someone who took part in the event being described (Randi) than someone who was not even there to see it (you), regardless of the latter's barrister-like ability to parse posts.

[FaustianBargain]

Busboy, fair enough. Flawed reasoning, but fair enough.

If the same thing happened in French Laundry or Daniel or ADNY, nobody would complain. Any dining group would be grinning ear to ear to rub noses with the top chef. Even though, it is highly likely that they wont come out considering the formality of these dining establishments.

When, in fact, one should expect it from such establishments where one deals with corporations or semi-corporations. (__!__) is a tiny, NEW restaurant run by a husband and a wife..for godsakes! Some of us like to bemoan the loss of neighbourhood mom and pop joints that leave us a warm and fuzzy glow. You know what...mom would whup your ass if you complained about her crabcakes. The whole deal is about informal dining. Reasonable expectations. If I waltz into The Plaza, Paris, I'd be happy if they curtsey on my way in and out of the ladies room. Reasonable expectations.

edited to add: Randi, deleted as requested.

Edited March 17, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[Tess]

The reason people tend not to agree with you is that common sense demands that one give greater weight to the opinion of someone who took part in the event being described (Randi) than someone who was not even there to see it (you), regardless of the latter's barrister-like ability to parse posts.

I don't agree that that's common sense. I never assume an eyewitness account is all that reliable in the first place. I am certainly assuming in this case that the story was not fabricated, but it could be inaccurate in some ways. (No personal comment on you, Randi; this is just about the nature of the argument.) But my take on it is that we're arguing about the story *as told,*more or less. Then it becomes about interpretation.

I agree that there should be a middle ground and there should be some level of mutual respect in these situations. I think people on both sides should not assume that people are out to get you, but that's easier said than done.

[Randi]

... is a tiny, NEW restaurant run by a husband and a wife..for godsakes! Some of us like to bemoan the loss of neighbourhood mom and pop joints that leave us a warm and fuzzy glow. You know what...mom would whup your ass if you  complained about her crabcakes. The whole deal is about informal dining. Reasonable expectations. If I waltz into The Plaza, Paris, I'd be happy if they curtsey on my way in and out of the ladies room. Reasonable expectations.

←

I intentionally didn't mention the name of the restaurant, so that this thread wouldn't come up if someone Googled the name...if it's not too late to edit it, would you mind taking the restaurant name out of your post?

I know I did mention all of this in my NJ post, and now I almost wish I hadn't, for that reason.

I don't want them unjustly punished for this incident. I was not upset, just kind of embarrassed and taken aback. And I am going to be returning. I LIKE the place.

Randi

[Busboy]

The reason people tend not to agree with you is that common sense demands that one give greater weight to the opinion of someone who took part in the event being described (Randi) than someone who was not even there to see it (you), regardless of the latter's barrister-like ability to parse posts.

I don't agree that that's common sense. I never assume an eyewitness account is all that reliable in the first place. I am certainly assuming in this case that the story was not fabricated, but it could be inaccurate in some ways. (No personal comment on you, Randi; this is just about the nature of the argument.) But my take on it is that we're arguing about the story *as told,*more or less. Then it becomes about interpretation.

I agree that there should be a middle ground and there should be some level of mutual respect in these situations. I think people on both sides should not assume that people are out to get you, but that's easier said than done.

←

Surely if the original account is flawed, subsequent interpretations, based on that flawed account, would be relatively even more flawed. These things compound, rather than resolve themselves, right?

Interpretation is all well and good when we're talking Melville and we don't have old Herman around to ask why the goddam whale was so important. Randi, however, is around and has saved us the trouble of deconstructing the whole incident by interpreting it herself: the chef came out and (verbally) took a couple of cuts at her. Since Randi appears not to have demanded free booze, a public apology, a nine-figure settlement, or profited from this in any way, and since no other witnesses have come forward to contradict her, the court must rule in her favor.

I'm not saying chefs should be chained to their stove regardless of the insults heaped on the seafood by morons. I'm just saying that when theory and reality collide, you've got to give reality the benefit of the doubt.

[Pan]

The Chef bringing out raw food to 'educate' her was simply not useful in addressing the issue.  I would have sat there and said - 'so what!?'.  How was it useful in any way in addressing her commentary?

Here is where I have a problem. While the customer has the right to complain, how come the chef doesnt have the right to address the complaint in any manner..defensive or otherwise.[...]

←

My own point of view is that anyone can do anything they like, within reason (we're not talking rape and murder here!), as long as they are willing to accept the consequences. And I'd follow that up by saying, But is it smart?

[Edit: Looks like others said approximately the same thing first. I really have to read the entire thread before posting. ]

Edited March 17, 2005 by Pan (log)

[stovetop]

For me the main reason why the chef should stay in the kitchen is the front of house is way more suitable to handle this situation, it just makes good management sense, if they leave the kitchen then they are not doing the job they are suppose to do in the kitchen, and I am talking about a small restaurant not a place where a executive chef is present where they are not directly in the line of fire and might be able to handle a situation, when all avenues have been tried, especially if they are the owner, then maybe they could be best sutible, it is about saving face and playing politics, cause the buck stops there( the owner).

steve

[FaustianBargain]

I found this old link in a egulleter's(Episure) forum/website.. It is an interesting read. Defensive? Rude? Stubborn? Other points of view.

I noticed though that most of the chefs featured are women.

Chefs Bite Back

In Some Cases, the Customer Isn't Always Right

[..]

She went on to argue that going to a nice restaurant is like going to a concert. You don't ask the conductor to change the music to suit your liking; ditto for a chef. "I explain to them that they are in my restaurant. And they must have the flounder the way I make it," she wrote.

The reaction was immediate. People wrote in calling her everything from a "spoiled, four-year-old child," to "whiny" and "pretentious."

[...]

Consumer behavior psychologist Monroe Friedman of Eastern Michigan University says the old fast food slogan of "have it your way" seems to have been accepted as a life philosophy by consumers these days. "It's that entitlement mentality that says you should be able to customize anything, from a lowly burger to a five-star meal," he says.

But New York food and restaurant consultant Clark Wolf says chefs "who act like jerks" aren't going to last long, especially in these weak economic times. "You can't promise customers you'll do anything. It can't be done. But if you don't do what the customer wants at all, you'll go out of business," he says.

Edited March 19, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Jeez Louise! You go have a baby, come back, and ka-boom!

I gotta, say, I've had the same opinion of this from the get-go. If you are in service (and I run a preschool, so I know of what I speak), sometimes you take one for the team, business, whatever. Instead of repeating the jillion reasons for this that others have posted, I want to add something to Bruce's points, with which I heartily agree:

If I like your place I will tell 10 people immediately, If I don't I will tell everyone I meet until your out of business or I die. I live in a tourist town and constantly get asked where to eat. I have places that I like and places I'd never go to and those don't get mentioned, not dissed, just not mentioned. I only diss to people I know.  

←

And -- to the point of this thread -- if I point out a problem with a dish and the chef or server says, "Sorry for that. We'll comp it," I will become a regular, return again and again, and tell everyone I know the story and to do the same.

Yeah, I know that there are flaming assholes in life to which one must smile and nod emptily and for whom one does not want to comp a truffled foie gras app, but thats not what this thread is talking about. The $8.95 (or whatever) cost on a return app seems an excellent investment in producing loyal customer happiness to me....

[Tess]

I found this  old link in a egulleter's(Episure) forum/website.. It is an interesting read. Defensive? Rude? Stubborn? Other points of view.

When I saw a similar article around the same time, I said, "Yay!" I really have a lot of respect for a chef who will only prepare menu items a certain way, will not allow substitutions, etc. I don't know if that's good for their bottom line or not, but I can see really good culinary reasons for it.

[Hest88]

If the same thing happened in French Laundry or Daniel or ADNY, nobody would complain. Any dining group would be grinning ear to ear to rub noses with the top chef.

No, having a big chef embarrass me isn't going to make me any happier about the situation. If Brad Pitt grabs my breast he's going to get the same slap as if a co-worker did the same.

[Luckylies]

If the same thing happened in French Laundry or Daniel or ADNY, nobody would complain. Any dining group would be grinning ear to ear to rub noses with the top chef.

No, having a big chef embarrass me isn't going to make me any happier about the situation. If Brad Pitt grabs my breast he's going to get the same slap as if a co-worker did the same.

←

very, very well put.

[Bacchusrogue]

I was in Kingston with my wife and a friend who used to live there. We wandered around and got kind of hungry and stopped in front of a restaurant on princess st. Musing about going in (it was called The Schnitzel House I believe and I do like schnitzel) when my friend stopped me and said "This Kingston, all the food here is shit, theres nothing worth anything here, its all crap" As he said this a man was walking out of the restaurant, heard this and said "Im the owner of this place, ever been here?"

When my friend said no he shot back "Then you dont know, do you?" And proceeded to tear a strip off him while we laughed our heads off.

My rule is that if there is something seriously wrong with my order, I'll complain proactively (glass in my food, asked for no peanuts because of a nut allergy and got nuts, etc) by taking it to my waiter/waitress.

If its merely crappy, I'll never come back and not recommend it. In fact warn against it if its that bad. If someone comes up for the "hows everything?" questions there would just get a its fine from me unless I can point out something helpful (cut down the pepper, ever try using this, instead of that etc) and I would be mortified if the chef came out to argue with me and never ever go back. And in fact I saw this once with another person in a restaurant and I was appalled by it and never went back to that place, and i wasnt even involved.

[Grub]

I found this  old link in a egulleter's(Episure) forum/website.. It is an interesting read. Defensive? Rude? Stubborn? Other points of view.

Wouldn't the result of a stupid customer vs. arrogant chef encounter be a plain Darwinian one? The point of Seinfeld's soup nazi was exactly that his soups were appreciated enough, for people to tolerate his antics. If New York was populated by people who grew up on microwaved Campbell's' soup, maybe he'd be out of business. You can't be a soup nazi unless two criteria are met: you make great soup, AND your customers recognize how good it is.

When someone has a wildly inflated opinion of their abilities, that's obviously arrogant. But what if your abilities actually matched your ego, is that still arrogance? Maybe, but I'd rather call it a lack of grace and social skills -- and possibly a lack of business skills.

I personally wish for all good chefs to be blessed with informed and appreciative customers. If you can stay in business while throwing out those who aren't -- all the more power to you.

[viva]

If the same thing happened in French Laundry or Daniel or ADNY, nobody would complain. Any dining group would be grinning ear to ear to rub noses with the top chef.

No, having a big chef embarrass me isn't going to make me any happier about the situation. If Brad Pitt grabs my breast he's going to get the same slap as if a co-worker did the same.

←

We had not a defensive chef at Daniel, but a defensive sommelier. My father is not a wine schlump like me - he knows his stuff, has a collection of several thousand bottles, buys wine futures, etc. He orders a wine he's been dying to try at Daniel - but when we get it, the cork is soaked all the way through and the wine is brown. Even me, the wine schlump, thinks that it doesn't look right. My dad points this out to the sommelier and asks for a new bottle of the same stuff, figuring that since the cork was soaked through, the wine got bad, but that a new bottle wouldn't necessarily have the same problem. The sommelier tasted the wine, said that it was fine, and refused to bring another bottle of the same wine, and basically insinuated that my dad was some sort of Neanderthal that didn't know good wine from bad. Even if that were true, and the sommelier didn't want to waste another bottle on what he perceived as a wine schlump, couldn't he have just said "oh, that's our last bottle - can I recommend something else?" Instead, he chose to be a snotty asshole.

My poor dad was so embarrassed - it ruined the rest of the meal for us. I don't care how good Daniel is, I'll never go back there.

Edited March 20, 2005 by viva (log)

[FaustianBargain]

what has this got to do with your breasts?

or brad pitt?

it is not about people being 'happy' about being embarssed by a big chef. it is just that we tolerate big names more than the small guy. somehow, we are willing to trust the 'big chef' and give them control of our tastebuds. we are happy to let them take control. this happens everywhere. take the fashion industry/haute coutre as another example. occasionally, the emperor wears no clothes, you know.

if i were to write a book, a la emily post, to instruct chefs on the subject of social graces, what else do you think i should include? other than a strict ban on grabbing your breasts, that is.

If the same thing happened in French Laundry or Daniel or ADNY, nobody would complain. Any dining group would be grinning ear to ear to rub noses with the top chef.

No, having a big chef embarrass me isn't going to make me any happier about the situation. If Brad Pitt grabs my breast he's going to get the same slap as if a co-worker did the same.

←

very, very well put.

←

[Busboy]

I had the opportunity to work for, as a waiter, in two restaurants with talented and dedicated chefs here in DC: Le Pavillon, with Yannik Cam, and Restaurant Nora, with Nora Pouillon (and a great sous, whose name I forget). Both of them were spectacularly more talented than some of the chefs around DC who have a reputation for being prima donnas, both of them would do anything within reason to make a diner happy. When I hear of a chef who refuses to make a modest substitution because it interferes with their "artistic vision," I assume that this is a person who, by definition, has allowed theire ego to eclipse their talent.