Grey Tasting Food

[Adam_Balic]

After reading about Thai curries on The Mamsters excellent site I was inspired to make a Red Curry after several months of not having this dish. For a change I managed to get all the ingredients that I wanted (Fresh paste, Tamarind water, Lemon ginger, kaffir lime leaves, palm sugar, Asian Basil, fresh bamboo shoots, fish sauce, coconut cream). Now I made the curry as normal, but it didn't work. The flavours came out "muddy" (like when you mix together all those colourful paints as a child and end up with a grey-green mess), no matter what corrections I made to the sweet,salt, soar levels or the individual flavour components.

I have noticed this happening with other recipes such as Ragu and stews. Is it possible to use to many flavour components?

[Jinmyo]

I certainly think so.

One question though, Adam. Did you use a mortar or a food processor? I find that a processor can heat up the volatile oils and smush them together so that when the curry heats the pan it's already a bit stale.

[Adam_Balic]

M&P, but I used my Italian one, not my Thai one (back in Australia). It tasted good up to certain point then a small flavour blackhole opened up in my Wok. I'm thinking too much fish sauce? Can oversalting deaden flavour?

Had this problem with a Ragu the other day, almost unedible. It tasted of fatty meat only, even through it had loads of other ingredients. At the eleventh hour I added a few more tomatos and bang, problem solved. Maybe my tastebuds are caput? Acid levels wrong? I dunno, why everything is going to hell at this stage in the game though.

[Jinmyo]

I'm thinking too much fish sauce? Can oversalting deaden flavour?

...

Maybe my tastebuds are caput? Acid levels wrong? I dunno, why everything is going to hell at this stage in the game though.

Mebbe the mam got ngoced about a bit by too heavy a hand. Oversalting will level out flavours instead of lifting them.

Yes, your tastebuds are caput. Tomatoes can work wonders. Everything is going to hell because we're all doomed, doomed, doomed.  :wow:

By the way, do you drink while cooking? A glass of wine or cup of sake can be okay. But a bit of Scotch would definitely throw off your game.

[Adam_Balic]

By the way, do you drink while cooking? A glass of wine or cup of sake can be okay. But a bit of Scotch would definitely throw off your game.

Hmm, can't remember, so I must have been .

[Malawry]

I'm always tempted to throw a bunch of randomness into dishes, but I've learned to resist because of the muddy-flavor effect. The one exception being vegetarian chili. I think the more you throw into chili, the better it's likely to taste. I use bits of dozens of spices and condiments, and sometimes will make chili as a way to get rid of the ends of things. (We eat so many beans that there's always leftover beans waiting around to be used.)

[Jinmyo]

Malawry, as part of your experimenting with meat you could try making a Texas chili. Which requires no beans. I repeat no beans. You can use any meats or combination thereof. But most "Texan" would be beef. Chopping up a chuck roast would be good, or a few chuck steaks. Simmer, simmer, simmer. Skim, skim, skim.

Not to be too preachy but: I think randomness is not the same as creativity. There must be a very clear perception of each spice or herb and every ingredient and their interactions before following through on an idea that comes up while cooking. I will often (almost always) change the course of a meal when something occurs as I'm making one dish. Buit that has to then include adjusting every other dish for the meal as a whole to work. Everything must work and work together.

It must always be perfect. And since it can't be, what is noticed about lacks and gaps :wow:  leads the way to closing that gap.

[tony h]

Had this problem with a Ragu the other day

What were you making it with - beef or lamb?  I find that with lamb you have to drain off the fat before you anything else otherwise its grey food time.  The fat leaves a dank, musty aftertaste which is quite unpleasant.

As for the thai dish - the only think I can think of is that something's gone off - perhaps the oil has spoiled.  Also, too much fish sauce could ruin it.

[Malawry]

Malawry, as part of your experimenting with meat you could try making a Texas chili. Which requires no beans. I repeat no beans.

No beans? NO BEANS in CHILI?

*head explodes*

Seriously, I'd like to try Texas chili sometime, but I'm definitely not anywhere near ready to be cooking with meat. I'm not even eating more than a couple bites of meat here and there. I'll have to wait until somebody I'm dining with orders or makes some to sample a bit. I've always been curious about Texas chili since to me beans are so integral a part of the chili experience. I wanna know how the experience differs from a beef stew or beefy sauce.

And you're totally right about randomness. That's why I have moved away from random cooking. When I started out I was a lot more erratic in many senses, but my greater attention to technique and ingredients has resulted in much better and more consistent food.

[edemuth]

It must always be perfect.  And since it can't be, what is noticed about lacks and gaps leads the way to closing that gap.

 

I like Jinmyo.  

I'll have to wait until somebody I'm dining with orders or makes some to sample a bit. I've always been curious about Texas chili since to me beans are so integral a part of the chili experience. I wanna know how the experience differs from a beef stew or beefy sauce.

Malawry, I will be happy to accompany you to Hard Times and get Texas chili so you can try it.

[mamster]

After reading about Thai curries on The Mamsters excellent site I was inspired to make a Red Curry after several months of not having this dish. For a change I managed to get all the ingredients that I wanted (Fresh paste, Tamarind water, Lemon ginger, kaffir lime leaves, palm sugar, Asian Basil, fresh bamboo shoots, fish sauce, coconut cream). Now I made the curry as normal, but it didn't work. The flavours came out "muddy" (like when you mix together all those colourful paints as a child and end up with a grey-green mess), no matter what corrections I made to the sweet,salt, sour levels or the individual flavour components.

I have noticed this happening with other recipes such as Ragu and stews. Is it possible to use to many flavour components?

I'd better jump in before this thread turns into six pages of chili manifestos.

The times I've had a curry go unsalvageably awry, I overdid it on the sugar.  Sugar tends to mellow and blend the other flavors, and it sounds like your curry ended up too mellow and too blended.  But probably an excess of any of the flavoring ingredients would cause a similar problem.

I've got to run to class, but I'll probably have more to say a bit later.

[mamster]

Okay, another idea.  I've had mixed results with homemade curry paste, which I gather is what you made.  A bland paste can make a bland curry, and it's really hard (for me, at least) to tell how good the paste is until I use it.

But one way to see about your paste quality is to make a country-style curry with it, one without coconut milk or sugar.  Fry some paste in peanut oil, and thin it out with water and/or stock.  Add some tamarind water, fish sauce, and vegetables, and eat it like a soup or over rice.  If it's still not good, you've got a paste problem.  Country-style curries are delicious anyway, so this is worth doing even (especially) if you know your paste is good.

[Adam_Balic]

Had this problem with a Ragu the other day

What were you making it with - beef or lamb?  I find that with lamb you have to drain off the fat before you anything else otherwise its grey food time.  The fat leaves a dank, musty aftertaste which is quite unpleasant.

As for the thai dish - the only think I can think of is that something's gone off - perhaps the oil has spoiled.  Also, too much fish sauce could ruin it.

I use about 2/3 beef and 1/3 pork (my Croatian grandmother has very strong views about people who don't add pork to a mince base), plus some fatty procuitto for flavour, some ground fennel seeds and about one cup of full cream milk. The rest is similar to standard recipes. If my wife isn't looking I sometimes slip in a chicken liver or two, but this is rare as she watches me like a hawk.

Mamster, thank you for the suggestion, which is a brilliant idea (Much better then the instructions on some of the Thai products I have, eg. "Cook until good"!

So if we work on the sweet/sour/salty balance theme what order would you add them and at what stage in the game? Is order/time of addtion important at all?

[Matthew Grant]

Had this problem with a Ragu the other day, almost unedible. It tasted of fatty meat only, even through it had loads of other ingredients. At the eleventh hour I added a few more tomatos and bang, problem solved.

Tomatoes are naturally high in MSG, probably why this solved your flavour problem.

[Adam_Balic]

Good, I like MSG.

[mamster]

Mamster, thank you for the suggestion, which is a brilliant idea (Much better then the instructions on some of the Thai products I have, eg. "Cook until good"!

So if we work on the sweet/sour/salty balance theme what order would you add them and at what stage in the game? Is order/time of addtion important at all?

Once my brother-in-law called me to say he wanted to make some Thai curry but was having trouble following the instructions on the curry paste tub, which were as follows:

"Direction: Red curry paste 50g stir and fry in coconut milk 2 cups (400g).  Put meat 200g add vegetable:  small egg plant.  Taste and season as needed."

"What's your problem?" I asked.

Most curry paste has salt in it to begin with, so I would salt last.  In general the order doesn't matter a whole lot, though.  I usually toss in a bit of palm sugar near the beginning of cooking, and then wait and adjust the rest of the flavors at the end.  I'll add some lime juice or tamarind, a bit of fish sauce, and then more palm sugar if I think it's needed.  Doing this at the end doesn't affect the cooking either way, I don't think, but it gives me a better idea of what needs adjusting, because whatever it is, I just added it.

[tommy]

Tomatoes are naturally high in MSG, probably why this solved your flavour problem.

i found that interesting, so i did some quick research.  if the results in this link are accurate, it seems that lots of stuff might have MSG.

click here for someone's opinion

[Jinmyo]

Adam, I like MSG too!

Mmmumami!

[Adam_Balic]

Tomatoes are naturally high in MSG, probably why this solved your flavour problem.

i found that interesting, so i did some quick research.  if the results in this link are accurate, it seems that lots of stuff might have MSG.

click here for someone's opinion

MSG is only a slightly modified amino acid,  so no big surprise that it is in other foods other then Chinese take out. It gives me a headache only if used in the extreme range.

Mamster - Salt is a flavour enhancer yes, so if you adjust the sweet/sour balance then add salt later you could alter this balance for the better or worse yes?