Latkes - the Topic!

[Jaymes]

I have a serious question for you all.

As you know, I live in the Southwest, and have Jewish friends. Several of them celebrate Hanukkah with empanadas.

I asked, "Is that traditional?"

And was told that because empanadas are fried in oil, they "count."

I cannot imagine that the ancient Jews were frying up empanadas. So would those of you who are upset about the cookies in the shape of dreidels have a hard time with this as well??

Edited December 9, 2002 by Jaymes (log)

[cakewalk]

I have a serious question for you all.

As you know, I live in the Southwest, and have Jewish friends.  Several of them celebrate Hanukkah with empanadas.

I asked, "Is that traditional?"

And was told that because empanadas are fried in oil, they "count."

I cannot imagine that the ancient Jews were frying up empanadas.  So would those of you who are upset about the cookies in the shape of dreidles have a hard time with this as well??

But what are those empanadas stuffed with?!

[Jaymes]

I have a serious question for you all.

As you know, I live in the Southwest, and have Jewish friends.  Several of them celebrate Hanukkah with empanadas.

I asked, "Is that traditional?"

And was told that because empanadas are fried in oil, they "count."

I cannot imagine that the ancient Jews were frying up empanadas.  So would those of you who are upset about the cookies in the shape of dreidles have a hard time with this as well??

But what are those empanadas stuffed with?!

Well, not pork.

Actually, I was told, but forgot... beef I believe. And there couldn't be any milk or cream or dairy products in the empanada dough I think.

I did ask that and was told, but can't remember exactly.

But even so, I can't imagine that empanadas are "traditional." So, if empanadas can be made kosher and in a manner to use for celebrating Hanukkah, I'd think cookies might.

Edit: Perhaps I should add that I don't want to start an argument, but am curious. My curiosity had been answered, but now with the cookie thing, find those questions rising again.

Edited December 4, 2003 by Jason Perlow (log)

[cakewalk]

A lot of Jewish culinary traditions are geographically based. Latkes are an eastern European tradition. Sufganiyot (jelly donuts) are a North African/Sephardi tradition. The connection to Hanukkah, as you noted, Jaymes, is that they're both fried in oil. Oil is a biggie at Hanukkah. (Although I'm damned if I know where that story of the cruet of oil lasting eight days instead of one day came from. Honestly. Does anyone know the origin of that story?)

And so empanadas. Well, I'm not sure about them being a "tradition." I mean, how far back are we going here? But you won't hear anything from me against starting a new tradition. The American south west celebrates Hanukkah! Have an empanada! Actually, I like the idea.

It's not at all the same as the Christmas cookie issue, IMO. The business about the cookies is that they have become intimately associated with Christmas, so why morph them onto Hanukkah? But empanadas, as far as I know, aren't connected to any holiday (are they?). They're just a food connected to a particular region. Go for it, says I.

[Jaymes]

The American south west celebrates Hanukkah! Have an empanada! Actually, I like the idea.

But empanadas, as far as I know, aren't connected to any holiday (are they?).

Well, I hate to throw in a wrench, but I believe that they are traditionally made in Mexico and other Latin American countries to celebrate... well....

Christmas.

[cakewalk]

The American south west celebrates Hanukkah! Have an empanada! Actually, I like the idea.

But empanadas, as far as I know, aren't connected to any holiday (are they?).

Well, I hate to throw in a wrench, but I believe that they are traditionally made in Mexico and other Latin American countries to celebrate... well....

Christmas.

Oy vey. Vy did you tell me dis?

Well, I guess it all comes down to individual choice then. In truth, Christmas cookies dressed up as dreidels don't really bother me, so I don't see why I should let empanadas get in the way. Although others will disagree.

Have you ever made empanadas?

[Jaymes]

Yes. I've made them with beef, pork, picadillo, and sweet ones with mincemeat.

Actually, I think the thing is that as far as being a Hispanic/Latin Christmas treat - and ditto with cookies for that matter - when you are celebrating whatever it is you celebrate - you want to do that with something that seems delicious and festive. So, you pick whatever your culture prepares in the kitchen that fills that bill.

I strongly doubt that anything about empanadas (or cookies for that matter) at Christmastime stems from a religious source or has any particular religious meaning. I think it's more that they taste good. And people have company coming over and want to offer them a treat, and cookies are a handy thing and good to have with drink. People also offer fudge and fruitcake and other things that have, I'm sure, no religious significance whatsoever.

And so then, some creative Martha-Stewart-type thought - "I know - let's make these cookies in the shape of balls and bells and Christmas trees." Voila, a holiday tradition was born. I mean they're not "Christmas cookies," they're sugar cookies cut out and decorated into little holiday shapes. They're not blessed by the pope or something like communion wafers.

I'm sure it's the same thing with the empanadas. When I've lived and visited in Central American countries, you often see various types and sizes of empanadas on Christmas holiday tables. But I think it's just because empanadas, especially sweet ones made with mincemeat, taste good. And when one is celebrating, and company is on the way, one looks around the kitchen and tries to make something good.

But I don't know...

I was just curious about the empanadas thing, and then when I saw this thread, wanted to ask.

I'd hate for y'all to be upset with my dear girlfriend and her Hanukkah empanadas.

Edited December 4, 2003 by Jason Perlow (log)

[Suvir Saran]

Maybe we can have another thread on Empanadas? Please... I too would love to learn more about them. Jaymes will you start one for us Yankees?

And going back to Latkes, they cannot be a food of the Ancient Jews for potatoes were not known in Europe or Asia till the discovery of the Americas. And that is a relatively recent happening. In terms of ancient cultures and religions. It is fascinating to note though that across religions and cultures and societies all over, potatoes have become a favorite and very few even realize they were introduced to most of the world very recently. But people, around the world always tell me in my travels how potatoes are a part of their countries cuisine and that their families have been eating them for generations. And then I tell them the shocking truth.

All food is sacred.. and all customs are sacred and relevant. But what makes customs and rituals sacred is not what they become today, but what their lore is and what moral we are to take from them. People seem to worry too much about the ritual and little if at all about the moral of the story that comes with each religious holiday.

But back to Latkes, I am still hungry for more of Fat Guys Latkes. They were DELICIOUS. And the table set by Ellen and FG was most beautiful. I wish more Christmas tables could learn from Ellen and Fat Guy. For if I am too believe that they were copying Christmas drama, they made it look surprisingly good. My favorite Christmas time memories go back to Nagpur, a small city in India that was once it's capital. At the young age of 6 I went for my first midnight mass. It was amazing. Also I saw a chicken get butchered the morning of Christmas in my best friends bedroom. The parents would buy a live chicken and then kill it in their home the day of Christmas. I also learned how to make nougat as a 6 year old from Aunt Julie (no blood relative, but addressed as such for my parents considered them family). Andrea and Darren her kids were my best friends. When I go to parties in NYC, I look at them as flashy display of capitalism at its best. And such is the case around the world today. Not just the US or NYC... everywhere. Darren, Christmas and Id are all being celebrated with much drama and garish display of wealth and chatchkas (sp?)... but little if any substance.

Fat Guy and Ellen had a simple but very special dinner. Humble yet bold. Humble because it had their own unique style and signature. Bold for they did not have to worry about keeping up with the Joneses. And of course the Latkes were incredible. And what was even more special was that they had a Hindu and Christian sharing in their simple Latke ritual (not sure either one of them is too observant). And what was most memorable for me was the chant that was beautifully sung (apologies to all if I have used a poor word). It was foreign to me as can be and yet had some moving quality. I felt I was standing aside family in India, before eating a similar meat on a special holiday.

And I would be a liar if I did not thank them both for serving those cookies. They were nothing exceptional, but you know, I took 4 of them. Maybe I was the only one that had any, and I was happy I took them... I could have eaten more. And as I ate them, the last thing on my mind was Christmas... Certainly we all were aware of the satire that was involved. Maybe that made them and the evening even more memorable and special. And also gave me a window into another religions beauty and tradition. And also warmth in my heart for it's people and also shared with me the similarities between us all. Here were were, 4 people, representing 3 religions and we were free of any drama. We enjoyed ourselves thoroughly.

[Suvir Saran]

And I realize that Chanukah is not a holiday that may have been observed by the ancient Jews. So the potato connection does not have to be relevant to the ancient Jews.

I made the reference above to potatoes and ancient Jews only to share the fact that potatoes are a new world discovery. Just like chiles and tomatoes.

But they have all become quite deeply popular in all cultures that have seen them find a place in their kitchens. It is easy to see why.

[Suvir Saran]

Yes.  I've made them with beef, pork, picadillo, and sweet ones with mincemeat.

Actually, I think the thing is that as far as being a Hispanic/Latin Christmas treat - and ditto with cookies for that matter - when you are celebrating whatever it is you celebrate - you want to do that with something that seems delicious and festive.  So, you pick whatever your culture prepares in the kitchen that fills that bill.

I strongly doubt that anything about empanadas (or cookies for that matter) at Christmastime stems from a religious source or has any particular religious meaning.  I think it's more that they taste good.  And people have company coming over and want to offer them a treat, and cookies are a handy thing and good to have with drink.  People also offer fudge and fruitcake and other things that have, I'm sure, no religious significance whatsoever.

And so then, some creative Martha-Stewart-type thought - "I know - let's make these cookies in the shape of balls and bells and Christmas trees."  Voila, a holiday tradition was born.  I mean they're not "Christmas cookies," they're sugar cookies cut out and decorated into little holiday shapes.  They're not blessed by the pope or something like communion wafers.

I'm sure it's the same thing with the empanadas.  When I've lived and visited in Central American countries, you often see various types and sizes of empanadas on Christmas holiday tables.  But I think it's just because empanadas, especially sweet ones made with mincemeat, taste good.  And when one is celebrating, and company is on the way, one looks around the kitchen and tries to make something good.

But I don't know...

I was just curious about the empanadas thing, and then when I saw this thread, wanted to ask.

I'd hate for y'all to be upset with my dear girlfriend and her Hanukkah empanadas.

Jaymes,

You may not be surprised to know that an ancient incredible edible made during religious ceremonies are a empanad like goodie called Gujia. They have the same crescent shape. They are filled with sweet mostly and also savory fillings.

And the reason they have been popular since ancient times are exactly what you mention.

So, in all cultures, I think the idea of having foods such as these were common. Deep fried makes great sense for in old times, deep fried foods had a longer shelf life. There is little if any reason to not understand then why that stuff was so popular. Same is true for cookies. Even in India, while we have a million indigenous sweets... cookies find a place of pride in Diwali Holiday Baskets. They keep well, look beautiful and TASTE DELICIOUS. How can you go wrong.

[JFLinLA]

Following the chuckles from Rabbi Ribeye's Schmaltz story, I thought I'd start a thread on the trials and foibles of latkes and other Hanukkah preparations.

My "annual tradition" is to fry up a pile of latkes once. I almost never, ever fry in oil during the year and it's just easier to make and clean up the mess once. Generally, it's an afternoon of work based on one food processor, two frying pans and 15+ pounds of potatoes. I make 'em the way grandma taught me and grandma was appreciative of modern changes and conveniences. So she learned to love the food processor over doing it all by hand and to appreciate my technique for keeping the large batch white, freezing the final product and reheating so they stay crispy.

I also generally do the big family Hanukkah party which is traditionally a brunch of "latkes and lox" and more. It takes till Purim to clear your arteries but yum, yum.

What are you doing?

[tryska]

i don't think i've ever had a latke (which is surprising to me actually). does it taste similar to a hashbrown?

[Jason Perlow]

i don't think i've ever had a latke (which is surprising to me actually). does it taste similar to a hashbrown?

Imagine hashbrown, flavored with pure chicken fat and onions.

[JFLinLA]

i don't think i've ever had a latke (which is surprising to me actually).  does it taste similar to a hashbrown?

Imagine hashbrown, flavored with pure chicken fat and onions.

and salt, don't forget the salt.

[Jason Perlow]

i don't think i've ever had a latke (which is surprising to me actually).  does it taste similar to a hashbrown?

Imagine hashbrown, flavored with pure chicken fat and onions.

and salt, don't forget the salt.

Latkes are denser than hashbrowns too.

edit: Latke Threads merged. Note that is one of the earliest threads on the site, so some of the links are screwed up and some posts may seem out of context. But lots of good stuff nevertheless.

[JFLinLA]

And speaking of schmaltz . . . or schmaltzy:

One of my favorite latke memories had to have been several years ago. It was the last Hanukkah my grandmother was still with us. She was healthy enough to make the latkes and it was the first Hanukkah my daughter was old enough to help out (yes, I shooed her out of the kitchen once the oil got hot). Together with myself, my mom, my grandmother and my daughter we had four generations of women in the family making latkes. (Where is the smilie with the tear welling up?)

Too bad nobody took a picture.

This year, I think my daughter is old enough to hang out for the actual frying part.

(cue the music, "Sunrise, sunset. Sunrise, sunset.")

[bloviatrix]

Beware: Chanukah starts in 17 days.

Normally, I use canola oil for frying, but this year I might use duck fat. Poor Blovie, I think he's convinced I'm trying to give him a coronary.

My favorite Chanukah memory was walking through the streets of the Old City in Jerusalem. I had attended the menorah lighting at the Western Wall which is pretty amazing to experience, and walked back through the narrow streets. People had their lighted menorahs in the windows, and wafting through the narrow alleys was the smell of frying latkes. I wanted to knock on doors and invite myself in for dinner.

[Jason Perlow]

We have a nice big quart container of schmaltz in the fridge, ready to go. I'm thinking we should start Chanukah a week or so early because I'm starting to get cravings.

[Kenk]

For some reason I don't like the traditional style of latkes. But I think I will start trying modified latke versions like a rosti made with Gruyere cheese.

I think you should scrap using canola oil and move to using olive oil for taste, health and of course even more historically reaffirming.

[Jason Perlow]

Canola? Who said we were gonna use canola? SCHMALTZ baby, Schmaltz.

Olive Oil for Latkes? I dunno, but that just doesn't seem right.

[bloviatrix]

Jason, I agree with you, but technically, olive oil is the more appropriate fat. Afterall, it was a vial of olive oil that was found in the Temple, and used to light the menorah.

[tryska]

i don't think i've ever had a latke (which is surprising to me actually).  does it taste similar to a hashbrown?

Imagine hashbrown, flavored with pure chicken fat and onions.

i don't think i've tasted anything flavored with chickenfat. (lipton noodle soup maybe)

in any case, i'm going to have to find some jewish friends here in Atlanta.

[Jason Perlow]

Jason, I agree with you, but technically, olive oil is the more appropriate fat. Afterall, it was a vial of olive oil that was found in the Temple, and used to light the menorah.

I'm trying to figure out how olive oil could "ignite" in the first place.

[bloviatrix]

Jason, I agree with you, but technically, olive oil is the more appropriate fat.  Afterall, it was a vial of olive oil that was found in the Temple, and used to light the menorah.

I'm trying to figure out how olive oil could "ignite" in the first place.

We actually use olive oil instead of candles when lighting our menorah. It works fine as fuel, provided you have wicks (which can be bought at any Judaica store).

[Jason Perlow]

Jason, I agree with you, but technically, olive oil is the more appropriate fat.  Afterall, it was a vial of olive oil that was found in the Temple, and used to light the menorah.

I'm trying to figure out how olive oil could "ignite" in the first place.

We actually use olive oil instead of candles when lighting our menorah. It works fine as fuel, provided you have wicks (which can be bought at any Judaica store).

Yeah, but did they even have wicks back then? I mean presumably, they had oil lamps and such, but olive oil just doesnt seem combustible enough for that kind of lamp and they didnt have the purification processes like we have today. I know different kinds of animal fats and other compounds were used for lamps in the roman and greek times.

What are oil menorah wicks made of?