Releasing baked goods from their pans

[Wendy DeBord]

For anyone who hasn't read the springform pan thread, I'm starting this topic as an off shoot from it.

I have to start this thread mentioning my own personal experience.

When I began working as a professional pastry chef (even though I knew how to bake) I really had issues following alot of recipes as written making them work in my situation. For example, if you followed the exotic orange cake thread you quickly realize that getting all those components made and ready at the right stage of setting is a huge accomplishment. I had to figure out how to make that type of recipe work for me when I couldn't make all the components at once, when the author didn't give me any shortcuts.

I'd make a nice spongecake covered in whipped cream and fresh fruit.........then I was faced with the delemia of having to pre-slice all my cakes for buffet service. At first I thought those delicate items just can't be done for buffets. But eventually I figured out I didn't have to make that item exactly as the author dirrected me.

My party sheet called for souffles for 50 people, and there wasn't one souffle dish in the building. What was I supposed to do?

For a baker serving items at home it's ok if your slices aren't perfect. But when your a pastry chef and people are paying the same amount of money for each slice it's not fair to give some people a huge slice and some a skimpy one. And besides value you have presentation as a huge issue that pc's must rise to.

So what happens is professional pastry chefs have to figure out how to make items on their own terms. Even our professional baking books don't cover tricks and methods for doing many tasks. Thats why it's so invaluable to work with a more experienced chef to learn all their little tricks. I never worked for a pc more experinced them myself. So finding cooking sites online where I can learn from other bakers has been an priceless experience/education for me. I think that's why many professional pastry chefs go online to share and learn for others where their books leave off.

So in my long winded way I want all of you to know that you don't have to be a professional chef to work and think like one. There comes a time as everyone becomes more knowledgable/experienced that they can and should learn ways to simplify recipes and make them work for you. Recipes are tools and not rules.

[Wendy DeBord]

Heres some dialog from the springform pan thread:

I have tried getting a peach charlotte out of a regular cake pan when a helper assembled it in one by mistake.  Not a pretty sight. 

I use them for desserts that have ladyfingers or decorative elements around the sides that stay in place when the springform is eased away from the sides. 

Some things just are easier to do with a springform and I like having the option of using them.

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For things in which the top crust can crack easily, such as Brownies and butter tart squares, the square springform pans can't be beat.  And with the La Forme pans I can cut them right on the pan botoom

I will never use a regular pan for those items ever again.

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I'd be happy to walk you thru how you bake any item in a regular cake pan, if you like.

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Yes, please! I've just started producing cakes and the like for a couple of local restaurants, and I've got one tea cake (soaked in buttermilk and unbelievably moist and dense) that I wouldn't know how to get out of anything but a springform. I've been eyeing my aluminum pizza peel as a thing to resort to, but I'm afraid I'd end up smushing the whole cake beyond repair.

I'd be beholden, that's sure.

Devlin

edit: I meant to say I'm eyeing my pizza peel as a thing to get this unbelievably wet cake off the bottom of the springform because even with the parchment paper I've been afraid to try to get it off, it's so dense and moist and heavy. Any help and encouragement would be a big help. As it stands now, I'm afraid to try.

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[Wendy DeBord]

I'll add how I handle the items listed and I hope everyone else will chime in with their tips.

Quickly I have to mention cake rings. Those bottomless stainless steel circles that puzzle new bakers. Those silly things serve a purpose, their most often used to assemble multi-layered desserts in. Although they are used to bake in (more by Europeans then Americans), they are only used for stiff batters that won't leak out of a bottomless ring.

A cake pan is really the same thing as cake ring, with a bottom. So I use cake pans as cake rings.

A cake pan is the same thing as a springform pan except the sides don't release on their own. You have to take the item out of the pan instead of taking the pan away from the item.

A cake pan is the same whether it's round or square, it still holds in contents.

A cake pan is basicly the same thing as a tart pan, but it's sides are taller.

A cake pan is basicly the same thing as a pie pan, but it's sides are taller.

Etc......

Hopefully your beginning to see a pattern here.

Cakes, brownies, tortes, all baked goods have different textures. Some are more fragile then others. For the sake of speed and ease many professional bakers temporarily turn their baked goods into a texture that's less fragile more managable and versatile for them to handle. Theres only a couple ways to change the texture- either baking an item or freezing an item. Well once you've baked your item the only other solution is to freeze it to change it's texture. Freezing baked goods is putting it into a temporary texture or state. You can freeze something to shock it into a quick cool, freeze something for a couple hours or freeze something for many days. Freezing rarely harms baked goods. But for some reason many people think that a frozen baked good is no longer a fresh baked good and it's inferior. Thats a very wrong widely held thought.

A freezer is a very important tool for a pastry chef. Savory chefs typically use a freezer to store products to keep them fresh. Pastry chefs do that too, but they also use freezers as a tool that savory chefs don't typically. We freeze components all the time. Sometimes we freeze an item to make it easier to cut (as is the point of this thread) but sometimes we use the freezer to change the texture of an item so we can handle it. Example, layering a multi layered full sized sheet cake. If I freeze my layers when I place one on top of another I can handle that cake less gently with less chance of it breaking it...because the cake is less fragile when frozen.

If I need to cut a fragile item it's easier to cut in a semi-frozen state then fresh. The item is less likely to condense downward as I exert force/pressure on it while cutting. It's also easier to move/lift a frozen item from one surface to another.

So the answer to removing fragile items from pans is changing it's texture by semi freezing it or totally freezing it. Cutting a semi-frozen item is also one "trick" used by professionals to achieve clean perfect slices.

Ok speaking to the items specifily mentioned. I would remove my charlotte even if I assembled it in a springform pan, by freezing it, then heating the sides of my pan to release. When frozen I can easily pick-up the whole cake and place it on a cardboard circle. Place it in my cooler to let it defrost to a semi-frozen state then slice it perfectly.

Brownies: I always chill completely in the cooler or freeze before I dream of cutting them or moving them. I heat the pan, place a cardboard or another larger pan ontop of it, invert the pan to release my brownie. Re-invert my brownie so the top side is facing upward, then cut. When it comes time to slice my brownie or cookie bar having it out of the pan makes slicing much quicker and cleaner. I use a long knive and slice the whole width and whole length on each slice. Cutting items in the pan also ruins your pans in time....especially expensive non-stick coated pans.

Soaking a cake then removing it from a pan is difficult due to how fragile and heavy the moisture makes it. When I soak a cake I first remove it from the pan it's been baked in. Depending upon how fragile that cake is, I might release it with-out freezing it (like with a flexible sponge cake) or I might freeze it with a more breakable item like a butter cake. Then I go about soaking it. If you place that cake on your final surface, cardboard covered in wax paper or serving dish before you soak it you won't have to figure out how to move that fragile item. Depending upon what your soaking, you may want to pick up the whole item and sub-merge it (as in a baba). You will want to set your larger cakes (on your wax covered cardboard) into a larger lipped pan so your liquid can drain off. In cases where I've accidently poured on too much soaking liquid, not having the item trapped in a sided baking pan has saved the product.

[devlin]

Soaking a cake then removing it from a pan is difficult due to how fragile and heavy the moisture makes it. When I soak a cake I first remove it from the pan it's been baked in. Depending upon how fragile that cake is, I might release it with-out freezing it (like with a flexible sponge cake) or I might freeze it with a more breakable item like a butter cake. Then I go about soaking it. If you place that cake on your final surface, cardboard covered in wax paper or serving dish before you soak it you won't have to figure out how to move that fragile item. Depending upon what your soaking, you may want to pick up the whole item and sub-merge it (as in a baba). You will want to set your larger cakes (on your wax covered cardboard) into a larger lipped pan so your liquid can drain off. In cases where I've accidently poured on too much soaking liquid, not having the item trapped in a sided baking pan has saved the product.

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And of course that makes such good sense it makes feel stupid . Just had one of those "duh" moments. I've gone through Friberg's book and couldn't find any help there, nor in any other book I've got on hand, so this is tremendously helpful.

Thank you Sinclair.

[andiesenji]

Y??Y®?Y?(Yù@(Y+?^how I handle the items listed and I hope everyone else will chime in with their tips.

Ok speaking to the items specifily mentioned. I would remove my charlotte even if I assembled it in a springform pan, by freezing it, then heating the sides of my pan to release. When frozen I can easily pick-up the whole cake and place it on a cardboard circle. Place it in my cooler to let it defrost to a semi-frozen state then slice it perfectly.

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[SteveCleve]

This is great and very helpful. Do you mind addressing specifically the different options for heating the sides of various kinds of pans to aid in removal? Thank you very much.

[jackal10]

Blowtorch

[McDuff]

I made the mistake of adding several new cakes to our product mix at work, all charlottes with a chocolate or fruit mousse filling made with mycryo. I've been freaking out with the ladyfinger flopping over, so the tip about the meringue powder glue is a good one. I line a cake pan with acetate, drop a parchment round in the bottom and start building. But I wanted to speed up the process so I just made the cakes by piping the mousse onto each round and stacking them, then running a skim coat of mousse around the outside, stuck on the ladyfingers, wrapped it in acetate and then put a gay ribbon around it. Much faster and less frustrating. When I build them in the cake pans, I freeze them, invert onto a gold cake board and then pipe the whipped cream. They pop right out because of the acetate. Yesterday's were pear mousse and gingerbread.

[JSkilling]

So can I veer off topic but ask for how to help??

I need to make 8 zillion phyllo dough mini tartlets. I think I'll need 5 or six layers of phyllo so my thought is to layer the sheets, spray and sugar each and then use a small fluted circle cutter to go all the way through the layers, leaving me with a stack to put in each of the mini muffin tins.

But my first problem is the cutter I have is a cute scalloped edge but doesn't seem to be sharp enough. Is there some brand I can look at that will give me a cleaner cut? Or is there a better method that will reduce my time each week as I do these? Whatever I make I'll just freeze and use as needed.

Second issue is what to bake them in. Rigid mini muffin tins or flexible pans like these http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=1478

Thanks!

Josette

[RB2]

This is great and very helpful.  Do you mind addressing specifically the different options for heating the sides of various kinds of pans to aid in removal?  Thank you very much.

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Hairdryer

[andiesenji]

I use these on phyllo dough cutters from King Arthur Flour.

I also have the nylon ones.

I have a different one with no handle and a rolled top edge on which I can tap with a mallet for cutting many layers but I don't remember where I got it. It is quite tall.

I found them. I got them from Fantes

the linzer cookie cutter.

[McDuff]

So can I veer off topic but ask for how to help??

I need to make 8 zillion phyllo dough mini tartlets.

Josette

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You want to be shopping for nougat cutters. Cheap flimsy cutters will crumple if you have to do this a lot. Nougat cutters are expensive, but will last your lifetime.

[chromedome]

I would say that 5-6 layers is probably superfluous. At my night job we make 4" tarts using only three layers, and they're certainly sturdy enough to handle and plate. Mind you, the fillings are not liquid, so your mileage may vary.

As for cutting we use an xacto knife, and the bottom of a particular-sized can is our guide. It's not elegant, but it's effective and pretty fast, since you can cut through half-a-box of phyllo in one stack.

[JSkilling]

I would say that 5-6 layers is probably superfluous.  At my night job we make 4" tarts using only three layers, and they're certainly sturdy enough to handle and plate.  Mind you, the fillings are not liquid, so your mileage may vary.

As for cutting we use an xacto knife, and the bottom of a particular-sized can is our guide.  It's not elegant, but it's effective and pretty fast, since you can cut through half-a-box of phyllo in one stack.

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I had four layers with an apple pie filling and they weren't quite sturdy enough so that's why I'm going to boost them up a bit - but probably just another layer. I guess I'll need a little room for the filling!

A can is a great idea. I used the bottom of a larger tart pan and just cut around it before and found it worked fine with the knife but I figured a straight cutter that I could just work by rote would be easier. I'll try both!

[Wendy DeBord]

But I wanted to speed up the process so I just made the cakes by piping the mousse onto each round and stacking them, then running a skim coat of mousse around the outside, stuck on the ladyfingers, wrapped it in acetate and then put a gay ribbon around it. Much faster and less frustrating. When I build them in the cake pans, I freeze them, invert onto a gold cake board and then pipe the whipped cream. They pop right out because of the acetate.

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Exactly. Don't let your pan or recipe dictate to you. Change things around so they work for you.

In the specific charlotte example andiesenji you mentioned you wound up ruining part of the cake. I still would have frozen the charlotte to remove it from the pan. A solidly frozen cake with piped on whip cream rosettes can be inverted with little to no damage, I do it all the time............hard to believe but true. If for some reason your rosettes got smashed you can scrap them off your frozen cake in seconds and re-pipe fresh ones.

Another example...........just a couple weeks ago I had a couple pie shell disasters. I was baking pecan pies and I filled them too high, so the filling bubbled up over the crusts edge between it and the pie plate and it was permanently clued into the pie plate. Well I needed those pies and had to plate them too. I froze the pies as is. Then using a stove top burner I gently moved the pie plate over the heat. The sticky caramel melted while my pie remained frozen and I was able to pop it out of the pan cleanly, then slice it. Unless you viewed the bottom of the pie you wouldn't have known what a nightmare it was. I hadn't previously thought of that use for a pecan pie. I used to force a knive in between the crust and pie plate and force out pieces, which always looked bad. Just as McDuff did, it's when your really forced to find a solution, that you do.

For a heat source to remove frozen items............I've used everything from a hot water bath (because I didn't have any heat other then water), stove top, portable stove, hot oven, to a torch. I prefer using a torch. If my item is small enough I place it on my metal turn table and move the item around as I heat it. I like how fast and dirrect you can be with the heat. In seconds your item is cleanly released.

McDuffs mention of using acetate to line his pans is equally as good of a technique. I used to always use acetate to line my pan sides while I assembled torte in the pan until I worked someplace that didn't own any and I discovered you don't need it. BUT in McDuffs case it's saves a step because he'd be placing a acetate collar around his torte anyway.

You also can use cardboard cake circles in place of your metal bottoms in springform pans. They tend to be a hair too large, but you can trim them in seconds with a sissors. Pop the springform sides around your cardboard base and you have one less step in the end.

I used to line pans with foil to remove cookie bars and such. But the nice thing is that when you apply heat to a frozen item in a pan the butter or fat that's cold melts and releases your items with-out ever needing foil. In my pie example it melted the caramel. Sometimes less is more and we are wasting steps and product.

As for the phyllo project mentioned: I use no more then 4 layers in a mini pastry item. More then that shouldn't be necessary or desirable taste wise. I cut my phyllo with a knive, into squares to line a round muffin tin. I don't find the little corners objectional at all. And the time saved it huge..........not to mention how badly your palm is going to hurt using the cookie cutter over and over. It really does depend on what exactly your making. You can also bring up your square edges into a purse shape, which looks nice. If I'm using phyllo in a mini muffin pan to be a container that I'll fill after I bake off the phyllo.......I cut it into squares and then fan out my edges. That limits me to filling every other muffin cavity but it does look nice on the finished product. For phyllo I think using a melt tin/muffin pan will be a cheaper and more practical pan then the silacone pans. I haven't baked phyllo in a silicone pan yet so I don't know if it will crisp up as evenly as it does in metal. Plus since phyllo can crack making wholes for your filling to leak out of..........I think using a flexible pan could be a pain.......depending upon just how thin and flexible your pan is.

[JSkilling]

As for the phyllo project mentioned: I use no more then 4 layers in a mini pastry item. More then that shouldn't be necessary or desirable taste wise. I cut my phyllo with a knive, into squares to line a round muffin tin. I don't find the little corners objectional at all. And the time saved it huge..........not to mention how badly your palm is going to hurt using the cookie cutter over and over. It really does depend on what exactly your making. You can also bring up your square edges into a purse shape, which looks nice. If I'm using phyllo in a mini muffin pan to be a container that I'll fill after I bake off the phyllo.......I cut it into squares and then fan out my edges. That limits me to filling every other muffin cavity but it does look nice on the finished product.  For phyllo I think using a melt tin/muffin pan will be a cheaper and more practical pan then the silacone pans. I haven't baked phyllo in a silicone pan yet so I don't know if it will crisp up as evenly as it does in metal. Plus since phyllo can crack making wholes for your filling to leak out of..........I think using a flexible pan could be a pain.......depending upon just how thin and flexible your pan is.

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Thanks! I do offset the square layers in the muffin size tins both for the nice effect and for the ease of the square use. But I found in the minis that the shape was less finished so I was going with the round. Thanks for the experience on the 4 layers as best, which is what I've thought for my other fillings but just not for the apple pie with caramel in it. I'm afraid that one without a little more weight will just break in two when someone picks it up. But I'm going to try it again with the 4 layers, in a tight round shape really packed into the tin. I'd hate to have to make some with 4 layers, some with more, figure out which is which, use the right one every time. Yeah, like that will happen...

I did find a nougat cutter. Not cheap...

You are the best!

[devlin]

You also can use cardboard cake circles in place of your metal bottoms in springform pans. They tend to be a hair too large, but you can trim them in seconds with a sissors. Pop the springform sides around your cardboard base and you have one less step in the end.

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The next question. Does anybody have a resource they might share for cake circles? I've found some web sites that sell them in small packs of 10 or 12, but they seem to be pretty pricey for a thing you'll use once. Other web sites appear to sell only by the case or skid.

Any suggestions for better places to purchase these? Or do I give up and make them myself? And what would I use to make them?

[Malawry]

I buy cake circles at a local restaurant/catering supply store. They sell them in packs of seven for about $1.20. I am not a pastry chef, and I don't bake enough cakes to justify buying cases so these work great. You can buy Wilton cake circles at Michael's but they will cost more than this--I think it's worth hunting out a supply store for these sorts of items if they exist in your area.

Of course, my supply store is going out of business, so I will soon have to find a new resource myself. Sigh.

[boulak]

Many bakeries are willing to sell small amounts of cake circles, boxes, etc. to members of the community. They buy them by the 100's. When I owned a bakery, I was glad to help in such a way. We fielded calls like this all the time and realized that it was an easy way to build relationships and create friends of the bakery. We even sold starter, buttercream, etc. We never viewed it as cannabilizing sales, but more of a good neighbor policy. It's usually just a matter of speaking with the right person.

[devlin]

Great ideas. Thanks. I'm going to have to do some exploring.

But first, I'm off to shower and get out to perform an important civic duty. Have a wonderful day, folks.

[CanadianBakin']

Wendy, thanks so much for starting this thread. First, in regards to this quote:

Freezing rarely harms baked goods. But for some reason many people think that a frozen baked good is no longer a fresh baked good and it's inferior. Thats a very wrong widely held thought.

Is it ok to call items that have been previously frozen "fresh baked" if they were baked in the store and frozen a week earlier?

Second, my question is in regards to getting squares out of an 18x13 pan. Brownies, no big deal unless they have a rocky road or icing topping. I guess the freezing would work but my nanaimo bars are topped with a chocolate/butter combination that is shiny and shows fingerprints. If I flipped this out frozen would it show marks where it touched the board? Is there a way to repair that or would it be minimal enough to not worry about? I make a coconut square with a shortbread base that I drizzle with white and semi-sweet chocolate while it is still warm. I'm worried that if I froze it and turned it out the chocolate would all crack and fall off. Is there a better way? At home in smaller pans I use a parchment sling but I think in the larger pan the squares might fold in half, again, unless it was frozen. It seems like a sling would waste a lot of parchment as I would have to use 2 sheets each time.

And that brings me to parchment. My suppliers sell it slightly smaller than 18x26 and slightly larger. He says the larger size is more popular. At home, for cookies I always make sure my parchment is slightly smaller otherwise they curl up a bit if they're near the edge of the pan. I can see the slightly larger size working for squares but I don't have room to stock both. What's been your experience?

andiesenji - I love your idea with the radial pattern cutting mat. I don't need one for rounds but I think I'll pick-up a plastic mat that quilters use for cutting squares and I can use that for cutting brownies etc. to the right size. I was wondering how I was going to get them even every time.

Edited November 2, 2004 by CanadianBakin' (log)

[nightscotsman]

Second, my question is in regards to getting squares out of an 18x13 pan. Brownies, no big deal unless they have a rocky road or icing topping. I guess the freezing would work but my nanaimo bars are topped with a chocolate/butter combination that is shiny and shows fingerprints. If I flipped this out frozen would it show marks where it touched the board? Is there a way to repair that or would it be minimal enough to not worry about?

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For one of our restaurants we do a brownie that has a very fragile flourless chocolate cake baked on top (baked in full sheets with pan extenders so they're about 1/2 inch smaller than the pan on all sides). We unmold and cut them by freezing solid (below 0), place parchment on top and an upside down sheet pan. Turn entire thing over and pop brownie onto second sheet pan. Remove original pan and peel off bottom parchment. Cover bottom with fresh parchment and a clean sheet pan. Turn whole thing over again and take sheet pan and parchment off top of brownie. Use torch or hot water to heat knife as you cut, wiping off blade after each cut.

[Wendy DeBord]

In the case when you have a delicate finish I apply my finish after the item has been de-panned. Still freezing the item to unmold it. Sometimes I have to wait until the item is defrosted to apply the final surface, sometimes when it's semi-frozen it can be done. It's still typically worth freezing just to unmold nicely.

I like cutting thru a semi-frozen item, I get a cleaner cut. This almost always works best (except with buttercreams that will crack)..........but there are the occasional cakes/tortes that want to fall outward as you slice them. In that case, no matter when and how you cut that cake, it would have had that issue. Re-handling it to push it back together still is easier on a semi frozen item then a soft fresh cake.

I unmold items just as Neil wrote. Thanks Neil!

If you really don't want to unmold by inverting you can lift up one edge of your parchment and shove a cardboard (even a full sheet pan sized) underneath the item for support lifting it out of the pan. I know one bakery that uses plexi glass instead of cardboards because their stiffer (less likely to bend or crease) and it can be rewashed/reused. Lifting out a item with-out a ridged base ...........as CanandianBakin' mentioned is really risky because you can crack your base.

For the bars drizzled with chocolate while warm I have a question. Why do you drizzle when it's warm verses room temp.? I reserve the right to tell you how I'd do that after I know your answer.

As to the issue of "is it Fresh Baked?" if it's been frozen after baking. Thats a great question and something I'd love to see debated among us! The first thing that comes to my mind is how we label fish. It's been frozen at sea to preserve it's freshness until the boat makes shore-yet it's allowed to be called fresh and not frozen even though we all know it was frozen at sea.

I think we'd have to define what is fresh baked? Is it being sold with-in a 24 hour time frame from when it was baked? A loaf of bread isn't at it's prime at hour 23.

I think I have to restate that I'm not advocating keeping everything in your freezer for an unlimited time and calling that fresh! I'm trying to mention what a tool the freezer can and should be. Many times I'm not freezing an item until it's solidly frozen, I'm just getting it cold enough so I can handle it with-out it breaking or so I can cut it cleanly. Many times I'm baking the cake, freezing it, frosting it, serving it all on the same day.

Some items I'm keeping in the freezer raw for storage and then baking to order. Some bakeries are set up to bake everything fresh everyday. Some places you just can't do that, you don't have the man power or time.

If you bake a sheet pan of brownies and sell half of it in your show case, while the other half is frozen. After 5 days which half tastes better (after you defrost the second half)? I know of bakeries that sell that 5 day old brownie as fresh, just because it's never been frozen, even though it's now probably stale. Sure you and I would say I wouldn't sell a 5 day old brownie, but when every penny counts it's painful to have a high waste factor.

[CanadianBakin']

For the bars drizzled with chocolate while warm I have a question. Why do you drizzle when it's warm verses room temp.? I reserve the right to tell you how I'd do that after I know your answer.

It might be just me but it seems to "stick" better to the bar. I'd love to hear your opinion though.

[Wendy DeBord]

For the bars drizzled with chocolate while warm I have a question. Why do you drizzle when it's warm verses room temp.? I reserve the right to tell you how I'd do that after I know your answer.

It might be just me but it seems to "stick" better to the bar. I'd love to hear your opinion though.

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The reason I asked you is because of how it cuts. If your item is warm when you drizzle, that drizzle will melt on and stick better. When you go to cut it doesn't it break?.........since it adheared so well, isn't it hard to cut through it?

I cut mine first (seperate them out a little) then drizzle, so it won't crack when I cut it. I haven't found a better way. I've scored them when the chocolate was still warm but it still breaks for me when I cut. So if you've got a better method I'm definately interested in learning it, please.