Dave the Cook's Kitchen Reno On the Cheap

[robyn]

What kind of warranty do you get from the scratch and dent outlet? If the thing is sold "as is" - I'd forget about it. Robyn

[mklynch]

The KitchenAid range looks like the bottom drawer is a warming drawer. I had and oven like that and loved that feature so much. I used it alot for everything like warming plates, keeping food hot and proofing bread. Great feature!

[Dave the Cook]

The Kenmore and KA both have warming drawers.

All three come through Sears, and I'm in suburban Atlanta, so service for any of them is readily available. I'm intrigued by the extra features on the KA: proofing, drying, etc., so it's hard for me to dismiss. And you can't see it on the web page, but it feels well, heavier than the others. For some reason, that inspires confidence.

Can someone explain Sabbath mode?

[patti]

The Kenmore and KA both have warming drawers.

All three come through Sears, and I'm in suburban Atlanta, so service for any of them is readily available. I'm intrigued by the extra features on the KA: proofing, drying, etc., so it's hard for me to dismiss. And you can't see it on the web page, but it feels well, heavier than the others. For some reason, that inspires confidence.

Can someone explain Sabbath mode?

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I was wondering that, myself, and checked it out here: Sabbath Mode explanation

[andiesenji]

If this is the same Fridgidare I saw at the store, it has a smaller oven. However I can't find the oven dimensions of the Kenmore - I know that their ovens and the GE ovens are larger than the others in both width and height.

The spec sheet says the KA oven is 3.9 cubic ft., but the oven cavity volume is not listed on the other two.

I believe the Kenmore has one larger element in the cooktop which is nice for stockpots.

When I was shopping for a replacement for my broken cooktop I was only looking for gas but did look at the electrics also, just because I am curious. I noticed some of them had "bridging" elements which allowed cooking on two elements with one pan, something that is not advised without the bridging element because the surface between the elements heats unevenly and can crack.

As an aside OT. I really like the cheap replacement cooktop I bought at Sears. The burner deck surface is sunk down so that the burners are actually at the same level as the countertop and the grates are only elevated about 3/4 of an inch above the countertop surface. Quite different from the Dacor, where the top of the grate was at least 2 1/2 inches above the countertop level, if not more. It certainly is easier to move heavy pots on and off the burner grates. I am still dickering with the insurance company. They have agreed to the cost of the carpentry work to repair the under cabinet and countertop but they want to pro-rate the cooktop itself to 80% of the cost of a similar replacement because it was more than 5 years old. (6) However I have pointed out that this type of cooktop has a standard usable life of 20 years or more. Interesting how they operate. They apparently thought that since I was a senior citizen and live alone I would jump at their offer. Then the adjuster came to my home and had second thoughts. Now we play the waiting game.

[snowangel]

I'll chime in on the stove thing.

I had a kitchenaide (looks to be the same one you are looking at) and I really liked the burners that could be small or big (that's why they have two rings on them.) It was solid and a good performer. I went with gas in this house, but that was a no-brainer since there was a gas thingie right under where the stove was (I do believe there was originally gas and they went electric when they put in a really awful, cheap, horrible, terrible, no good stove).

Dave, yes, the stove is a serious dent. But, it would be a serious dent later on, too.

For the sideboard thing, go funky. You and your dog are cute enough to pull it off.

I'm still debating what to do about the ceilings. Right now, I'm leaning toward a smoked butt/beer thing so people can help me do the prep work. Now, my debate is spray or roll. The idea of 1200 feet of popcorn in my hair, then mudding/taping, and then painting is ageing me.

Word to the wise. Never buy a house in the dim light of a late December day. It sure looked like less work then.

I'm really starting to dislike the looks of my cupboards and cabinets. It's the color (the style is nothing great, either). They are oak, and they are solid and decent, so I can't justify replacing them (especially since we need a new furnace). Dave, what did you do to prep your cabinets to paint them? What kind of paint did you use?

Dave, have you had any more thoughts about lighting? We have an awful "cloud" flourescent fixture. It does a great job of lighting the space, but I swear it isn't 10 minutes after I clean out and replace the cover that it's full of bugs, and it's November in MN!

My new knobs were a real deal. Now, I think I need new hinges. Maybe on the one a week program. The sad thing is that I did a kitchen remodel, single handedly, barely 18 months before we realized we had to move. I'm having deja vu.

And, I have floor samples. CVT. A whole bunch of them. I'm planning to display them during the birthday parties I'm having for my mom and getting opinions. My family is being less than helpful about this, feeling that the harvest gold vinyl with chips, dings and cigarette burns looks just fine with my grey granite counters. .

[andiesenji]

The Kenmore and KA both have warming drawers.

Can someone explain Sabbath mode?

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I was wondering that, myself, and checked it out here: Sabbath Mode explanation

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Interesting, isn't it. Way back in the days just after I got out of the Army and went to work for an internist in North Hollywood, I wanted to live closer to work as my dad's home was in the north end of the Valley, a long way from work.

I wasn't keen on living alone so took a room with a family who were patients and very Orthodox.

In return for room and board, I acted as their Shabbos Goy, that is, I was there to operate things that were forbidden to them. It was a wonderful experience, they treated me like one of their daughters and I learned so much, including how to prepare some terrific foods.

It is nice that appliance makers are now accomodating the strictures for those who practice their faith.

[Dave the Cook]

Based on the oven cavity dimensions buried on the Frigidaire site, I calculate the oven size at 3.66 cubic feet.

Via PM, I was alerted to the fact that Frigidaire makes a great many of the Kenmore appliances. If you go to the Sears site and use their comparison feature to see the units side by side, you'll find it pretty hard to dispute that. This means that we're actually looking at the same range in two slightly different guises -- one has a handle on the bottom drawer; one has a warming drawer, etc. (I was reminded this afternoon that Frigidaire is owned by Electrolux. The label on the Frigidaire compiled the interesting lineage: made in Canada for an American subsidiary of a Swedish company, who imported it through Jacksonville, FL.) The upshot of all of that is that the Kenmore probably has the same size oven. So, Andie, how big an oven do I need? Is this a significant difference? I do turkey (maybe 14 pounds, max) once a year, a shank-end ham or a pork butt two or three times each. Am I OK with either?

Susan: I used a highly recommended primer called Bullseye 1-2-3, then two coats of semi-gloss enamel, sanding between coats but not after the primer. In retrospect, I'd use a full-gloss paint; I'm still thinking that I might go back and put a third coat on using full-gloss. The semi-gloss just takes fingerprints too easily (new knobs will stop this), and I figure it's going to take to grease almost as well.

I've been really surprised with our stadium-level lighting -- no bugs in the fixture, though it puts out enough lumens for the Georgia Dome, and we're in a highly wooded area. I still need some task lighting over the future work counter, though. I've got some ideas, but I haven't settled on anything yet. One interesting thing I've seen is relatively cheap halogen monorail at the DIY places -- a lot of flexibility in placement, and good color temperature. I'll post more as I find out more.

As for the popcorn, I'm fiercely resisting the impulse to do anything about it. My guess is that the previous owners were a divided couple -- one smoked and the other didn't. This means the kitchen is relatively clean. However, if anyone has suggestions for removing the wall coverings in the living room -- a textured cloth that stretches 24 feet up, and is as well-tinted as snowangel's ceilings, I'd love to hear about it.

[andiesenji]

Actually it is the height and depth of the oven that is most important. Many of the newer stoves have ovens that are not as tall as in older ranges and often getting a roaster with a high domed lid into one is impossible. For instance, my big Magnalite roaster is 12 1/2 inches high (to the top of the lid handle). If an oven is 14 inches high, the bottom shelf would have to be at least 2 inches from the bottom so air would circulate and that would mean this particular roaster would not fit.

The last time I shopped for a regular oven I took my three largest pans along with me to the store. (The Magnalite roaster, a large square jelly roll pan and my French bread pans)

I discovered that ovens come in some really odd configurations. Some wide but shallow and not very high. Some deep and high but not very wide, and so on.

I wondered if some of these designers had ever seen a roasting pan.

If I were in your situation I would take a couple of baking pans with me to the store and see how they fit.

My boss has a pair of Gaggenau ovens, wide but not very high. I wouldn't have one.

[Dave the Cook]

Great points, Andie. I will do as you suggest. Do you think anyone would object to me trying to wedge a big raw turkey into a showroom oven?

I understand about the Gaggeneau -- in fact, a lot of prosumer ranges have the same shortcoming. OTOH, Gaggenau has a really great aesthetic sensibility. Their stuff is just beautiful to look at.

[snowangel]

However, if anyone has suggestions for removing the wall coverings in the living room -- a textured cloth that stretches 24 feet up, and is as well-tinted as snowangel's ceilings, I'd love to hear about it.

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Lots of hot water and a putty knife, a ton of elbow grease and even more swearing. Been there, done that. In fact, still doing it. Bad taste. No accounting for it. Once you get the fabric off, it's even more of the above mentioned nasties to get the adhesive off. Me, I can't understand wall coverings. Paint is cheap and easily redone.

And, thanks for the Bulls Eye recomendation. I'm a big fan of their shellac.

Stove. For me, it's more about the cooktop than the oven. IMHO.

[Rachel Perlow]

Go to the grocery store with tape measure. Measure the largest turkey you will ever need. Go get a balloon or beach ball and blow it up to similar dimensions. Sit that in your roaster in the prospective oven. Don't forget the roasting rack.

[Mayhaw Man]

As for the cabinet painting, I live with a painter. A very good one. A really anal retentive, annoying, we're gonna do it my way or your life is gonna be a miserable pit of living hell, kinda gal.

We painted over a bunch of maple cabinets with oil based Kilz and then followed that with oil based semi gloss. Yes it stinks. Yes it's hard to clean up. Yes it's bullet proof and you can pretty much take any kind of cleanser that you want to them for cleanup. I highly reccomend oil based paint, as opposed to water based products. You will find yourself enjoying a decent paint job much longer. Every bit of woodwork in our house has been done this way and, even as I stand in my pit of a kitchen disaster, the moulding on the ceiling still looks great.

[Dave the Cook]

However, if anyone has suggestions for removing the wall coverings in the living room -- a textured cloth that stretches 24 feet up, and is as well-tinted as snowangel's ceilings, I'd love to hear about it.

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Lots of hot water and a putty knife, a ton of elbow grease and even more swearing. Been there, done that. In fact, still doing it. Bad taste. No accounting for it. Once you get the fabric off, it's even more of the above mentioned nasties to get the adhesive off. Me, I can't understand wall coverings. Paint is cheap and easily redone.

And, thanks for the Bulls Eye recomendation. I'm a big fan of their shellac.

Stove. For me, it's more about the cooktop than the oven. IMHO.

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Sounds like it would be easier just to put up new sheetrock!

I agree with you on the relative importance of cooktop versus oven. This is especially true in the summer, when I do a lot of oven tasks outside, anyway. But with the weather getting cooler, and darkness falling earlier (probably more important, actually), I've been surprised at how often I've had to rethink things in the last couple of weeks. Now, it's probably true that most of the time all I need is a hot box to finish things off, or provide low, steady heat for several hours. The thing is, the cooktops on these three units seem to be equal, so either I go for the cheapest alternative, or I look at other factors to make my decision. I see these as (in no particular order):

- size of oven

- flexibility of oven arrangement

- reputation (including recommendations from eGullet members)

- additional features

- for lack of a better term, feel -- how I respond to the unit when it's in front of me -- does it feel like a real cook's tool, or like a yuppie kitchen sculpture?

Go to the grocery store with tape measure. Measure the largest turkey you will ever need. Go get a balloon or beach ball and blow it up to similar dimensions. Sit that in your roaster in the prospective oven. Don't forget the roasting rack.

What a great idea. But you're taking all the fun out of it.

I highly reccomend oil based paint, as opposed to water based products. You will find yourself enjoying a decent paint job much longer. Every bit of woodwork in our house has been done this way and, even as I stand in my pit of a kitchen disaster, the moulding on the ceiling still looks great.

Where were you a month ago?

[Marlene]

Hey hero! i'd weigh in on the KitchenAid ovens, but that's because I swear by mine. In my new house, the oven is a Miele, and I'm sure it's nice, but the second oven I'm going to put in there will be a Kitchenaid.

And you still didn't tell us whether you bought the kA mixer or not.

[Dave the Cook]

This range problem has put a deep hole in my budget, so the idea of using pre-made cabinets is on very soft ground, and I'm going back to the idea of remodeling a sideboard or dresser of some sort. I found an art-deco piece today that's 60" W x 22" D x 36" high. It's ugly in the way that only badly executed art-deco can be. In other words, it might be perfect. I'll get a picture tomorrow.

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Here it is (I did a quick -and-dirty silhouette on it, because the background was so cluttered):

Here's the reverse angle. It's horribly out of focus, but it shows some of the shape in a way that the other picture doesn't.

Ten square feet of cabinets and incipient worktable: $225. Thoughts?

Oh, and this will just fit in one of the lower cabinets:

[snowangel]

I LOVE the sideboard (or whatever it's called). It's sleek and funky.

So, first coat of paint on the dining room/kitchen. The kids were hot to help me paint, for the firs 10 minutes.

Reminder to self. Never paint anything a dark color. The fairly dark green that was under the (swear words inserted) wallpaper was a fairly dark green. Two coats. What's under the chair rail in the dining area sure looked white under the green. Now it looks tan (is nicotine a color?). Better send Paul to get more paint during lunch tomorrow.

And, the paint (a bright grey/white) makes the ceilings look even worse.

I really hate the domino effect. Sad, isn't it, when you want hingest and light fixtures for presents, isn't is?

[fifi]

For both of you... Susan and Dave... I love you both dearly or I would never reveal such personal events.

I actually had a dream last night. There were these guys that had these mega vacuums with these snouts that exuded liquid into the popcorn ceiling and then successively sucked up the muck. The whole dream sequence could have something to do with havng the chimney sweeps in here last week due to code requirements but it seemed like a good idea.

[lovebenton0]

I LOVE the sideboard (or whatever it's called).  It's sleek and funky.

So, first coat of paint on the dining room/kitchen.  The kids were hot to help me paint, for the firs 10 minutes.

Reminder to self.  Never paint anything a dark color.  The fairly dark green that was under the (swear words inserted) wallpaper was a fairly dark green.  Two coats.  What's under the chair rail in the dining area sure looked white under the green.  Now it looks tan (is nicotine a color?).  Better send Paul to get more paint during lunch tomorrow.

And, the paint (a bright grey/white) makes the ceilings look even worse.

I really hate the domino effect.  Sad, isn't it, when you want hingest and light fixtures for presents, isn't is?

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Please don't tell me that's sad, Susan! Christmas for me is always something for the house -- ummmm, most b/days too. Let's see I've received paint, new deep SS sink, new BIG fridge, new light fixtures, two new ceiling fans (these are all new as opposed to the old ones in the house when we bought it, that weren't that old and perfectly serviceable but either ugly or I just didn't like them!), more paint, and now two essential work stations with lighting and a new floor on this year's list. It's only sad if I don't get them.

Block Out White is the best prep to use to cover up dark walls before painting.

Great sideboard, Dave! You can do a lot with that. And love the KA mixer, very cool red for the fresh kitchen.

Find red knobs yet?

[maggiethecat]

I think the sideboard might need a lick of paint. White paint, red knobs. It would give it a sweet French Country look and still match the cabinets. Of course, the Martha in me is considering red and white check door fronts (use blue painter's tape to frisket) or: we know you can draw. Freehand cherries?

Are you wedded to the idea of a new top? If you install one, you'll lose that charming curvey bit. Practically speaking, a new top (my choice is marble if you were on a fat budget, because it would look cool and French, but hey, a well made laminate slab would be fine) might give you more workspace. But what about simply situating a big, good-looking board and a trivet?

[Marlene]

Maggie, I'd think the top would be dificult as a work surface. Why not screw in a butcher's block over top of it? That curvey bit is charming, but for working, i can see it as a dirt and germ catcher, and won't be practical in case our hero is thinking of rolling out pie crust or something.

Red knobs yes. Red kickboards too in MHO

the Martha in me is considering red and white check door fronts (use blue painter's tape to frisket

Ok, let's not get carried away here.

[snowangel]

The walls are painted. They are beautiful. I have replaced the outlets, switches and covers. This is the good news.

The bad news is that this has made the ceilings look even worse. Sort of a dark brown color. They are so bad that they detract from the hideousness of the awful cigarette burned harvest gold vinyl floor.

I'm going to find out just how much it would cost to have them sprayed with more popcorn before I just bite the bullet and do it myself. I have ruled out removing the popcorn. My neighbor did this, and the ceiling will need to be taped and mudded, and it makes me dizzy to work over my head for the amount of time that would be necessary.

My new mantra: never again buy a fixer upper. Do not buy a house on a dim, dark December day. Oh, wait, I'm never moving again.

And, with that happy thought, I'm off to a spaghetti dinner at Peter's elementary school.

[Marlene]

My new mantra:  never again buy a fixer upper.  Do not buy a house on a dim, dark December day.  Oh, wait, I'm never moving again.

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Keep saying that

[winesonoma]

Count the drawers. I was shocked to find after we moved in we had one 10" wide drawer in the kitchen.

[maggiethecat]

The walls are painted.  They are beautiful.  I have replaced the outlets, switches and covers.  This is the good news.

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This is fabulous news! And isn't replacing switchplates and outlets immensely satisfying? Such improvement, so much self-satisfaction for what can be minimal time and expense!

So, our hero: Are you any closer to having a new stove by Thanksgiving? You don't need an oven to cook a turkey, but it sure helps with the green bean casserole and the pies.