Induction Cooktops

Wholemeal Crank · August 21, 2022

4 hours ago, KennethT said:

whether or not the power scale just adjusts how long the power is on for on a time weighted average - for instance, in my unit, when setting to 400W, it basically puts out the full 3200W for like 1 second, then it's off for 7 seconds or something like that. It's fine when simmering a pot of water, but when sauteeing or shallow frying you get a boil/cooling/boil/cooling cycle.

That's a great point to ponder. I don't mind that when I'm using a microwave to thaw soup, because a little off-time allows the heat to flow to the center of the frozen block so it heats more evenly, but it would be awful for a stir-fry.

What is a paragon probe? And I'm sure that's a one-burner/one pot at a time solution, right?

JoNorvelleWalker · August 21, 2022

6 minutes ago, Wholemeal Crank said:

That's a great point to ponder. I don't mind that when I'm using a microwave to thaw soup, because a little off-time allows the heat to flow to the center of the frozen block so it heats more evenly, but it would be awful for a stir-fry.

What is a paragon probe? And I'm sure that's a one-burner/one pot at a time solution, right?

https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-support-search-content?contentId=22533

Yes, the temperature control is for one burner only. How many pressure cookers and stockpots do you have cooking simultaneously?

It looks like Best Buy has the probe for $159.99...

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/precision-cooking-probe-for-select-ge-induction-cooktops-red-black-gray/4685300.p?skuId=4685300

JoNorvelleWalker · August 21, 2022

I happened to think that if the GE part number includes only the probe it would help with the stock pot situation but not with pressure cooking. For using a pressure cooker you would need the Paragon mat.

I may be misremembering but I recall @lindag has a GE induction stove. Perhaps she could say more?

Wholemeal Crank · August 21, 2022

6 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Yes, the temperature control is for one burner only. How many pressure cookers and stockpots do you have cooking simultaneously?

It looks like Best Buy has the probe for $159.99...

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/precision-cooking-probe-for-select-ge-induction-cooktops-red-black-gray/4685300.p?skuId=4685300

When I'm canning stock, as often as not I have 4 burners on at once, and often enough I've had 3 pressure cookers--the 22qt canner and 2 6qt Fagor pots--going at the same time. I prep several weeks' worth of soups and beans at one time on weekends, so things get busy on the stove.

The probe specs say the range is to 200 degrees, and the pressure cooker heats to 250 at 15 lbs, so this doesn't seem like the right tool for it. Plus if you can't immerse it, how do you use it inside the sealed cooker?

JoNorvelleWalker · August 21, 2022

10 hours ago, Wholemeal Crank said:

When I'm canning stock, as often as not I have 4 burners on at once, and often enough I've had 3 pressure cookers--the 22qt canner and 2 6qt Fagor pots--going at the same time. I prep several weeks' worth of soups and beans at one time on weekends, so things get busy on the stove.

The probe specs say the range is to 200 degrees, and the pressure cooker heats to 250 at 15 lbs, so this doesn't seem like the right tool for it. Plus if you can't immerse it, how do you use it inside the sealed cooker?

Wow, I only have three pressure cookers total. (Though I admit I have three Paragons, not that that helps you.)

Forgive me for misremembering the probe temperature range. I think I was previously corrected about this in an earlier thread. On the Paragon they allow the probe to go up to 375F, which is useful for deep frying. In my post just above I clarified that for use with a pressure cooker you would need the mat, which also goes up to 375F. I use the Paragon with the mat several times a week (most recently the last two nights), whereas I seldom use the probe. I do not know if the mat would work with the stovetop or not.

To pressure cook with the mat, usually a batch of Rancho Gordo beans, I set the temperature to 260F till in a couple minutes the pot comes up to pressure. Then I reduce the temperature to whatever temperature I want for cooking. I can then go take a shower or read eGullet without worrying about beans on the kitchen ceiling.

cgman117 · August 22, 2022

On 8/20/2022 at 11:32 AM, Wholemeal Crank said:

So far, my 30 inch slot seems quite limiting--when I select that option I'm down to 1 or maybe 2 choices vs a half dozen for the larger size, searching so far GE, Miele, Bosch.

Even the $8000 Miele, which does have 'steam injection program cooking', doesn't have truly continuous cooktop temp controls--it's a 1 to 9 power scale. That's much better than the 5 settings on the electric range I grew up with, but still not great. When you're pressure cooking something for 30-45 minutes at pressure, you want just that gentle puff puff puff, and that takes precise control.....that's where I'm most often fussing to get things *just right*.

And the people on the Bosch website chat can't do any more than read the manual, which only says that the auto-shut-off settings vary by power selected, and won't tell me if the setting required to keep a 16 quart stockpot simmering for meat stock will let me run it for 6 hours without having to reset over and over. All they can do is read the manual that doesn't say.

It was much easier shopping for the gas range.

Another option is to get commercial induction cooktops. I have a Hatco PIC that's been great. Hatco has single or dual high-power dual burner units that have 30"-10hr timers (1 sec. to 100 hrs. in program mode), 3-stage program and single/dual temperatures probes. Their units can be set to a specific temperature or power levels from 1-100% allowing very precise and repeatable settings.

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/hatco-irng-pc2s-36-high-power-heavy-duty-commercial-dual-induction-range-with-knob-control-208-240v-7200w/413IRNPC2S36.html

If I were building a kitchen, this would be my first choice, since residential units seem inferior even at the high-end.

Edited August 22, 2022 by cgman117 (log)

Wholemeal Crank · August 28, 2022

That makes sense for building a new kitchen, but I've got a very functional space for a 30" slide in range, and no good space for a wall oven or drop in range. Wish I'd pushed for a 36 inch at the beginning, would be more options now....

Anna N · August 28, 2022

29 minutes ago, Wholemeal Crank said:

That makes sense for building a new kitchen, but I've got a very functional space for a 30" slide in range, and no good space for a wall oven or drop in range. Wish I'd pushed for a 36 inch at the beginning, would be more options now....

Any reason that you cannot supplement with a standalone induction hob?

Wholemeal Crank · August 30, 2022

On 8/28/2022 at 9:26 AM, Anna N said:

Any reason that you cannot supplement with a standalone induction hob

I can supplement with it, but I've been thinking about replacing my gas range with induction for quite some time, but never really looked at what the practicalities of what that would mean before, so am exploring in this opportune moment because the gas convection is on the fritz--repair or replace with induction is my current question. Perhaps repair, try a single standalone burner (this is your use of 'hob', correct?) to play with induction, and replace at a later time when options are more flexible with properly simple and honest analog controls for the induction cooking.

KennethT · August 30, 2022

3 minutes ago, Wholemeal Crank said:

I can supplement with it, but I've been thinking about replacing my gas range with induction for quite some time, but never really looked at what the practicalities of what that would mean before, so am exploring in this opportune moment because the gas convection is on the fritz--repair or replace with induction is my current question. Perhaps repair, try a single standalone burner (this is your use of 'hob', correct?) to play with induction, and replace at a later time when options are more flexible with properly simple and honest analog controls for the induction cooking.

If you're planning on trying a standalone burner (aka hob), I'd recommend a 230V model rather than a 120V one as they can be much more powerful. Hard to get a good sear or boil water quickly with only 1800W, the max of 120V models.

Anna N · August 30, 2022

7 minutes ago, Wholemeal Crank said:

single standalone burner (this is your use of 'hob', correct?

Yes. But I was trying to overcome the limitation of your 30 inch range - allowing you 3 pans on it and a 4th on the stand-alone.

On 8/21/2022 at 2:30 AM, Wholemeal Crank said:

When I'm canning stock, as often as not I have 4 burners on at once, and often enough I've had 3 pressure cookers--the 22qt canner and 2 6qt Fagor pots--going at the same time. I prep several weeks' worth of soups and beans at one time on weekends, so things get busy on the stove.

chromedome · August 30, 2022

11 minutes ago, Anna N said:

Yes. But I was trying to overcome the limitation of your 30 inch range - allowing you 3 pans on it and a 4th on the stand-alone.

I did this pretty much for the entirety of the past three years, living in a rental with a 24-inch range. That gave me three small burners and one large, which was inadequate, so I put a cheapie induction hob alongside the range. In practice, I ended up using that for the vast majority of my cooking.

afs · December 3, 2022

I currently have two Breville Control Freaks (1800W, 120V) and need to pick up a third induction stovetop. I'm thinking that it probably makes sense to pick up a high-wattage unit (3600W-3800W, 240V) which would be useful for boiling water, heavy searing work, wok cooking, etc.

I have a collection of Falk induction-compatible copper pans. The pans with bottom diameters of 11.5cm to 26cm work pretty great. But I also have a few that I bought for the oven which are a little bit too small (10.5cm bottom diameter) or a bit too large (28-35cm bottom diameter) for the Breville cooktops. Plus it would be nice to have a cooktop that can work in either power output % mode or temperature control mode.

I'm looking at the following two cooktops:

Hatco IRNG-PC1-36 (3600W, 240V) (eG-friendly Amazon.com link)
Vollrath HPI4-3800 (3800W, 240V) (webstaurantstore.com)

@cgman117 mentioned the Hatco unit (thank you). At just over half the price of the Vollrath, it seems to do just about everything the Vollrath can do--plus it'll work with my smallest and largest induction-compatible copper pans.

I know that the Vollrath unit is about 5% more powerful and that it's supposed to be able to deliver energy to the pan even when the pan is lifted above the induction plate (useful for my Falk 28cm Wok, for some sautéing, etc.). But the Hatco unit is basically the same size as my Control Freaks, whereas the Vollrath unit is bulkier.

I've also heard that the Vollrath units like to run their fans all the time, even when off, which would require me to install a switch to turn on/off its power.

Has anyone here had experience with one or both of these? Which one would you get for your home?

afs · December 4, 2022

Regarding the Hatco and Vollrath units, one of my concerns is controlling the heat ramping speed.

On the Breville Control Freak, when I set a target temperature I also set a heat intensity (slow, medium or fast). So I get to control how much energy is going into the pan when the pan is being heated.

With the Hatco, the video on their product page shows that I can set a power intensity to cook with until a temperature is reached in custom programs. But their manual (on page 14) seems to say that I can only used timed programs, based on either power intensity OR target temperature. And when just using the machine ad-hoc, the demos also make it seem like I either have to set the power level OR the target temperature.

That worries me, as there are lots of times that I want to ramp up to a temperature slowly (like when I'm making yogurt). And I don't want to have to create a new "program" every time I cook, to do both at the same time (if that's even possible on the Hatco).

And with the Vollrath, well, this is what they say in their manual (on page 5).
"When heating delicate foods, start with a lower temperature and gradually increase temperature."

That makes me think that I would basically end up just using the machine as a boiling/searing machine. And if I ever wanted to do temperature control and didn't want maximum heat intensity, I'd basically need to stand there nudging the temperature dial a little bit at a time. 🤦‍♂️

Does anyone know of another commercial-quality induction burner that's high wattage and also lets me control both power intensity and target temperature at the same time? Bonus if it will also show me both the probe and pan temperature while it's cooking.

Edited December 4, 2022 by afs
Added links, expanded post (log)

afs · February 12, 2023

A quick update... I ended up picking up a Vollrath HPI4-3800 (3800W, 208V-240V).

Here are a few quick observations which I thought might be useful. This is not a typical induction cooktop; it has some interesting quirks and features (to borrow a line from Doug DeMuro).

The pan temperature sensor is not super-accurate. When boiling water, a setting of 85C-90C would often bring the water to a boil (near sea level); other times I had to raise the temperature setting to 95-100C to attain a boil. I think the pan temperature sensor is basically measuring the temperature of the glass surface from underneath the glass (versus the Control Freak which uses a metallic, full-contact pan sensor).
On that first note, preheating heavily-responsive pans (like induction-compatible copper pans) is best done with something in the pan. This machine can overshoot or misjudge the temperature of empty pans by many, many tens of degrees. I probably won't leave the cooktop unattended for the same reason (to avoid dramatic overheating of pans whose water has boiled or evaporated away).
The rough pan temperature measurement is useful though, in terms of keeping the temperature in a general range. But the probe temperature control (which has direct contact with the food/liquid) is almost definitely going to be the way to go when precision is needed. On that point, I can temper chocolate in my Control Freak using pan temperature control; on the Vollrath, I need a probe in the chocolate.
The cooktop delivers a variable amount of energy to maintain temperature (instead of gently pulsing power), at least in my initial tests. I monitored a power (amp/watt) meter in real-time while boiling water and the machine adjusted the power level dynamically to maintain temperature. Pretty cool.
3800W, as it turns out, is a lot of power. Vollrath equates it to 33,000 BTUs equivalent power (although they're not converting watts to BTUs in that equation).
I can lift the pan off the surface by several centimeters (and maybe several inches) and the cooktop keeps delivering power. The amount of power decreases as the pan moves away from the cooking surface. This is probably useful for cooks who want to lift their pans a little to slide or flip food without losing the heat source, similar to a gas stove. I have not seen this in any other induction cooktop.
Boil pattern from the coil appears to be in the 7-8" range. I will need to do some closer measurements to figure out how big the coil is. It's not a super-large coil, but it's also not small.
When switching between "power intensity manual control mode", "degrees F control mode" and "degrees C control mode", the unit does not translate the temperature between C and F. It remembers the last setting in each mode. This means that switching between C and F modes can result in a very jarring acceleration in heat energy unless one transitions quickly to the next mode or turns down the dial. That really feels like a bug, so hopefully that can be fixed in a firmware update.
The power intensity in manual control mode, as measured in watts, is pretty linear. The lower end of the range has a smaller wattage difference between each percent, but every 10% of the range is approximately 380 watts.
The fan is not particularly quiet, and it runs when it wants to--whether or not the cooktop is running at the time.
No warranty for non-commercial users.

If someone asked me about a high-power induction stove for residential use, I'd probably point them at a built-in unit or perhaps the Hatco unit (if Hatco honors their warranty for residential users). But for a commercial kitchen moving from gas to induction, and for cooks who understand how to cook by sight and sound and relative power intensity (and don't care about warranty), this could be a really interesting high-power induction cooktop.

palo · February 12, 2023

4 hours ago, afs said:

I can lift the pan off the surface by several centimeters (and maybe several inches) and the cooktop keeps delivering power. The amount of power decreases as the pan moves away from the cooking surface. This is probably useful for cooks who want to lift their pans a little to slide or flip food without losing the heat source, similar to a gas stove. I have not seen this in any other induction cooktop.

I have a Max Burton ProChef-3000.

3000 watts - 220volts commercial unit NSF certified 9 inch cooking coil - approx $400 when I bought it more than a few years ago

I can take the pan off the cooktop, go the the sink, add some water, replace the pan and it continues to cook - I don't know if the power decreases when the pan is off the cooktop but it doesn't turn off and just resumes cooking.

As mine is an older model it does not have a temperature probe but the newer models do

I would add this to anyone's shopping list for a high-power induction stove for residential use or commercial use (comes with a 1 year warranty for both commercial and residential use)

p

KennethT · February 12, 2023

2 hours ago, palo said:

I have a Max Burton ProChef-3000.

3000 watts - 220volts commercial unit NSF certified 9 inch cooking coil - approx $400 when I bought it more than a few years ago

I can take the pan off the cooktop, go the the sink, add some water, replace the pan and it continues to cook - I don't know if the power decreases when the pan is off the cooktop but it doesn't turn off and just resumes cooking.

As mine is an older model it does not have a temperature probe but the newer models do

I would add this to anyone's shopping list for a high-power induction stove for residential use or commercial use (comes with a 1 year warranty for both commercial and residential use)

p

How does this unit provide power lower than 3000W? Does it pulse or does it put out lower power continuously like the Vollrath?

One of the things that drives me crazy about my high power induction unit is when I need to do something on something like 1200W, it pulses the power so if I'm sweating garlic/onion, it'll fry like crazy for a second then stop frying completely for a second then repeat.

KennethT · February 12, 2023

7 hours ago, afs said:

A quick update... I ended up picking up a Vollrath HPI4-3800 (3800W, 208V-240V).

Here are a few quick observations which I thought might be useful. This is not a typical induction cooktop; it has some interesting quirks and features (to borrow a line from Doug DeMuro).

The pan temperature sensor is not super-accurate. When boiling water, a setting of 85C-90C would often bring the water to a boil (near sea level); other times I had to raise the temperature setting to 95-100C to attain a boil. I think the pan temperature sensor is basically measuring the temperature of the glass surface from underneath the glass (versus the Control Freak which uses a metallic, full-contact pan sensor).

On that first note, preheating heavily-responsive pans (like induction-compatible copper pans) is best done with something in the pan. This machine can overshoot or misjudge the temperature of empty pans by many, many tens of degrees. I probably won't leave the cooktop unattended for the same reason (to avoid dramatic overheating of pans whose water has boiled or evaporated away).

The rough pan temperature measurement is useful though, in terms of keeping the temperature in a general range. But the probe temperature control (which has direct contact with the food/liquid) is almost definitely going to be the way to go when precision is needed. On that point, I can temper chocolate in my Control Freak using pan temperature control; on the Vollrath, I need a probe in the chocolate.

The cooktop delivers a variable amount of energy to maintain temperature (instead of gently pulsing power), at least in my initial tests. I monitored a power (amp/watt) meter in real-time while boiling water and the machine adjusted the power level dynamically to maintain temperature. Pretty cool.

3800W, as it turns out, is a lot of power. Vollrath equates it to 33,000 BTUs equivalent power (although they're not converting watts to BTUs in that equation).

I can lift the pan off the surface by several centimeters (and maybe several inches) and the cooktop keeps delivering power. The amount of power decreases as the pan moves away from the cooking surface. This is probably useful for cooks who want to lift their pans a little to slide or flip food without losing the heat source, similar to a gas stove. I have not seen this in any other induction cooktop.

Boil pattern from the coil appears to be in the 7-8" range. I will need to do some closer measurements to figure out how big the coil is. It's not a super-large coil, but it's also not small.

When switching between "power intensity manual control mode", "degrees F control mode" and "degrees C control mode", the unit does not translate the temperature between C and F. It remembers the last setting in each mode. This means that switching between C and F modes can result in a very jarring acceleration in heat energy unless one transitions quickly to the next mode or turns down the dial. That really feels like a bug, so hopefully that can be fixed in a firmware update.

The power intensity in manual control mode, as measured in watts, is pretty linear. The lower end of the range has a smaller wattage difference between each percent, but every 10% of the range is approximately 380 watts.

The fan is not particularly quiet, and it runs when it wants to--whether or not the cooktop is running at the time.

No warranty for non-commercial users.

If someone asked me about a high-power induction stove for residential use, I'd probably point them at a built-in unit or perhaps the Hatco unit (if Hatco honors their warranty for residential users). But for a commercial kitchen moving from gas to induction, and for cooks who understand how to cook by sight and sound and relative power intensity (and don't care about warranty), this could be a really interesting high-power induction cooktop.

Thanks for this. I've been seriously looking at the HPI4-2600 primarily because of the variable energy output (that's what they advertise) and because you can use it sort of like a gas range. I don't think I'd ever use the temperature control (other than with the probe to monitor oil temp when deep frying) - adjusting the power between 1 and 100% in 1% increments seems really attractive to me.

palo · February 12, 2023

I believe it pulses, but I'm happy with it - which is all you can hope for

p

palo · February 12, 2023

I just checked the price of the HPI4-2600!!!!

That's over 6 times the price of mine!!!

p

KennethT · February 12, 2023

1 hour ago, palo said:

I just checked the price of the HPI4-2600!!!!

That's over 6 times the price of mine!!!

p

Did you get yours used? Also, the price on the Vollrath site is a LOT higher than some of their resellers.

palo · February 12, 2023

16 minutes ago, KennethT said:

Did you get yours used? Also, the price on the Vollrath site is a LOT higher than some of their resellers.

Mine is a Max Burton ProChef-3000 from Amazon

p

afs · February 12, 2023

1 hour ago, palo said:

I just checked the price of the HPI4-2600!!!!

That's over 6 times the price of mine!!!

For that 2600W unit you're mentioning, I'm seeing an off-the-shelf price of just over 1200 USD here in the U.S. (versus ~2600 USD MSRP listed on Vollrath's website).

The Vollrath HPI4 units list/retail for twice (or more) of what the street price is. I don't know the reason for that; it's just how it is. Perhaps this is one case where pricing in the U.S. market is lower for a U.S. company's products.

Outside of the U.S. the prices might be quite a bit higher. In any case, these are not inexpensive units.

palo · February 12, 2023

I just googled the model # and that was the pricing:

https://www.vollrathfoodservice.com/products/countertop-equipment/cooking-equipment/induction-ranges/4-series-induction-range/hpi4-2600

You're probably right - MSRP vs street price

It is expensive, too much for my pockets

p

afs · February 12, 2023

4 hours ago, palo said:

I have a Max Burton ProChef-3000.

3000 watts - 220volts commercial unit NSF certified 9 inch cooking coil - approx $400 when I bought it more than a few years ago

I can take the pan off the cooktop, go the the sink, add some water, replace the pan and it continues to cook - I don't know if the power decreases when the pan is off the cooktop but it doesn't turn off and just resumes cooking.

As mine is an older model it does not have a temperature probe but the newer models do

I would add this to anyone's shopping list for a high-power induction stove for residential use or commercial use (comes with a 1 year warranty for both commercial and residential use)

With induction, the heat transfer can only happen when there's a pan on (or near, in the case of Vollrath's 4-series) the surface of the cooktop. Induction cooktops generally don't heat the cooktop surface; instead they heat the pan/pot sitting on top. This is not too dissimilar from how wireless chargers for phones work.

When you take the pan off the cooktop and go to the sink, the induction coil basically shuts down while you're away momentarily. Then when you return the pan to the cooktop, your cooktop is smart enough to detect the pan and start transferring energy again (i.e. resume cooking).

I just realized that the $400 you were quoting is probably CAD, not USD. I don't know what the exchange rate was a few years back on that unit. Today's price on that unit at Amazon.com (eG-friendly Amazon.com link) is 250 USD, so that sounds like quite a nice high-power induction cooktop at that price point. It seems like you chose well for your application

Edited February 12, 2023 by afs (log)

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