Home-made Pie Crust: Tips & Troubleshooting

[jackal10]

Pix...we need snaps....

[dougal]

Someone at another forum says that a pie crust recipe calling for boiling water to be poured over the lard turns out really well.  I've never made one this way and I have to know if ayone else has.  Wouldn't using melted lard make it impossible to have a flaky crust?  I guess it would be the same as pie crusts with oil, but I've never seen the point of those, either.  Someone enlighten me, please.

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Hot water crust pastry is the type used for the "old fashioned" raised pies such as the famous English Melton Mowbray pie. The pastry is very robust - not flaky. It is different from other pastry in that it can be moulded like clay - so free-standing crusts (used to be called "coffins" in the old days) can be modelled.

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Its important to understand that this type of pastry is not remotely 'flaky' ... "Robust" is a very polite way of putting it!

There's a slight variation in the method used by my pal Pricey.

His method is illustrated and described *here*.

He mixes the pastry hot, but having added some butter, he can rest (and cool) it before rolling.

He forms the pie *inside* a cake tin.

Then having filled, topped and baked the pie, he unmoulds it, glazes it with egg-wash and briefly bakes on the glaze.

It may be considered to be cheating a little, but I can personally confirm that Pricey does make a jolly good Pork Pie.

[dougal]

question? Could this crust be used for any savory pie? Like a beef pot pie (stew, basically) or chicken pot pie? I know they'd have to be pretty dry, and what gravy there was would have to be very thick, but I find regular pie crust just don't hold up well when I want to make a pot pie. Just a thought.

And if the answer is that they won't hold up, I wonder if anyone has thought of, or tried something not so ornamental as a malange' of game birds, but of just pressed duck breast, or even barely wet pulled pork. I may be talking sacrilage here....don't want to piss off the traditionalist.

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The basic point is that in England, such pies would only be eaten cold, at ambient temperature, with a filling that has jelled/solidified, so that it can be served cut into wedge slices like a large sponge cake.

Pork and apple, pork and caramelised onion and (pork and) game pies are quite mainstream.

As such, large pies are delicatessen-type food, for serving at home with a salad or to be part of a smart picnic hamper. Individual (single-portion) pies are sold too.

In Scotland however... a similar (if not lardier) pastry might be found holding hot minced beef (or mutton) in gravy (or even, as Binkyboots writes, such strangenesses as macaroni in a cheese sauce) in take-away (street-type) food shops. The pastry functions as a ruggedised container...

These are hot, small, cheap and utilitarian. Scottish 'soul food'. (Despite the lack of oatmeal!)

Edited November 21, 2007 by dougal (log)

[dougal]

To blow Dan Lepard's trumpet ( ?) for a moment!

He has a baking supplement coming out in this Saturday's edition of The Guardian newspaper (UK), and he has posted a teaser on his own forum...

One of the pix is this:

Dan normally posts his Guardian recipes on his forum after publication. Don't know what the position will be with these...

The story (so far) is here

http://www.danlepard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1566

Certainly looks excellent!

[Host's note: Use of the above image was authorized by the owner]

Edited November 22, 2007 by gfron1 (log)

[danlepard]

I stayed clear of the whole "definitive pork pie" thing, and the one in the newspaper tomorrow is a gammon and pork pie. The gammon (uncooked cured pork) is mixed with the fresh pork overnight in the refrigerator, together with the spices, and this makes the pork go a little pink. It isn't nearly as hard as traditional wisdom says it should be, and I suspect the pork pie establishment put out scare stories to ward off renegade home bakers whipping up pork pies in their kitchens. I let the dough get to room temperature, and make it with lard and a little butter.

I would even say it was easier to make a good hot water crust pie than you might imagine. A world-class championship one? That might be difficult. But a very good one should be an easy task for anyone willing to put a bit of time into it.

Dan

[jgm]

I would also suggest to be careful about the way you're rolling out the dough. My grandmother taught me to use the rolling pin to spread the dough, and make sure I wasn't using a stretching/massaging movement. She always started with her rolling pin in the center of the dough, and worked from the center out in all directions. And she also said to make sure the dough wasn't sticking to the surface (i.e., countertop or whatever you're using), since the sticking could cause some stretching.

Just some points to ponder.

[Anna Skigin]

After reading this topic I feel I'll be able to bake a nice pie at last. You guys are so helpful!

One more question: what kind of pan it's better to use? I have a silicone one and I'm not happy with it at all

[paulraphael]

Just a few possibilities, some of which have already been mentioned:

-dough should be rolled out, not stretched. Rolling it out a bit wide and then actually compressing it a bit to fit in the pan is ideal.

-gluten needs to be relaxed. mixing the dough as little as possible, using as little water as possible, and giving it as much time as possible to rest, both before filling the pan and then before baking, are ways to achieve this. it's very easy to use too much water. unless you're already on top of this, I'd try using 2/3 as much water as you're currently using. The dough probably won't hold together. Put it in the fridge, covered, for 20 minutes and try again. The flour needs some time to fully hydrate.

-add less water along with the fat. i don't like to go as far as using shortening, but I'll use a high buterfat, european style butter (84% to 85% butterfat). Tastier results, better texture, and less shrinkage.

[tmgrobyn]

One last thing. Try using a different flour.The higher the protein the higher the gluten level and the stretchier the dough will be. If you aren't already ready using one, try a pastry flour. I have had good luck with King Arthur Pastry Flour has worked well for me.

[Marlene]

Mostly I've solved the incredible shrinking crust issue by having an overhang which I roll off after the shell has been blind baked. What I still have a problem with is the bottom puffing up after the foil and the weights have been removed!

[Beanie]

Mostly I've solved the incredible shrinking crust issue by having an overhang which I roll off after the shell has been blind baked.  What I still have a problem with is the bottom puffing up after the foil and the weights have been removed!

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I had the same puffing problem last week. I pulled out the pie plate from the oven and literally used the palm of my hand and a piece of foil to push the bottom down. I also pushed in the sides. I had to do this three times, about 5 minutes apart. It was a pain in the butt (or, er, the hand), but it was effective. Also, instead of using my regular all butter recipe, I used Dorie Greenspan's good-for-almost-everything pie dough, which contains butter and shortening. After lining the pie plate, I froze it overnight, then baked it with foil and weights. Despite the puffing problem, this was the first crust I have blind baked without any shrinkage. An earlier post suggested using shortening instead of all butter to prevent shrinkage. It worked for me.

I'm curious about how you "roll off" the overhang. How much of an overhang do you leave?

[Pam R]

Puffing dough - do you dock it before baking?

[Marlene]

I can't roll it off if I'm using a pie plate, but it works well with a tart tin perhaps because the edges are sharper than a pie plate. I leave about a half to three quarters of an inch I'd guess all the way around. I do freeze my shell before baking it. After the shell has been blind baked, I set the pan on a towel and literally use my rolling pin to roll over the top and the overhang comes right off. Then I set the tin on a rack to cool. I almost always use Keller's pate brisee from Bouchon, because it seems to work for me. But the puffing thing drives me crazy.

[Marlene]

Puffing dough - do you dock it before baking?

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I'm no baker, so I have no clue what docking is. So probably not. I do prick it all over with a fork. Is that the same thing?

Edited November 27, 2007 by Marlene (log)

[Toliver]

Puffing dough - do you dock it before baking?

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I'm no baker, so I have no clue what docking is. So probably not. I do prick it all over with a fork. Is that the same thing?

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Yes, pricking the dough with your fork is called docking.

[Marlene]

Puffing dough - do you dock it before baking?

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I'm no baker, so I have no clue what docking is. So probably not. I do prick it all over with a fork. Is that the same thing?

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Yes, pricking the dough with your fork is called docking.

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Thanks! Apparently, I need an Elements of Baking book. I just made a bacon onion and cheese tart for dinner tonight. I still had the puffing problem, but I did what Beanie suggested and pushed it down every 5 minutes with some tin foil. That helped a lot, but not completely.

[Pam R]

What Toliver said.

I find that if I've pricked the dough before baking, and it still puffs up, another couple of pricks during baking will deflate it.

[tangaloor]

I just picked up this issue of CI (slow on the draw, I know). Any more experiences with using vodka in pastry crust? Has this technique become the new standard, or is it a flash in the pie-pan that no one will bother with a few years from now?

I was also intrigued by the food-processor flour/fat paste + extra flour method. I make pie pastry with warm butter and flour and have never had a problem, but the puree approach seems a bit much...

[K8memphis]

Well I was just coming down with a doozey of a cold when I was making my Thanksgiving apple pie. And umm, at the last minute I remembered the vodka thing and of course, we were out of vodka. But I had some Hot Damn which is a cinnamon liqueur. Well, I'm mostly writing to say that the whole thing wasn't as good as my normal traditional apple pie. The cold, my sinuses were slammed, couldn't think, the changing up of the recipe, the whole thing didn't work out. Now it was still better than most apple pies but it was a far cry from my usual extremely awesome apple pie.

So maybe I'll try again for Christmas...but honestly, y'know the old 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' if I make another one this year, I'm deleting the vodka. Well, maybe I'll just make a little bitty one with the vodka...we'll see.

[choux]

I made it and liked it a lot, it was very tender and also flaky. It won't hurt to try it once and see, will it?

[fooey]

Edit to add: gfron, re: using Everclear - I wonder why they don't just use straight vodka instead of 1/2 vodka and 1/2 water, since there is quite a bit of water in the alcohol. Maybe it turns out too boozy? Certainly worth experimenting.

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[jsmeeker]

I just picked up this issue of CI (slow on the draw, I know).  Any more experiences with using vodka in pastry crust?  Has this technique become the new standard, or is it a flash in the pie-pan that no one will bother with a few years from now?

I was also intrigued by the food-processor flour/fat paste + extra flour method.  I make pie pastry with warm butter and flour and have never had a problem, but the puree approach seems a bit much...

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I made their pie dough for a Turkey Day pie.. Turned out well. I really amy liking this method.. May very well become my standard pie dough.

[jgm]

Since I have to make 3 pies for a Christmas party tonight, I did a test run with a small batch, turning it into strips of dough baked on a cookie sheet, some plain, some with cinnamon and sugar.

This is, by far, the flakiest crust I've ever made. I'm sold.

I did not use the CI recipe. I used my own method, and just used about half alcohol.

I didn't have any vodka in the house, and although here in Kansas we have a brand-new shiny law that allows us to purchase liquor on Sundays now (will wonders never cease!), I decided to "make do" and use brandy. There was no discernible taste in the finished crust.

FYI my method, in a nutshell: For a one-crust pie, one fist-sized lump of Crisco no-trans-fat butter-flavored shortening, which had been refrigerated overnight. For a two-crust pie, two lumps. A good-sized pinch of salt. Sift Gold Medal Unbleached flour over, and work the shortening and flour together with a fork, rotating the bowl as you go. Add flour until biggest lumps of shortening are about the size of small peas. Splash in a glug or two of milk. Stir crust. Add more milk and stir again (gently, gently, more like a tossing motion) until it all hangs together. Turn out onto a lightly-floured board and knead gently about half a dozen times, until it's willing to form a coherent ball. Roll it out and make the pie.

The method was taught to me by my mother, who was taught by her mother, who was taught by her mother, etc. No idea how far back it goes, but the women in our family are proud of their pie crusts, and we always enjoy many compliments, despite the lack of upscale ingredients and methods. No, I don't refrigerate the bowl, or the dough after it's been made, unless I'm not going to roll it out right away.

Here's how it looks:

[sus]

Hello Hello!

It is that time of the year where I start making pies and stuff. I have my great recipes that I generally use but this year I am spending Thanks Giving with the SO and his family in Denver. I had not been planning on doing anything because I generally feel uncomfortable cooking at other people's kitchen but I guess my SO offered me and my baking skills for Thanks Giving. Apparently, I will be baking an apple pie and perhaps a pumpkin pie, with my very own crust. I have never baked at high altitudes and am a bit nervous about the process. I would love to hear your feedback and possibly recipes for a delicious pumpkin pie and/or apple pie baked at high altitudes that would be great. Looking forward to your feedback, suggestions and recipes!

Sue

[Tri2Cook]

I thought the main purpose of high altitude adjustments had to do with trying to give the item time to build sufficient structure to support itself. Since apple and pumpkin pie and their crusts don't generally involve leavening of any type, I'd think "use your usual recipe and bake 'til done" would cover it... but I don't live at high altitude so take that for what it's worth.