Home-made Pie Crust: Tips & Troubleshooting

[John DePaula]

Why not just parbake, though?

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I'm bad at this too!! Even with the old fill the crust with beans method, my crust shrinks. I think I will just have to put in some more time practicing, as some have suggested. I guess there are worse kinds of "homework" to have!

Seriously, though, baking a good pie is one of those things that is much harder than it looks.

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You do need to let your dough rest before rolling out and filling the pan. You can let it rest afterwards in the 'frigo before baking, too.

[John DePaula]

Thanks everyone, I'm feeling better now. 

My sweet husband ate that damned pie with the soggy bottom and proclaimed it the best cherry pie he'd ever eaten. I'm going to put your suggestions to use next time, though.

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Wow... sounds like he's a "keeper!"

[Becca Porter]

Why not just parbake, though?

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I'm bad at this too!! Even with the old fill the crust with beans method, my crust shrinks. I think I will just have to put in some more time practicing, as some have suggested. I guess there are worse kinds of "homework" to have!

Seriously, though, baking a good pie is one of those things that is much harder than it looks.

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You do need to let your dough rest before rolling out and filling the pan. You can let it rest afterwards in the 'frigo before baking, too.

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Yes, and also make sure when you place it in the pie pan, you do not stretch it to fit. You have to actually pick it up and move it where it needs to be. Any place that is stretched will shrink back.

I always follow Cook's Illustrated's timing when I do have to bake a pie shell. It works great. You do 40 minutes in the refrigerator and then 20 minutes in the freezer. Then you weight and bake.

[miladyinsanity]

Oh. I always parbake. I didn't know that you weren't supposed to parbake the bottom crust for double crust pies. I just thought what worked for single crust would work for double crust too.

[MaryMc]

Interesting, I also put them on the stone, but I do it first, then move it up. I also coat the bottom, but most of the time I use a complementary flavored perserve/glaze. My timing varies according to the type of pie/tart I'm making. Next time I'll try it in reverse.

I would worry that the glass pie plate might shatter if I set it on a very hot baking stone. But you haven't had that problem?

The preserves are a good idea--I'll have to try that!

[plk]

Hmm, regular glass or ceramic probably would crack, but I've had no problems with putting pyrex directly on a hot stone, and there wouldn't be a problem with metal, either. But for something that could crack, it would be safer to let it heat up on a rack and then move it down to a stone.

[Becca Porter]

Oh. I always parbake. I didn't know that you weren't supposed to parbake the bottom crust for double crust pies. I just thought what worked for single crust would work for double crust too.

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The main problem would be attaching the top crust to the bottom crust securely enough to prevent major leakage. Usually you would fold the top crust under the bottom crust and flute. Which you cannot do if it is prebaked.

As far as pizza stones go, I find that even after preheating the stone for an hour that is still blocks the heat. My crusts do not brown as well or as quickly as when they are just on a rack.

[miladyinsanity]

Oh. I always parbake. I didn't know that you weren't supposed to parbake the bottom crust for double crust pies. I just thought what worked for single crust would work for double crust too.

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The main problem would be attaching the top crust to the bottom crust securely enough to prevent major leakage. Usually you would fold the top crust under the bottom crust and flute. Which you cannot do if it is prebaked.

As far as pizza stones go, I find that even after preheating the stone for an hour that is still blocks the heat. My crusts do not brown as well or as quickly as when they are just on a rack.

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Hmm... Leakage? It's not happened to me either.

I've never had issues with prebaking and then pouring in the filling and pressing the crust to seal on the edges.

That said, my pies aren't very pretty.

[andiesenji]

I really don't have a problem with fruit pies or double crust pies but I do use pie shields to keep the edges from browning too much. After I have transferred the dough to the pan I press the dough in the bottom of the pan so it is actually thinner than the sides.

However, when I prepare custard pies or pumpkin custard pies, I sprinkle granulated sugar on the bottom of the pie dough (I dock it before I transfer it to the pie plate as I have a roller-type docker) and then I carmelize it with a torch.

When I first learned to bake pies, almost sixty years ago, this was how I learned, only the sugar was carmelized with a hand-held salamander - the kind that was stuck right in the stove to heat until it was glowing (wood/coal range), later it was heated over a gas burner but the principle is the same.

The burnt sugar forms a hard shell that keeps the liquid custard from soaking into the dough.

[paulraphael]

As far as pizza stones go, I find that even after preheating the stone for an hour that is still blocks the heat. My crusts do not brown as well or as quickly as when they are just on a rack.

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Interesting. I've wondered about this. Have you tried preheating the oven with the stone to a much higher temp (500 or so) and then letting the air temp drop down to regular baking temp before putting the pie in?

Stones are an interesting variable because the retain a ton of heat (high thermal mass) but don't transfer the heat to the food as quickly as metal (low conductivity) and they they also block the convection that you'd get with food sitting on a rack. I think the biggest help for a pie crust would be a stone that's hotter than the ambient temperature of the oven.

By the way, the slow conductivity makes it highly unlikely that you'd break any kind of glass or ceramic bakeware by setting it on a hot stone. It won't cause a drastic temperature change like putting it under a broiler or quenching it in water.

Edited July 4, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

[Becca Porter]

Yes, that is the way I have tried it. I preheat it at about 500-550 degrees for an hour, that let the temp. drop back a little. It just never seems to work as well with it as without.

andiesenji, I love the caramelized sugar idea! Cook's Illustrated has a tomato tart that melts parm reg on the puff pastry first to seal it. Your way reminds me of that. It sounds delicious too.

[Lindacakes]

Just a public service announcement: blueberries are in season. I made a blueberry pie for a Fourth of July picnic yesterday. We actually fought over who was going to get what of the leftovers.

Hee hee.

I gave it a lattice top and it leaked, oddly, clear syrup. I always put my pies on a jelly roll pan lined with foil. I baked it on the bottom rack, nearest the bottom of the oven. I protect the edge from browning too much with a handmade foil shield -- I found the ones they sell are too heavy and flatten the edge of the pie.

In the end, I had to uncover it and brown it a little more before it was fully finished.

[plk]

By the way, the slow conductivity makes it highly unlikely that you'd break any kind of glass or ceramic bakeware by setting it on a hot stone. It won't cause a drastic temperature change like putting it under a broiler or quenching it in water.

I've had ceramic crack by placing it directly on a heated pizza stone. I don't worry about my Le Creuset baking dishes cracking, but I don't put anything I'm not sure about on there and definitely not anything handmade.

[David Ross]

Sorry you have had so much trouble with your pie crust. I use this basic recipe for pies and tarts and it never fails me. You may want to try it.

For pies I usually use a plain glass Pyrex pie dish. Sometimes I'll use my LeCreuset pie dish. If I am doing a 'free-form' type of tart I use a wooden pizza peel to move the tart from the kitchen directly onto a baking stone in the oven.

I never use any type of metal pie tin because it gets too hot too fast, resulting in a crust that bakes too quick while the insides of the pie are underdone.

2 cups all-purpose flour

½ cup cake flour

1 tbsp. superfine granulated sugar

1 tsp. salt

1 stick unsalted butter, chilled

½ cup Crisco shortening, chilled

1/3 cup ice water

The cake flour gives the pie dough an extra lift and flakiness.

I cut the butter and shortening in by hand using a pastry cutter. I never use a food processor for my pastry dough. The blade runs too fast, cutting the butter and shortening into little grains. When I cut the butter and shortening into the flour by hand I control the size of the butter and shortening. I cut it into the flour until it's the size of baby peas. That will let your butter and shortening melt into shards or layers as it bakes into the flour. That's what will give the finished pie crust that flakiness we like.

Add the ice water using a fork and add enough water to form a ball of dough. Wrap it in plastic and then let it chill in the refrigerator for about one hour. This will chill the butter back up which is important to the finished pie crust.

Then just roll out the dough before you use it. Works for me so I hope it helps you.

[Pontormo]

Having polished off a crumbly, moist serving of Dorie Greenspan's plum cake for breakfast, it's time to think about pie.*

I picked up In the Sweet Kitchen recently and was surprised by the recipe for pie crust. Regan Daley recommends using lard which delights me since I just rendered a batch. However, she also calls for an egg! to ensure tender, flaky results.

I bake desserts seldomly, so perhaps this is not news to seasoned pie people. I know pate sablée requires an egg, though I had to look up the name of this particular dough for tarts.

Does anyone else here incorporate eggs into pie crust for North American pies? If so, how would you compare the results to pastries made without them?

* * *

Edited to accommodate a narrower focus and to thank Rob for the helpful post that follows. Please feel free to add any comments regarding pie crust that you judge useful.

*Cf. topic devoted to Baking: From My Home to Yours.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Pontormo (log)

[gfron1]

A few useful topics:

How to Roll a Pie Crust

How to Make the Perfect Pie Crust DEMO

How to Make the Perfect Pie Crust

How to Use Lard in Pastries

Tools for Making Pie Crust

[jgm]

IMHO, getting a really good, flaky crust is less about recipe than about technique. The above-mentioned threads, if I remember correctly, have fairly exhaustive discussions. It's all about not allowing gluten to develop. That's done by keeping equipment and ingredients cold, and by doing only minimal handling once the liquid is added to the flour. I also suspect that if you're using butter, the minimal liquid in the butter provides enough liquid to promote gluten formation, so handling needs to be minimal the minute the butter and the flour are brought together. I always use shortening, but am thinking about experimenting with both butter and lard.

As for the egg, I think it's just more liquid -- egg, as opposed to water or milk. The yolk would add some nice color. But maybe there's more to it than that.

[paulraphael]

egg is traditional in some styles of tart dough. so is milk. i haven't personally tried etiher.

other things to keep in mind with technique (in addition to cold temps and minimal handling) are the sizes of the clumps of fat. small, uniform clumps result in a fine-grained, flaky/crumbly crust. completely blended fat results in a traditional crumbly tart crust. and uneven, varying sized clumps, with a lot of big ones, results in a traditional flaky pie crust.

the kind of fat you use is less important than the technique used to control the size and distribution of it. but butter is more challenging to work with (since it melts at lower temperatures). i think it's worth it to use butter for the flavor, though. either all butter or a 70/30 mix of butter and fresh-rendered animal fat (leaf lard, suet, goose fat, etc.). never supermarket lard, and never, ever shortening.

Edited September 4, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

[Nina C.]

This was a summer of pie. There were lattice-topped, double-crust and open, tarts and galettes, and even hand pies. And the summer's not technically over yet!

I kept trying to improve on perfection. I've always used a butter/shortening crust, but I worry about the chemical properties of the shortening, as well as the impact on mouthfeel. (Unfortunately many of my friends are vegetarian or don't eat pork products, so lard is out of the question except on rare occasions.)

I tried lots of different kinds of pastry recipes, working my way through both the canonical Ruth Levy Berenbaum's recipes and the scribbled-on-the-back-of-envelope recommendations from friends. (I must admit that I rejected out-of-hand any shortening only recipes.) Only one do I remember having egg in it, but it wasn't flaky enough. (I blame the liquid fat of the yolk.)

In the end, I'm back to my tried and true. It works how I expect it too, it gets rave reviews all around, and with the trans-fat-free shortenings I'm trying not to worry too much.

[etalanian]

Freshly-rendered lard is excellent, but not everyone has the time or inclination to make it.

I find that pie crusts made with European or European-style butters (and NO shortening) are flaky, tender, and easy to handle. The extra butter fat and lower moisture content in these butters makes a substantial difference over regular butter. I cannot abide the mouthfeel of shortening, and when I think about what it does to the body, I cannot bring myself to eat or use it.

Using a light touch is always beneficial when making pie crust.

Eileen

[Beanie]

I use an all-butter pie crust recipe that contains egg, water and vinegar as the liquid ingredient. The egg adds richness, the vinegar tenderizes the crust. I agree with paulraphael that the varying size of fat clumps, including large ones, is responsible for a flaky crust. It's hard to describe, but many of the clumps are much larger than "pea sized," which is the standard description in most recipes. I use a stand mixer with paddle attachment and add varying size pieces of frozen butter to the flour. Mix on slow speed. Every so often stop the mixer and stick your hand in the flour to check the size of the butter pieces; some will be very fine, like cornmeal, some will be pea size (1/4 inch or so), some will be larger (3/4 inch.) Add liquid and mix briefly until the paddle "grabs" the flour mixture into a big blob. I dump the blob on the counter in a piece of plastic film and bring it together in a sphere and flatten. I make large quantities and weight out portions, wrap in film, refrigerate or freeze.

[David Ross]

This is my recipe and I don't ever vary from it, no egg. I personally don't like the gumminess that I get with adding egg. I've tried substituting lard for the Crisco but I didn't like the heavier texture and flavor of lard so I stick to Crisco.

I never mix my pie crust by machine. Like others have said-it's a matter of technique-trying to get the right 'cut' if you will. In other words, you want the right size of clumps of fat (about the size of baby peas/butter and Crisco) so that the fat will melt into the flour during baking.

I cut the butter and Crisco into the flour using a pastry cutter that is probably over 100 years old. I want to be able to control the texture of the dough and I found that a food processor or a mixer doesn't give me as much control. I find that making pie crust dough in a food processor cuts the pieces of butter into basically grains of sand and that leaves me with a crust that falls apart after baking.

After I cut the butter and Crisco into the flour I add only enough ice water to form a ball of dough. So the 1/3 cup is only a basic guide, sometimes I use more ice water sometimes less.

I wrap the dough ball in plastic wrap and let it set in the refrigerator four about an hour. Then I roll it out or shape it into tart shells by hand. I try not to add too much flour when I roll the dough out because I don't want to change the texture of the finished pie crust by adding too much flour.

Here is a recent photo of the pie crust-tender, crisp yet light and flaky with a rich, buttery flavor. I added toasted hazelnuts to the dough. The filling is smoked cheddar pastry cream and poached apricots.

Pastry Crust (makes two 9" shells)

2 cups all-purpose flour

½ cup cake flour

1 tbsp. superfine granulated sugar

1 tsp. salt

1 stick unsalted butter, chilled

½ cup Crisco shortening, chilled

1/3 cup ice water

[paulraphael]

I find that pie crusts made with European or European-style butters (and NO shortening) are flaky, tender, and easy to handle. The extra butter fat and lower moisture content in these butters makes a substantial difference over regular butter. I cannot abide the mouthfeel of shortening, and when I think about what it does to the body, I cannot bring myself to eat or use it.

good point; the high fat butters make a big difference. in texture and also flavor.

[miladyinsanity]

My recipe uses yolks, vinegar and water or cream for the liquid. I use yolks because I need something to do with the yolks and cream whenever I have it left over from something else.

I think yolks provide better color and a different kind of richness that butter (never used lard before) alone cannot provide.

But as to flakiness, I don't know. My crusts are always flaky and I've never made pie crust the same way twice.

[Pontormo]

Thank you all for your contributions.

Etalanian, sound advice! If I'm using leaf lard, I ought to combine it with a superior butter, too. And David, glorious picture!!!

Since I've never baked with lard before, I think I'm just going to leave it out for now, but try it at a later date.* After all, I'm interested in how it compares to my early years with a Crisco-butter combination and more recent habit of using butter alone, sometimes with vinegar. I'm curious to discover if flavor will be an issue.

Eventually, I'll add the egg to see if it enhances the tenderness of the pastry. Mylady, interesting point!

*Nina, I appreciate the feedback. Haven't tried the new shortenings yet. There may be a separate topic on the matter, but here's what Kim Severson wrote before her move to The New York Times: "...New Crisco..." (SFG, May 26, 2004)