Urban Vs. Suburban Restaurant Food

[JerzyMade]

This discussion got me thinking that a restaurant needs a certain number of potential customers within a reasonable proximity. Of course, all area restaurants compete for these customers, so the higher the population density, the more restaurants can crop up. In areas with low population density you tend to get the Outbacks, Olive Gardens and other chains. As the number of possible restaurants increases, they tend to specialize, to avoid competing with the usual suspects. Also, urban centers like NY, SF, LA have a very diversified population, ethnically and financially, offering more opportunitities for specialization.

There are some interesting stats about people's spending habits at www.restaurant.org

[Carrot Top]

While I can 'see' and intellectually understand these extended urban area demographics...honestly I can not 'feel' them.

Yes, they are in proximity to cities, yes the people have money to spend and are professionals...BUT...the areas that have the urban hip 'feel' do move and grow, but they tend to do it within city limits or close enough to be sort of cuddling up to the city.

Hip urban areas grow, change, move...entire neighborhoods are created that are defined as hip and urban where other parts of cities just...are not. They are other things, but they do not have that 'edge'.

My take on it is that that edge is created by proximity to culture. To art, and I mean the Art World. To money, and I mean Big Bucks. To Fashion and Design...of the Haute variety.

That 'hip urban' feel is created by people who are living creative lives and pushing the limits of what has been presently 'acceptable' to date.

People are drawn to 'hip urban' from all over...because it is not the way they live their lives in general. People will pay to be around the creativity and the unconventionality. History tells this. They will come to be entertained, to see a living 'story' that is beyond the sort of life they might dare to live themselves.

It's gotta be 'punchy' and in-your-face to be 'hip urban', really.

[jbonne]

just quickly, on city versus metro region, the more useful data in considering suburban trends is usually the MSA, or metropolitan statistical area.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/metrodef.html

the 2000 list is here:

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t29/tab03a.xls

the metropolitan division, usually smaller, can also be helpful. though, i imagine, so can the Zagat divisions.

[Fat Guy]

Carrot Top, while I certainly agree with much of that sentiment, and while I favor cultural explanations over economic or demographic ones in most areas, I'm also swayed by the numbers: I just can't imagine that it's any coincidence that the urban-area population statistics and the rank-order of top restaurant cities in America are almost entirely lock-step, and that when they aren't lock-step there's a very good reason for it like Las Vegas's status as major tourism destination or New Orleans's uniquely rich local culinary tradition.

[Carrot Top]

Steven, I am in agreement with that too.

You need the numbers, the demographics. As Maybelline mentioned (and I really had to laugh at thinking of hearing this in what I guess might be her marvellous Southern drawl)...you need the Guidos.

Listen, I don't mean this in any insulting way to anyone, please. I've been both rich and poor and am half-WASP half Jewish and have been married to an Italian.

AND at the present moment I stay home and raise children. Nope, not in a hip urban area!

And as for the numbers hitting the New Orleans/ or Las Vegas areas...that is just a different form of culture, isn't it.

A different form of Art, of Money, of Fashion (ooh la la) and of Design.

But there still is that edge.

Not the New York edge, but an in your face edge nonetheless...

And it's that edge that must be captured in designing that sort of menu...IF that is truly what the client means when rapidly throwing out that phrase.

I must say this topic is almost as wonderful as religion or politics for a good debate!

Edited August 26, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[tisch]

Interesting thoughts on this subject.

I am certainly no food expert, but perhaps you could take some cues from the realm of urban design, meaning to design food that espouses the urban ideas of functionality, sustainability, walkability and equitability. New Urbanism promotes the concepts of an enviroment focused on the "human scale". Its hard to promote urban food if the setting does not conform to these concepts, which is to say that hopefully the location of the restaurant is pedestrian-friendly and with parking in the rear. When I think "suburban" the first thing I think of is a parking lot.

Viewing the issue through this prism, an "urban" eating experience, to me, is leaving the car at home, eating non-jumbo portions of carefully prepared food chosen from local, sustainable, organic farms. And I would want to feel welcome regardless of my degree of personal trendiness. And if we could draw the analogy one step further, New Urbanism tries to demonstrate that new design concepts are superior to revitalizing old cities and towns - so perhaps no rehashing of old classic dishes?

This is an interesting comment, as arts do tend to draw from each other and grow.

Can you give some examples of specific areas that are good examples of the 'New Urbanism'?

Are there any major names of architects/designers that create solely within this paradigm? (And if so, are any of them associated with 'name' restaurants?)

What is coming to my mind at the moment in terms of this is that place they built right outside Miami...naturally right now I can not remember the name of it...the copycat 'New York'. Would this place be considered New Urban or simply still a mall of sorts...

Just curious.

Some big names in New Urbanism are Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk, Peter Calthorpe, and Andres Duany . They design on a scale of the pedestrian and seek to promote a symbiotic relationship between urban development and public transportation. Its a move away from prescriptive planning, epitomized by putting a residential area here, light commercial over there, a park over here and industrial somewhere else. New designs focus on mixed use areas and take into account that more and more people work from home.

Probably the most famous example is Seaside, Florida. You'll find info about this community and others here:

Planned cities

There is also the massive redevelopment of Hamburg Harbour:

HafenCity, Hamburg Harbour

I'm Canadian, so I have to add one example from our native land:

Regent Park, Toronto

You'll find lots more on the net.

I'm a civil engineer and not an urban planner so I can't answer your query about architects and their association with restaurants. But I think there is a lot of merit to the idea. As Fat Guy has eloquently pointed out, no particular food item is inherently urban or suburban. To me, an urban dining has more to do with the whole experience and setting. And unfortunately, I am not familiar with the Miami development you refer to. Perhaps someone else here knows of it?

[chefdavidrusso]

I have to say that I never imagined my small question would spark this kind of discussion. God I love this group!!!

Anyway...a couple of random comments:

#1 - Reading about all the metropolitan areas and their expansions and swallowing of the suburbs, I can only think back to 1984 and William Gibson's Neuromancer and the Sprawl. For those who don't know, it was his premise that the entire area from Boston to Atlanta had become one giant city (BAMA - the Boston Atlanta Metropolitan Axis)

#2 - I also find it interesting that even in what one might consider the most hip and most urban of cities (that is to say, New York) that there are varying degrees of hipness and urbanity. No one could ever clain that the Upper West Side (or Upper East for that matter) has nearly the "hip quotient" of the East Village. And like tisch said, that can hold true for any of the arts, culinary or otherwise.

[Behemoth]

I don't think looking at population as a number is enough to explain a restaurant scene, you have to look at income, education and ethnic mix as well. For example, the town I currently live in has a population of 100,000. Urbana-Champaign (where I study) also has 100,000. We are both in the middle of corn fields, equally far away from Chicago. However, most of the people in U-C work for or study at the University of Illinois, wheareas most of the people in my "home"town work for an insurance company, or for a much smaller university. My town has 3 indian restaurants (our major ethnic minority, oddly enough), a bunch of "#1 WOK" type chinese places, two "fancy" places, one "hippy" place and a bunch of chains. In Urbana-Champaign we have 5 korean places on Green street alone. A bunch of indian, thai, vietnamese, bubble tea etc etc places, a bunch of nicer places including at least two affiliated with the slow foods movement. Several huge asian groceries, several middle eastern groceries and so on. Same number of people, totally different population.

Having recently made the move from the city to these very distant suburbs, I think urban/suburban generalizations are to a certain extent a myth. But where there is truth is that urban generally means lots of people, noise, friction, rapid spread of information, and with it, sophistication. Hence political and social engagement (on either side of the debate), being open to different cultures not in a naive "crab rangoon" way but in a well informed, first hand kind of way. Not seeing an unfamiliar situation necessarily as a bad thing. Urbana-Champaign fits that description a bit more, and I think you can see it reflected in the food. Similarly, in my town you would hardly ever run into another person on the street, and I think that is also reflected in the food.

Unfortunately, I think the one common trait that unites people who choose to live in this type of suburbs is pragmatism. This explains Wal-Mart, this explains vinyl siding, and this explains the massive portions at Applebees. But suburbs, like unhappy families, are not all alike. In Urbana people will order sushi, whereas people in this town by and large will not. You need to look around and see income levels, education, what has so far been successful, how far you can push the envelope in your particular suburb.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Behemoth (log)

[Carrot Top]

This explains Wal-Mart, this explains vinyl siding, and this explains the massive portions at Applebees.

Gosh, Behemoth...I was reading your post with such intent fascination and so quickly that for a minute I thought you wrote 'the massive portions of vinyl siding at Applebee's'...

[Kim WB]

someone upthread referenced fashion as an indicator of urban/suburban tastes, and I think that it is a good comparison...fashion relies on the "trickle down" effect...what you see on the runway translates to an avante garde stlye at Barney's, translates to a chic version in high end ready to wear, translates to Nordstoms' private label version, adapted once again for the Macy's version, and finally at the teen Mall store...before the bargain bins at the clearance store. So Alexander McQueen's cashmere and leather off shoulder gown becomes polyester and vinyl trendy belly shirts for pubescent girls...Andria's foam becomes WD's foam,becomes essence , becomes "scented cream"...and next thing you know, your local Friendly's is serving bluebberry and mint whipped cream...10 years ago tamarind would be a far out ingredient in anything other than an asain restaurant..now its at Chile's...So, to me, "suburban" restaurants are those that wait for the trend to trickle down to the point of acceptance. I think your client might be trying to indiate that she wants to be in the zone BEFORE this level of acceptance..a bit cutting edge, more adventurous ingredients and combinations.

On the other side, Fashion works on the "trickle up" effect as well..street fashion gets adapted for haute couture..(cargo pants, for example)...and this is when short ribs or flank steaks or other peasant ingredients get a makeover and four star treatment...

[tryska]

excellent post kimwb!

incidentally i think y'all might have taken me a little too literally when i said that chicago-land and the tristate area were too large.

(notice i didn't mention LA) that's because i find it too much of an Urban Sprawl city to count. I think large was probably the wrong word as well, because i didn't mean size, so much as i meant density per square mile of the "urban center"

for insteance - parts of Jersey can be seen as suburbs of NYC, but their still "city" in comparison to say, the suburbs of syracuse, population-wise.

And close suburbs of Chicagoland don't compare to the true outlying suburbs either.

even here in atlanta, i straddle that inner suburb/city line being literally right on the border. my area is fairly cosmopolitan for a suburb, but in no way compares to a suburb say 5 miles further out.

[jbonne]

I don't think looking at population as a number is enough to explain a restaurant scene, you have to look at income, education and ethnic mix as well.

no question. New Orleans was cited as an excellent example, and i think you could plausibly argue that SFO trumps LA in cuisine, despite being smaller. and up here in the northwest, Seattle and Portland hold their own despite being relatively small. all outgrowths of local tradition -- and often some really good sourcing of top-rate ingredients.

and let's not even start in on the Texas MSAs and their relative talents.

[wilewil]

You'll get a list that conforms more to your expectations if you use urban-area population, not city population as such. If you just look at city population, you give a major promotion to a city like Houston, which has defined so many of its suburbs as part of the city, and you demote DC and San Francisco, which have smaller city populations but are actually two of the five largest urban areas in the US.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/U...tropolitan-area

Yeah, Washington/Baltimore and Boston get serious elevations when you consider the entire metro areas as opposed to city center.

In the DC area, would you consider such places as Arlington (particularly Clarendon to Rosslyn), Alexandria, Silver Spring, Bethesda etc. suburban? I wouldn't. That said, some of the best ethnic meals in the area are even farther from the "city center" Bailey's Crossroads, Annandale, and Seven Corners come to mind right off.

The District is perhaps even more "suburban" than some of the places above in far NW or NE.

If you can tell where the Washington area and the Baltimore area divide, you are a better man than I. Commuters pass each other every day.

[ghostrider]

#1 - Reading about all the metropolitan areas and their expansions and swallowing of the suburbs, I can only think back to 1984 and William Gibson's Neuromancer and the Sprawl. For those who don't know, it was his premise that the entire area from Boston to Atlanta had become one giant city (BAMA - the Boston Atlanta Metropolitan Axis)

Which I'm pretty sure is a concept that Gibson pilfered from something Philip K. Dick wrote 20 or 30 years earlier. Sorry I can't cite the specific reference.

Gibson is great too & I'm going OT here so I'll stop.

[chefdavidrusso]

#1 - Reading about all the metropolitan areas and their expansions and swallowing of the suburbs, I can only think back to 1984 and William Gibson's Neuromancer and the Sprawl.  For those who don't know, it was his premise that the entire area from Boston to Atlanta had become one giant city (BAMA - the Boston Atlanta Metropolitan Axis)

Which I'm pretty sure is a concept that Gibson pilfered from something Philip K. Dick wrote 20 or 30 years earlier. Sorry I can't cite the specific reference.

Gibson is great too & I'm going OT here so I'll stop.

Yes. I think he was most heavily influenced by "Do Androids Dream of electric Sheep", which became the film "Bladerunner". I'm sure he was quite familiar with most of Dick's works.

Not to get too far off my own topic....

[Carrot Top]

I'm curious...a bit of time has passed, and I wonder if you got an answer from the client as to what her idea of 'hip/urban' vs. 'suburban' food really was...?

Also curious as to how you are shaping the menu to meet those expectations, if you've gotten that far yet.

It sounds like a fun though possibly frustrating project!

[Cusina]

I'm curious too. I've come in late on this thread, but I'm thinking that my brother in law is the quintessential hip urbanite your client is talking about. He lives in Chicago (recent Atlanta transplant), doesn't even own a car, is 29, makes plenty of $, eats out 5-7 nights per week, sometimes on his own or with a buddy, sometimes with a date.

He wants someplace casual and comfortable, nice with tablecloths but not too femminine, not too loud, but definitely not low light intimate, vivaldi on the speakers either. A wide variety on the menu. He likes both comfort food and some more adventurous things and it needs to be at least somewhat health concious as he doesn't really cook for himself much. Preferably someplace he could go to and get a table without too much of a wait and where the service is friendly, but not too gregarious or intrusive. A full bar with a good top shelf selection is an absolute must. He actually doesn't mind large portions because he can take them home and have them the next day. Actual food in his fridge rather than being entirely stocked with condiments, beer and mixers.

I wonder if the client, in thinking of the suburban generalization, actually meant family oriented. Perhaps they want a place more geared to adults? No chicken fingers on the children's menu, in fact no children's menu at all. I think many people move to the suburbs for the better schools and the play space in the Chicago area and so the restaurants there often cater to families. Just a thought.

[chefdavidrusso]

No...actually I haven't talked to the client recently. She was on vacation for a couple of weeks, and then I was. And as a matter of fact I am going to email her today. I think I've gotten a handle on what she's looking for, and have come up with some options that she'll be happy with.

Unfortunately, I can't really go into in much more detail at the moment (non-disclosure and all that). Perhaps it will all make a bit more sense when I can tell you everything about it....

[Busboy]

Granting that there are good restaurants in the suburbs and bad restaurants downtown, I'd suggest that the dividing line between the two styles -- for purposes of this discussion -- is the spirit of confidence and innovation that seem to define good urban cooking, and the tendancy to focus-group, smooth over and play all-things-to-all-people in suburban dining.

The best urban dining seems to be personality driven, distinctive and experimental (or at least new to the area), put out with the idea that there are enough people searching for new experiences, cheap thrills, innovative cooking or just the comfort of being part of the trend, that a "different" kind of restaurant can survive.

The standard suburban dining is corporate driven -- even the non-chains offer the same dishes and preparations as the chains -- and fear that if even one member of the family thinks the menu is too exotic or the blackened chicken salad too spicy, no one's coming back.

It's not just the food, it's the attitude, the willingness to take a chance and walk that "fine line between clever and stupid," that separates the two approaches.

[kellycolorado]

I just found this thread and would love to hear an update!

[joey madison]

Isn't the perception of urban vs. suburban dining really the perceived difference between real and fake? Right or wrong, when people think of suburban, the think of the bleary sameness of subdivisions and shopping malls, whose parking moats are dotted with Outbacks, Chilli's, Applebee's and the like. Sure, there are great restaurants to be found in the burb's... there are several excellent thai and vietnamese joints in Madison's burbs that I visit frequently. But at the same time, the structure of American suburban development in undeniably similar across the country. You can find the same sprawl outside of Chicago as you can Seattle or Boston or (presumably) Austin. In it's popular usage, when people say suburban in terms of food, they really mean fake... formula... somehow surreal, not real.

When people say urban dining, they mean real dining. Sure, you can find TGI Fridays in a lot of urban centers. But when people say urban, they mean a dining establishment that has an owner they could meet. A guy who came up with his own idea. A cook or waiter who might live down the street from you or might even be a friend or acquaintence. They mean unique, individual, different, something not formulated in a corporate office a thousand miles away and replicated a thousand times.

Ironically, I think a lot of rural places have many of the same qualities as urban, in its popular usage, especially in small resort towns.

[chefdavidrusso]

Ok...here's the situation so far:

I am finally in a position where I can release some of the details of the project, becasue I have in fact been given the job for which I was designing these menus. They are for a new avocational, community cooking school that is opening in Manhattan, hopefully sooner rather than later. I am going to be the Exec Chef/Director of Culinary Operations/whatever. The mandate from the woman who is opening the school was to design menus for the classes that reflect an urban sensibility in terms of cuisines, ingredients, and techniques. Obviously we don't have to set the trends - rather we just need to be aprised of them and keep current with them.

Perhaps that in and of itself is "suburban"...I don't know.

That being said, the trick is to also design menus that appeal to a wide range of ability levels - menus that won't overwhelm the novice, but will keep the interest of an advanced home cook.

There are many other aspects to this cooking school which I won't go into here, so as to keep the discusion on-topic. But if anyone is interested in knowing more, you can feel free to PM me. And I will certainly make some announcement of it's opening whenever that happens (to whatever extent I am allowed to on the site).

So back to the main discussion....as I said, in one of her emails to me she wrote of designing menus that "were not too suburban", and I opened this thread to try to help clarify exactly what that meant. I had my ideas, but I was interested to know what others out there thought.

I liked Busboys comments a couple of posts back...howvere i am reminded of an article in the NYT food section that came out a couple of weeks ago. It noted that most of the restaurants around hte city were doing not-so-different riffs on alot of the same ingredients or dishes. I summarise the examples by saying that one restaurant may serve Basil-Scented Ahi Tuna with Morel Mushroom Risotto and be called mediterranean, while another restaurant would serve Cardamom-crusted Ahi Tuna with Coconut Risotto and be called "Sub-Continental".

So much for innovation and creativity.

But anyway...that's where things stand for now