Soul Food: escaping its bonds in the South

[fierydrunk]

True--look at the variation in Chinese, Mexican and Thai restaurants! It is all about the cooks/owners...

If it hasn't been said before, Southern/Soul (similar but not the same) food is trendy & exoticized. If I had a dollar for every hipster in Portland who licks their lips like some racist 1950's cartoon while discussing catfish and BBQ, I'd be a rich old bitter chick!

[Gifted Gourmet]

very cool article from MSNBC

In an article titled Cuisine invented by slaves is fueling some of the hottest restaurants in the nation

there was something highly relevant to the topic of this particular thread which I wanted to share with you:

Many traditional Southern recipes arose from dishes created by slaves using plantation castoffs, wild plants and rations of cornmeal, mixed with imported African crops such as okra. In the past 20 years, posh restaurants in America's biggest cities have started serving old favorites with choice ingredients and new twists, such as substituting smoked turkey breast for ham hocks in collard greens.

Among the first was Jezebel, in the Hell's Kitchen section of New York City, where owner and chef Alberta Wright has been serving highbrow down-home cooking since 1983.

Have you tried any of the type of restaurant mentioned in this article?

If so, what was your impression of the food?

Authentic? Pale imitation of the original?

[phaelon56]

Have you tried any of the type of restaurant mentioned in this article?

If so, what was your impression of the food?

Authentic? Pale imitation of the original?

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Yes I have. I've eaten at Soul Cafe in NYC (42nd Street just west of 9th Ave) on two occasions. Once with a Jamaican friend who's a good cook and knows food, the other time with an African-American friend who spent part of her formative years in the south (but she is far less discerning than many here when it comes to nuances of food quality).

The food at Soul Cafe was good but I couldn't get past the feeling that it was a tad overpriced simply because of ambiance. $5 for a a side of mac 'n cheese or a side of collard greens and $20 for fried chicken? That's steep (the chicken comes with rice or yams but collards or mac 'n cheese have to be ordered separately. In terms of overall food quality and authenticity I thought Soul Cafe did a good job. My dining companion declared it to be "okay but not all that".

My other experience is also in NYC - Maroons on West 17th (or 16th?) in Chelsea. They have a menu that is mixed - some Jamaican food and some Southern/Soul food. It's consistently good and my meal was IMHO a good value. A bit less pricey than Soul cafe, more intimate and really well prepared food. My dining companion on that occasion was another Jamaican friend who was very pleased with her seviche style warm fish entrée but was disappointed by the collaloo. Outside of Jamaica collaloo is general prepared from frozen or canned material. Maroon's was a fresh green. I liked the hint of bitterness and the manner in which it was prepared (done sort of like wilted spinach) but my friend insisted that "whatever it is it's not real collaloo". She lived in Jamaica until she was `18 and they grew most of their own vegetables at home - it's quite possible that terroir issues or plant variations cause US grown fresh collaloo to taste different than the stuff back home.

I wouldn't rush back to visit Soul Cafe - it's okay but not my style. Maroons is a different story - I will always go there for a meal when I'm in NYC and have a the time and $$ - it's my kind of place.

[maf]

Oddly, most of the women who were raised in the early half of the century that I knew could cook very, very well, but they couldn't make candy for love or money. On the other hand, the ones that couldn't cook were great at sweets. I have no clue why that is, but I can think of a number of examples.

Not just candy- it seems unusual to find someone who is a good baker and a good cook (in the non-baking sense) as well. I think it has to do with measuring and willingness to follow directions, which are essential to baking but not other types of cooking.

[Painting]

i didn't read this thread (to many posts about pralines, it scares me) but when I was painting a old hotel in Oakland a few years ago, there was a soul food place nearby. It was my first time being introduced to "soul food" as a commercial product.

Honestly, i don't see the big deal, i guess it's our version of "home cooking" in japan.

[phaelon56]

I think it's a "big deal" in a sense to any number of us who didn't grow up eating it. Yes it is "home cooking" here as well but with the exception of Southerners who migrated north and cooked it at home or the small neighborhood places, typically in African-American neighborhoods or communities, it was rarely found outside of the South. With fresh ingredients and proper care taken in its preparation it can truly be a revelation to some of us who didn't experience it until adulthood (count me as being among that group). With an increased focus on and awareness of indigenous "American" cooking (accepting that there are many outside influences in Southern and Soul food cooking, e.g. Africa and the Caribbean), many are recognizing its character.

The fact that it's now being elevated in some respects by being served in more upscale restaurants (i.e. white tablecloth type establishments rather than neighborhood joints or more informal settings) begs the question of whether the food maintains its character and authenticity. I've had better fried chicken for $10 with two sides in a simple restaurant than I had at the Soul Cafe for $25 with two sides. I was paying for atmosphere, panache (which this place has plenty of) and a Manhattan address.

I'm curious as to whether simply transporting this cuisine to a fancier setting has more than fad appeal to a long term paying market. But I'm far more interested in the possibility of hearing about and trying places where Southern/Soul food cooking serves as the jumping off point for an inventive and intelligent twist that might offer a new cuisine. Maroon's, which I mentioned earlier in this thread, does a little bit of that but not much. For those of you who don't check in on the Washington DC/Maryland area forum, I suggest checking out the comments and descriptions of the food at the recent eGullet dinner at DC's Colorado Kitchen. What they're doing sounds to me very much like the evolution that I'm thinking of: traditional Southern or Soul food dishes but with some updates and variations that truly lend it a character of its own. I'd like to know who else is doing that sort of thing and where.

[Jaymes]

The fact that it's now being elevated in some respects by being served in more upscale restaurants (i.e.  white tablecloth type establishments rather than neighborhood joints or more informal settings) begs the question of whether the food maintains its character and authenticity. 

I'm curious as to whether simply transporting this cuisine to a fancier setting has more than fad appeal to a long term paying market.

In my experience, 'Southern Food' being served in white tablecloth restaurants is most definitely not a new phenomenon.

As someone else here stated, Soul Food, and Southern Food, may overlap but they are not necessarily the same.

And for me, that point is made quite sharply in my own mind by the fact that I grew up in the 40's, 50's, 60's eating what is now called 'Southern Food' (but in our world was just 'food') in fancy, white tablecloth restaurants. It was served in a gracious, stately, courtly manner, in nice places, sometimes the 'country club,' sometimes in restored and converted old plantations or Victorian houses, perhaps out on the verandah in pleasant weather, and we children had to get all dressed up and mind our manners, so we'd often go to this type of restaurant for Sunday supper, right after church. PC or not, these restaurants usually were staffed by elegant and dignified black gentlemen, impeccably groomed in either white or red jackets and black bowties, career waiters, who were very kind to us kids. An old mansion in Montgomery, Alabama, comes immediately to mind. We were never allowed to order fried chicken and my parents didn't either because we were at a 'nice' restaurant and no one knew how to eat it without using your fingers, which wouldn't be proper at that sort of place. But we did order things like sliced country ham with raisin or pineapple sauce and fried catfish with dirty rice and stuffed pork chops with cornbread dressing and several kinds of greens and other vegetables cooked with plenty of butter and a pinch of sugar and bits of bacon and corn pudding and fruit ambrosia salad and buttermilk biscuits and cornbread with honey and sweet potato and pecan pies and peach and blackberry cobblers with ice cream. And to drink there was iced tea with a sprig of fresh mint or iced coffee for Mom & Dad and lemonade or Shirley Temples for the kids.

I'm not familiar with any 'Soul Food' places like that at all, then or now. I believe that it's because the largely African-American servant class of the old south didn't get the 'high on the hog' stuff. So while we were having the stuffed pork chops, they were stewing up the ham hocks.

And as far as eating out went, while we were dining in nice Southern Food 'restaurants,' they were down in 'colored town' eating in BBQ and Soul Food (although it wasn't called that then) 'joints.'

Fair or not, and it clearly was not, that's the way it was, as I recall it.

And while I obviously have no way of predicting the future, in so far as the past goes, I do not personally believe that serving Southern Food in such upscale, gentrified surroundings (in the South, anyway) jeopardized "its character and authenticity" one little bit. If anything, I'd say it enhanced and preserved it.

Edited September 13, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[phaelon56]

Your points are well stated Jaymes. My perspective is very uninformed as I'm a native of the Northeast and although I've traveled extensively in the US, it's only in the past couple years that I've ventured south (I think Florida doesn't really count as "the South" in this context. I suppose my interest could best be described as targeted at the phenomenon that was posited at the beginning of this thread - most specifically about the nature of peoples experience's at upscale restaurants outside the South, where this cuisine is now appearing in upscale establishments (and it is indeed a relatively new phenomenon for places in the Northeast and Midwest). This thread actually started in General Food discussion and perhaps might garner some good feedback if we can split it and get some discussion going there. It is in fact about some issues with Southern/Soul food outside, not inside, the South.

[Jaymes]

It is in fact about some issues with Southern/Soul food outside, not inside, the South.

And in that, I'm not particularly well versed. I haven't sought out the Soul/Southern food restaurants elsewhere, since this does seem to be, as you state, a relatively new 'thing' up north, and since for the last ten years I've been living in Texas where it's just called 'home cooking' and it's available everywhere. Most notably, I guess, in the many cafeterias across the south.

It WILL, as you say, be interesting to see what happens to it now that it's traveling.

Oh, and PS. I haven't lived in Florida in some years, but I can assure you that when I did, the first thing I discovered much to my surprise was that CENTRAL Florida, the interior, DEFINITELY counted as 'the south.' It was just like living in Georgia. And while I'm sure that Disney has had considerable effect on the Orlando area, I'll bet that most of interior/central Florida is STILL 'the south.' Y'all.

Edited September 13, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[Chris Amirault]

So, herein lies my question, which you knew I would get around to sometime soon, what is it that is driving this "soul food trend" that we are seeing today?

Is your city experiencing something similar? If so, please offer us some insight and information. Who has this type of food there?

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I wanted to chime in with reports from two northeastern cities, Providence RI and Waterville ME, both of which have opened black-owned southern home cooking restaurants of note in the last few years.

Here in Providence, at 242 Broad Street (near Classical HS), is Miss Fannie's Soul Food Kitchen, a large storefront home of Alabama cookery, the likes of which we don't have much here in our little city. And if you're ever in the very, very white small town of Waterville ME (home of Colby College, the nearly dead central Maine paper industry, and my mom's family), make a bee-line for the Freedom Café, serving N'Orleans-style food in the capacious lower level of 18 Silver Street.

The cuisines are slightly different in each -- Miss Fannie's is more soul food, with fried chicken every day and rotating other entrees; Freedom Café offers a cajun-tinged array of bayou home cooking but with some other pan-southern staples too -- but share a lot of similarities, including the best collards that I've ever had the good fortune to put in my mouth. They each also cook a set amount of food during the early part of the day, and then they sell until it's sold, closing up when they run out.

Finally, both play an explicit role as a community center of sorts, focused on good food, conversation, and friendly company. In that way, they seem to exemplify in a very sincere and significant way something important about southern cooking that happens all too rarely here in the northeast.

[Gifted Gourmet]

I wanted to chime in with reports from two northeastern cities, Providence RI and Waterville ME, both of which have opened black-owned southern home cooking restaurants of note in the last few years.

Finally, both play an explicit role as a community center of sorts, focused on good food, conversation, and friendly company. In that way, they seem to exemplify in a very sincere and significant way something important about southern cooking that happens all too rarely here in the northeast.

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Many thanks to answering the main thrust of my initial question about what has moved southern foods outside of the Southeast Region .. that was what I had hoped for and you hit the proverbial nail right on the head! My appreciation to you and everyone who has offered their opinions on this thread ...

[phaelon56]

A few things I forgot to mention.... both Justin's (P Diddy's place in the Flatiron district of NYC) and The Shark Bar (west side of NYC at the upper end of Midtown if I recall correctly) fit the category of upscale restaurants featuring Southern/Soul food oriented cuisine but both appear to succeed mostly because they're "scene" places for a primarily black urban profesional clientele - it's not reaally about the food. I've never heard raves (or pans for that matter) of the food at either place.

Here in Syracuse our market in general , especially the black urban professional segment, is far smaller and typically has less discretionary income than the larger metro areas. We did have some folks from nearby Utica who opened a white tablecloth style upscale Soul food place called the House of Soul. Many cognizant people in the community, both black and white, made an effort to patronize this place and show support because they believed on the value of the concept and wanted to see it succeed. Sadly, it flopped and lasted less than a year but it was because of mediocre food quality. An acquaintance of mine expressed it succinctly: " Don't charge me $18 for fried chicken with greens and give me burnt chicken and frozen greens - the food had better be as good as what I can make at home or I ain't showin' up.". And he didn't. And I didn't return after one visit either. Not to mention that the service sucked.

[Carrot Top]

And if you're ever in the very, very white small town of Waterville ME (home of Colby College, the nearly dead central Maine paper industry, and my mom's family), make a bee-line for the Freedom Café, serving N'Orleans-style food in the capacious lower level of 18 Silver Street.

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Now here's a coincidence.

Here you have two northerners reading of Southern/Soul Cooking on eGullet.

And guess what...my mom's family is from yep, Waterville ME too.

Her grandfather carved the words that say 'PVBLIC LIBRARY' on the library downtown.

Haven't been to Waterville lately but for quick summer trips and then, I definitely did not think to explore the restaurant options! Lobster, you know...strawberry shortcake....veggies from the garden and berries from the woods down at the cabin on the lake....

Soul Food? Soul Food? Waterville, ME? Jeez, I really must pinch myself to see if I am dreaming.

I still remember my mother's stories about the first PIZZA parlor that came to Waterville, ME and the exotica of it all!

[Chris Amirault]

Now here's a coincidence.

Here you have two northerners reading of Southern/Soul Cooking on eGullet.

And guess what...my mom's family is from  yep, Waterville ME too.

Soul Food? Soul Food? Waterville, ME? Jeez, I really must pinch myself to see if I am dreaming.

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You I kid not. And, as a serious fan of collards, I can tell you that the collards at Freedom Cafe are ethereal.

In Waterville ME. Which, even with the Freedom Cafe, is still not a culinary destination -- at least, in my humble opinion.

As for our moms, how very strange!! Tell her a Timoney says hi.

[robyn]

In my experience, 'Southern Food' being served in white tablecloth restaurants is most definitely not a new phenomenon...

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We find places like that from time to time (when we're in the mood for them) - places that have been there forever. A Sunday "brunch" at Pine Needles resort near Pinehurst North Carolina comes to mind. And there's a little chain in Florida called Holiday House. Most of the places are dumps - but the original location in Deland is quite nice (the food is served cafeteria style except for dessert but it's "white tablecloth"). Of course - a lot of the country clubs are still around....Robyn

[robyn]

A few things I forgot to mention....  both Justin's (P Diddy's place in the Flatiron district of NYC) and The Shark Bar (west side of NYC at the upper end of Midtown if I recall correctly) fit the category of upscale restaurants featuring Southern/Soul food oriented cuisine but both appear to succeed mostly because they're "scene" places for a primarily black urban profesional clientele - it's not reaally about the food. I've never heard raves (or pans for that matter) of the food at either place.

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We went to a place in Beverly Hills a few years ago that was like that - Reign (owned by a famous athlete whose name I've forgotten ). Don't know if it's still there. The food was pleasant (decent but overpriced fried chicken with the fixings) - but it was basically a "scene" restaurant (beautiful restaurant and beautiful people). It was great fun. I don't think I've ever seen so many buff good looking (straight) guys and beautiful women in one place at one time before. I think the reason you don't hear much about the food at places like this is people (including me) are using all of their energy to "people watch". Robyn

[joiei]

To add to Jaymes Florida and old south, I grew up in the panhandle and from Pensacola to Jacksonville, it is very deep south. My mother's family moved to northwest Florida prior to the original statehood. I have a map that gives population counts in 1898. there was a sizable population in central Florida around the Orlando area at that time. And we never ordered fried chicken when dining out because of the how do you eat it question. But there were restaurants in Pensacola where one never stepped in the door without being properly dressed. Of course, I also remember when one dressed to fly or take the train. You just did not travel in anything but your sunday best. And that takes us to dining in airplanes back when they had real china in coach. My goodness, I have really gone off target. Sorry.

[Dignan]

To add to Jaymes Florida and old south,  I grew up in the panhandle and from Pensacola to Jacksonville, it is very deep south.  My mother's family moved to northwest Florida prior to the original statehood.  I have a map that gives population counts in 1898.  there was a sizable population in central Florida around the Orlando area at that time.  And we never ordered fried chicken when dining out because of the how do you eat it question.  But there were restaurants in Pensacola where one never stepped in the door without being properly dressed.  Of course, I also remember when one dressed to fly or take the train.  You just did not travel in anything but your sunday best.  And that takes us to dining in airplanes back when they had real china in coach.  My goodness, I have really gone off target.  Sorry.

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I can remember the same thing about restaurants and travelling. My family always dressed like it was a special occasion to do either. I was told that it was because you didn't know who you might meet, and whether you would ever see them again, and therefore you wanted to make a good impression.

[Gifted Gourmet]

My parents did the exact same thing for the very same rationale as yours, Dignan. Those days are long past, I rather imagine.

We even wore a hat and gloves to eat at a downtown restaurant and it was not always a fancy one. I grew up in Orlando, Florida, and we often ate at the local cafeteria, Morrison's. Anyone in the SE recall that chain?

[phaelon56]

My family always dressed like it was a special occasion to do either.

The only traveling we did was by car but I can recal my mother fussing over what to wear onyt he one occasion she had to fly somewhere back in the mid `1960's.

Getting dressed up to go out to dinner was a given as it's something we did only a couple times each year and even then it was not at what I'd call upscale restaurants. But we got dressed up anyway because eating out anywhere was indeed a special occasion.

[Jaymes]

I guess I'd agree with whoever it was that said this thread might have gotten more pertinent information had it not been relocated to the Southeast forum.

But I chose to add my recollections about growing up in the South and eating "Southern Food" in nice restaurants because, although the fact that this type of cuisine seems to be moving northward is new, eating it in white tablecloth restaurants is not.

For whatever that's worth, and however germane it is to the overall query.

Edited September 14, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

Oh, and PS.  I haven't lived in Florida in some years, but I can assure you that when I did, the first thing I discovered much to my surprise was that CENTRAL Florida, the interior, DEFINITELY counted as 'the south.'  It was just like living in Georgia.  And while I'm sure that Disney has had considerable effect on the Orlando area, I'll bet that most of interior/central Florida is STILL 'the south.'  Y'all.

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Jaymes, I had to share this as a result of your post on Florida food ....article on what the real Florida is all about

  While so much of the Sunshine State has been overdeveloped and overpopulated, the north central portion, which covers almost seven thousand square miles, remains probably like it has always been. One observer said it is “what the earth looked like in the beginning.

I lived in Orlando pre-Disney and the food was very simple in restaurants ... the cafeterias and a few fairly "nice" places which served American mainstream food ... but there was a place on Orlando's Orange Blossom Trail called Gary's Duck Inn which had amazing shrimp! Orlando has changed a great deal since I lived there!

[Jaymes]

I lived in Orlando pre-Disney and the food was very simple in restaurants ... the cafeterias and a few fairly "nice" places which served American mainstream food ... but there was a place on Orlando's Orange Blossom Trail called Gary's Duck Inn which had amazing shrimp!

Hey, me too! I was a DJ for WHOO radio - "Cool Chris"

As for the food, the main thing I remember was that most of the shrimp served in restaurants was either "frahd" or "U-Peel-M."

Edited September 14, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[AmbrosiaFood]

As someone else here stated, Soul Food, and Southern Food, may overlap but they are not necessarily the same.

--This is very true, Soul Food and Southern cooking are not the same, Soul Food is the origin of Southern cooking like the Blues are the origins of Rock and Roll, but they are not the same music--

I'm not familiar with any 'Soul Food' places like that at all, then or now.  I believe that it's because the largely African-American servant class of the old south didn't get the 'high on the hog' stuff.  So while we were having the stuffed pork chops, they were stewing up the ham hocks. 

--True, thus the basis of Soul food--

And as far as eating out went, while we were dining in nice Southern Food 'restaurants,' they were down in 'colored town' eating in BBQ and Soul Food (although it wasn't called that then) 'joints.' 

Fair or not, and it clearly was not, that's the way it was, as I recall it.

--Again, very true!--

And while I obviously have no way of predicting the future, in so far as the past goes, I do not personally believe that serving Southern Food in such upscale, gentrified surroundings (in the South, anyway) jeopardized "its character and authenticity" one little bit.  If anything, I'd say it enhanced and preserved it.

←

I think it could more rightly be said that Southern Food is escaping it's bonds rather than Soul Food. There are few "Soul Food" restaurants that are serving real soul food -- they serve food that is more palatable to the majority in order to meet their bottom line. Thus, the food is less authentic, and more Southern Cooking than soul food, as most african americans see it.