Blood, or meat juice?

[Rebel Rose]

A comment in the "sending restaurant food back" thread made we wonder . . .

My mother considers anything underdone that isn't cooked to death. Her chicken is solid white, even next to the bone. Steaks are grey and fibrous. She's even been known to take Dad's grass fed beef and pound it into wienerschnitzel and fry it. (Dad stopped that practice awhile ago.)

My DA (domestic associate) and I grill often, and we usually take the meat off while the juices are still running pink, then set it aside under foil and kitchen towels to finish warming through. We like our meat juicy, with tender flesh, but hot all the way through.

Do other people consider red juice to be "blood"? I'm just asking because we entertain so often (this coming weekend is a big one) and I want to be sensitive to how others like their meat.

[NulloModo]

I always cook chicken rather thoroughly, perhaps to the point of overdone. I don't care for many white fish (at least not the preparations I have sampled) so I usually stick woth Salmon or Tuna steaks, which are OK to serve a little more rare, which is how I like them. Shellfish I am still experimenting with, trying to find that magical place between dry and worn out, and raw. I have to say I think I did my scallops about perfectly with regard to doneness.

With beef however, the rarer the better. Brown crusty exterior with a nice red juicy, sometimes practically raw, interior. Sure there is some blood in there I guess, but also a lot of juices, and hey, it is tasty. When I cook beef for others I generally survey the group about how they like it, and cook it on the rare side of what I come back with, after all, if you want it done more, you can toss your portion back in for a bit, but you can't uncook meat.

[jhlurie]

I'm thinking it's a combination of blood, water and marinade (if used) and we just call them "juices" to make our essentially carnivorous nature seem a bit more civilized.

[Gifted Gourmet]

I love my beef crusty outside and quivering, pulsating, throbbing purplish-red inside ...

and, although I have been rebuked on numerous occasions by my dining companions, I have yet to suffer any ill effects from choosing this option with beef ...really enjoy carpacchio of beef and beef tartare for the self same reasons ... don't the French refer to this as "bleu"???

Edited May 9, 2004 by Gifted Gourmet (log)

[Pickles]

When the steak gets up and goes across the plate and eats my corn...it's too rare.

[John Whiting]

The French word for ultra-rare beef -- bleu -- says it neatly. When the interior is still virtually raw, it has a bluish cast to it. Since one of the classic ways of serving steak is tartare; i.e. entirely raw; any degree of doneness whatsoever is permissible if that's the way you like it. With other meats, and with fish, you arrive at your own balance of risk and pleasure.

There is a fashion for serving game birds at a degree of rareness that makes the legs virtually impossible either to cut or to eat. That, for me, is a chew too far -- "rare" is for pleasure, not religion.

[balmagowry]

I love my beef crusty outside and quivering, pulsating, throbbing purplish-red inside ...

and, although I have been rebuked on numerous occasions by my dining companions, I have yet to suffer any ill effects from choosing this option with beef ...really enjoy carpacchio of beef and beef tartare for the self same reasons ... don't the French refer to this as "bleu"???

Well, no. Carpaccio and tartare are what the French would refer to as "cru"!

[auntdot]

I'm thinking it's a combination of blood, water and marinade (if used) and we just call them "juices" to make our essentially carnivorous nature seem a bit more civilized.

Agree, the red juices are just hemolyzed red blood cells, perhaps a bit of myoglobin, fluids that exude from the meat, and any added fluids (marinades for example).

To me, rare means with a little care, it could recover.

Cooked on the outside and essentially raw, but at least room temperature, on the inside.

But then again, I also love carpaccio, steak tartare, and in Middle Eastern restaurants, raw kibbe (lamb).

Not too long ago we went to a moderately-to-expensively priced restaurant owned by a well known actor, highly touted.

We both ordered the carpaccio and pork tenderloin (nothing else on the menu looked interesting at all).

The carpaccio was deli roast beef with oil and sliced parm and the tenderloin needed a saw to get through.

Even my mom, many years ago, when everyone was worried that any pink in pork would result in an immediate agonizing death, would never have cooked the pork that overdone.

The less cooked the meat, in general, the better the taste.

Just wish someone would teach chefs what the word rare means.

[Bicycle Lee]

chicken should always be 165 for white meat and slightly higher for dark...I don't fuck with that simply because chicken is so damned dirty...

but with beef, I feel that if the flesh is still holding onto its juice and is cool to the touch in the center, then it is too rare. I worked at a place that served tenderloin that was 14 bucks a pound (our cost) and this one woman kept sending it back saying that it wasn't rare enough. I know that good beef should be able to be served below 125 in the center, but when you are playing with people's health no steak should go out below that temp...it just isn't "safe"...

[Pickles]

no steak should go out below that temp...it just isn't "safe"...

I can't really agree with that totally. If you're talking about e coli contamination, that usually happens in rare ground beef. The outside of a steak has been seared or cooked long enough to kill any bugs. The bacteria really can't infiltrate the inner portion of the steak. As for any other bugs, I can't really say. But cooking a steak to the same recommended internal temp of 160-165 for ground beef (killing e coli, etc.) would surely ruin it. I don't like eating luggage.

Edited May 9, 2004 by Pickles (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

To me, rare means with a little care, it could recover.

Perfect!! Thanks for this!!

[Moopheus]

Agree, the red juices are just hemolyzed red blood cells, perhaps a bit of myoglobin, fluids that exude from the meat, and any added fluids (marinades for example).

Most slaughtered animals are bled pretty thoroughly before packing; the red coloring comes mostly from the myoglobin.

[Verjuice]

But then again, I also love carpaccio, steak tartare, and in Middle Eastern restaurants, raw kibbe (lamb).

I remember inhaling huge quantities of raw kibbeh as a child. One summer in the States, I mentioned to a camp counselor, who was asking about what sorts of foods my Middle Eastern family ate, that one of my favorite foods was raw ground meat. My mother was called and questioned. I quickly learned that the "no rare is too rare" approach doesn't work for everyone.

When I moved to the States to begin college, I saw a tray containing 200 uniform chalk-white chicken breasts in the dining hall my very first day. I was so disgusted by the sight of their petrified lifelessness with no hint, no indication that the meat ever came off of a bone or from a live animal for that matter (or, more disturbingly, how long it had been frozen for) that I went into a sort of de-animalized meat revolt. To this day I can lick my lips and think "oooh, lunch" at the sight of a live chicken before I can look at shrink-wrapped frozen stryrofoamed fillets at the market and feel tempted.

[Hest88]

I'm someone who likes my beef mediumish and actually rarely mind if it's a bit overcooked. However, I love raw beef in tartare or carpaccio. The thing that always bothered me about steak (which I've become more tolerant of the older I get) is the distinct taste of, uh, blood. Raw beef, however, never has that taste.

Chicken I'm not that fond of, but being Chinese I expect a well-cooked Chinese chicken to be pink near the bone.

Going back to the original question, I think that if your friends are reasonably well-versed in food, they will expect your beef to be close to medium-rare. To be safe, you can go for medium to medium-well, but well-done is just going to be inedible.

[dano1]

I know that good beef should be able to be served below 125 in the center, but when you are playing with people's health no steak should go out below that temp...it just isn't "safe"...

gonna have to fill me in on this one....if someone wants a black and blue 125 aint gonna work and carpaccio is out of the question. If i remember correctly safe temp for chix was dropped recently also. I have no probs sending out a juicy pinkish breast. Pork at 135-depending on cut/carryover-will be a beautiful color and safe. i haven't heard of trich infections from commercial pork products for 60 years; someone wants on the rare side they'll get it.

hth, danny

[Bicycle Lee]

alright alright....

I stand corrected.

[TJHarris]

I have always been of the school of thought that whole muscle beef is just fine to be cooked to a nice red, cool center definition of rare. I have enjoyed my beef this way for better than 20 years with no illness as a result. Carpaccio and Tartare are fine in my book as long as you know the chef in the restaurant you are dining at. It thrills me that restaurants are begining to ask temperature preferences when ordering pork.

[Fresser]

While I prefer my steak to be rather pink-to-red, the sight of blood trickling from a steak would make me vomit. This is one argument for eating kosher meat, as the process of kashering beef (salt, soak & repeat) removes every trace of blood from the meat.

[hathor]

After reading thru this thread, I'm more confused. It seems as if the blood is drained from beef regardless of kosher processing or not, and what exactly is myoglobin, as I can't find it in my dictionary, then that would make the stuff that runs out of beef, just plain juice, right? I hope so, as it certainly tastes good. I'm with the 'might recover crew'!

[dccd]

After reading thru this thread, I'm more confused. It seems as if the blood is drained from beef regardless of kosher processing or not, and what exactly is myoglobin, as I can't find it in my dictionary, then that would make the stuff that runs out of beef, just plain juice, right? I hope so, as it certainly tastes good. I'm with the 'might recover crew'!

Maybe this will help.

From what I understand:

Animals are always "bled out" after harvesting. When you buy meats from the butcher or your grocery store, there is no blood in that meat whatsoever.

When the meat is very fresh, and has not been exposed to extended amounts of oxygen, the actual color is a dark dark maroon. Many people think that it actually doesn't look as fresh as the meats (talking about beef, now of course) that are bright red. When in fact the opposite is true.

What happens when the meat comes into contact with the air, (specifically, oxygen) certain proteins have immediate reactions. One of them, myglobin, which has a high affinity for oxygen, changes the color, to a bright red. Myoglobin is a protein found in the muscle fiber. It is not blood or hemoglobin (which is the pigment found in red blood cells).

With that in mind, when you cook meat rare to medium (still a little pink), these myglobins have not been completely broken down. If the meat emits any of its moisture (from not thoroughly resting and premature slicing or from other pressures on the meat) then this liquid, mostly water, will carry myglobins with it. Since myglobins like oxygen, and their reaction to oxygen is to turn bright red, it can be perceived as blood.

Of course, you, being the knowledgable diner, can expertly explain to your dining companions that it is not blood. It is water. Water with some iron-containing proteins that turn red when exposed to oxygen. Had they let their meat rest a little longer, (or not applied irregular pressures, prematurely), all of that wonderful moisture (juices) would be contained within the fibers of the muscle (the meat) and the meal would be much more enjoyable.

Hope that helps!

Edited May 11, 2004 by dccd (log)

[Bicycle Lee]

If i remember correctly safe temp for chix was dropped recently also.

Any source? To what temp was it dropped?

[ExtraMSG]

It depends on the cut for myself. If it's lean and will stiffen, like flank steak, as it cooks, I want it rare to medium rare. If it's fattier and will moisten as the fat melts, like a ribeye, I want it cooked closer to medium.

But people, oh, they're a problem....My dad freaks if there is any pinkness inside whatsoever. I just don't make him steak anymore. It's a waste. Buy a brisket and slow roast it for those types. Or just feed them chicken. If you want to please the greatest number without making each steak to order, go with medium.

I'd highly recommend purchasing a probe thermometer or two and experimenting. You can watch the steak as it's cooking, set the alarm, and even watch it change temperatures as it rests. Then you can see where you like it. Start with medium rare (145) and see if you like it more or less than that. There's a big difference between rare and raw, but both have their place.

[Mabelline]

If what came out of a steak were truly blood as opposed to juice, it would have a distinct iron taste. It would also solidify, not run.

[Rebel Rose]

. . . If you want to please the greatest number without making each steak to order, go with medium.

The info and comments here are interesting.

Actually, we're not serving beef this weekend. Interesting everyone assumes so. But no, we're serving racks of lamb and duck breasts. It's easy that way to keep serving small appetzer-size portions that are freshly grilled and hot.

It's a leetle hard to use a meat thermometer on smaller portions, but we're pretty accomplished at using the "jelly test!" Works well when you're turning over several hundred portions in the course of an afternoon.

I make a rub for the lamb of sea salt, Tellicherry peppercorn (coarsely ground in an old coffee grinder), and herbs de Provence with extra culinary lavender. On the duck we use a cayenne-cinnamon salt, also homemade. We set bowls of the rubs out on the grill so visitors can see, taste, pinch and ask questions. It's a nice conversation starter. Not that we have much problem with that around here!

Dccd, I'm going to memorize the myoglobin info, thanks! Now I'll sound like I know what I'm doing.

[Hest88]

If what came out of a steak were truly blood as opposed to juice, it would have a distinct iron taste.

You know, I know it's not blood per se, but I swear that I do get that distinct iron taste when I eat steak. And it's not just psychological, I swear!