Chemistry of wine with food

[tsquare]

Couldn't figure out how to search for this, so point me to the thread, if it exists. Thanks.

The other night I ordered a glass of Barbara d'Asti (?). I had a few sips before my entree. The wine had a light body, fairly acidic. Not a lot going for it, but was good enough to quench the thirst.

My dinner arrived - pan roasted chicken with a garlic crust, served with white bean and mushroom ragout, tomato, and spinach. After a couple of mouthfuls of that, the wine took on a much smoother sensation, more body, and riper flavor. A significant difference.

Three questions:

1. What is going on when this happens - is it the taste buds, the interaction of the food and wine, or something else?

2. How can you realistically do a wine tasting and make judgements about the quality of a wine if it will change dramatically when paired with food? (I realize you can judge them relative to each other under similar testing conditions - but is this enough?)

3. What happens when you order a bottle of wine in a restaurant, it seems acceptable, and then once you are eating, it takes on an unacceptable flavor? Or is wine always improved with the ingestion of food? I suppose in the right circles, it wouldn't matter. It is the difference between sending back "corked" wine (the proper thing to do) and attempting to send back wine you just don't care for (this really isn't fair to the restaurant/bar - it was your choice afterall.)

[KatieLoeb]

Couldn't figure out how to search for this, so point me to the thread, if it exists. Thanks.

The other night I ordered a glass of Barbara d'Asti (?). I had a few sips before my entree. The wine had a light body, fairly acidic. Not a lot going for it, but was good enough to quench the thirst.

My dinner arrived - pan roasted chicken with a garlic crust, served with white bean and mushroom ragout, tomato, and spinach. After a couple of mouthfuls of that, the wine took on a much smoother sensation, more body, and riper flavor. A significant difference.

Three questions:

1. What is going on when this happens - is it the taste buds, the interaction of the food and wine, or something else?

2. How can you realistically do a wine tasting and make judgements about the quality of a wine if it will change dramatically when paired with food? (I realize you can judge them relative to each other under similar testing conditions - but is this enough?)

3. What happens when you order a bottle of wine in a restaurant, it seems acceptable, and then once you are eating, it takes on an unacceptable flavor? Or is wine always improved with the ingestion of food? I suppose in the right circles, it wouldn't matter. It is the difference between sending back "corked" wine (the proper thing to do) and attempting to send back wine you just don't care for (this really isn't fair to the restaurant/bar - it was your choice afterall.)

First let me take the gun away from my temple because I'd typed up a lengthy and brilliant response to you and LOST it by accidentally closing the window. So I'll start again and give you the condensed version since I must go to sleep soon...

The most basic chemistry of pairing food and wine has two tenets. Salt counteracts Acid (salt and acid are at opposite ends of the Ph scale) and Fat (particularly animal fat like on meat or in butter) counteracts the harshness of Tannin in red wines. Think of the "classic" wine and food pairings. Oysters and Chablis (the real stuff from France - not that shit in jugs from California!). Chablis is screechingly sour on its own but with a briny oyster - perfection! A big tannic Cabernet or Bordeaux is astringent and makes your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth on its own, but after a big bite of a juicy steak it's wonderful. You can test this theory by using a method I use in staff training. Lick the hollow between your thumb and forefinger and sprinkle a bit of salt there as if you were about to do a shot of tequila. Have a sip of a high acid white wine (Chablis is a good example for this) so you know the flavor on its own. Now lick off the salt and have another sip of the wine. Suddenly the acid level has been tamed, the wine seems rounder and less angular and you can actually taste the FRUIT and not just the acid. The wine is, quite simply, a lot more pleasant. Do the same thing with a tannic red wine and a piece of buttered bread or a juicy slice of roast beef. Sensory experiments such as this really make certain concepts "stick" very well.

Salt counteracts Acid. Fat lessens the harshness of Tannin on red wine. This is the "Wine Pairing 101" lesson.

"Wine Pairing 102". Next you have to take into account the seasonings in the food, including the sauce, spices used in preparation and any strongly flavored garnishes (crumbled Gorgonzola on a salad? There isn't a lot of it, but boy does it influence the flavor of that dish) there might be. It's quite easy to make sweeping generalizations like "I like white wine with chicken", but would you serve the same wine with a roast chicken that you would with a Cajun Spiced Blackened chicken breast? How about a Chicken Scallopine with a Lemon-Caper sauce? Would you expect the same wine to compliment (or NOT) each of these dishes in an identical manner? Of course not. Then there's the other stuff like the alcohol level in the wine (correlates directly to the wine's "body") and whether or not there was barrel influence in the wine's vinification and the associated "oaky" (and other) flavors that it imparts to the wine. It gets complicated pretty quickly. But as you learn more about what wines and foods you enjoy, those subtleties and variables become clearer, nd how those variables interact with one another becomes clearer. And one day, as if by magic, you'll find yourself tasting a wine and you'll think "Wow - this Pinot Noir has lovely scents and flavors that remind me of the forest floor or mushrooms. Sheesh - I bet this would be delicious with a dish that has wild mushrooms or truffles in the sauce." It's a l-o-n-g course of study my friend, but the lifetime of "Lab Work" ahead of you is the best part!

If you are in a restaurant and truly unsure of what to order, by all means ask for help. That's what the Sommelier, Wine Steward or even the waiter with the most trained palate is for. You will be avoiding those embarrassing tableside moments for everyone concerned. You are quite correct in saying that it's very bad form to send back a bottle simply because it's not to your liking. If you're perhaps having a light or seafood appetizer and then a red meat entree, ask for recommendations for wine by the glass. You can switch mid stream this way. This is my usual approach because hey, life's too short and it's that many more opportunities to try something new

My no-fail rule for pairing wine and food is a variant of "When in Rome.." You can't ever go wrong by drinking what the locals drink with the same dish. That's why goat cheese and Sancerre are delicious together. Both the food and the wine is produced by many of the same farmers in the Loire Valley. It's why Chianti really makes Tuscan cuisine jump off the plate. It's why a bracing Rueda from Spain is the most sublime thing you'll ever taste with simply prepared and impeccably fresh shellfish. The Spaniards that live on the sea coast and eat LOTS of seafood have known that for centuries. Sauternes and Foie Gras you ask? Actually the Bordelaise usually drink Monbazillac with their Foie Gras because they'd rather make the money and export the good stuff!

If you are truly serious about pursuing this new interest, I'd strongly suggest taking some wine tasting classes. You can check this site Local Wine Events for wine classes and tastings in your area. See if there's a chapter of Wine Brats HERE in your area. Check the Food section of your local newspaper. What you take away from those classes will add to the pleasure level in your life in exponential measure. You won't ever regret it, and I can state that with complete confidence.

In the end, of course this is all a matter of personal taste. I've had clients that positively insisted on drinking Opus One wtih their oysters . Personally I find that to be a waste of wine and of the oysters as well. I think the tannins make the oysters taste "metallic", for lack of a better phrase, and completely obliterates the delicate and subtle flavor of the oysters. But they're paying the check. And so are you. In the end the best wine to have with dinner is the one you like best.

[herbacidal]

Hmm, that's condensed. Me wonders how many tomes a non-abridged version would fill.

[KatieLoeb]

Hmm, that's condensed.  Me wonders how many tomes a non-abridged version would fill.

Since this is a food site and we're friends, this is entirely appropriate...

I just knew someone was going to bust my shit about that, but I was SO pissed off when I lost the first version that I just had to say something. I should have taken that out after the fact, but now I'm going to leave it so everyone can see how you mock me...

[jackal10]

(salt and acid are at opposite ends of the Ph scale)

err..not quite. Alkali is the opposite end of the Ph scale to acid. Salt does not alter Ph. Ph measures acidity.

Technically Ph stands for p(otential of) H(ydrogen) and is the logarithm of the reciprocal of hydrogen-ion concentration in gram atoms per liter, and so provides a measure on a scale from 0 to 14 of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution (where 7 is neutral, less than 7 is acidic and more than 7 is basic or alkaline). Salt is sodium chloride, and so does not directly affect hydrogen icon concentration, although there may be impurities.

What you are talking about is the effect on taste. Taste perception is complex, and varies between people.

Salt, like acid is one of the basic tastes detected by the tastebuds on the tongue, along with sweet, bitter and "omani" or meatiness. We are more sensitive to changes and differences than absolute magnitude, so increasing the salt level lowers the perception of the others. Salt counteracts sweetness, for example (and vice versa - if you mildly oversalt something you can rescue it by adding some sugar).

Fat coats the tastebuds, so making them less sensitive. Oil soluble (non-ionic) tastes dissolve better in fat than water-based (ionic) tastes, so the salt and acidic sensations are more reduced and thus the sweet, bitter and "omani" tastes are relatively enhanced. Tends round out flavours, since the perception lasts longer. Think of adding cream or butter to a sauce.

Some foods, artichoke and to some extent beans, alter the taste of subsequent foods. Artichoke makes things taste sweeter then they are.

Wine also changes in the glass, as it warms up, oxidises and the volatiles evaporate. Probably not much change for Asti, but can be significant for older red wines.

You'll know if a wine is truly corked - it tastes horrid in a charateristic way, and not like it is meant to. It happens surprisingly often - maybe 1 in a hundred bottles, even for well made and bottled wines. Once a night for a busy restaurant. Maybe one of our sommeliers can say more accurately.

However even more often a customer will send a wine back saying its corked when it is not. Maybe this is from ignorance or from bluster - maybe it is more tannic or acid than they were expecting, since they ordered a tragically young cheap wine, or maybe they are just trying it on, having drunk half the bottle first. Short of an argument, there is not much a restaurant can do, except resell the rst of the wine by the glass.

Edited January 16, 2004 by jackal10 (log)

[Pan]

I just knew someone was going to bust my shit about that, but I was SO pissed off when I lost the first version that I just had to say something. I should have taken that out after the fact, but now I'm going to leave it so everyone can see how you mock me...

No mocking here. I know the feeling.

[Boris_A]

After a couple of mouthfuls of that, the wine took on a much smoother sensation, more body, and riper flavor. A significant difference.

Three questions:

2. How can you realistically do a wine tasting and make judgements about the quality of a wine if it will change dramatically when paired with food?

That's why so many tasting notes (points) are meaningless when it comes to food pairing. Here the rather delicate wines, showing 'lack of intensity' in a tasting serie, can transform to wonderful, balanced impressions. That's why the craze for full bodied wines (generally the high rated ones) is such a doubtful development.

1. What is going on when this happens - is it the taste buds, the interaction of the food and wine, or something else?

Now this is a questian about physics, chemistry, physiology and psychology and maybe some other constraints from different fields. Parameter overflow!

[tsquare]

Thanks for the considerable responses.

I have been drinking wine for (too) many years. At one time, I actually knew something about some of them - early California, at least. But the field outgrew me (and my $) quickly. I have a reasonable awareness of general wine pairing and such, but this struck me so strongly this week that I wanted to hear what you all might have to say on the subject.

Funny, I studied perception and sensation as an undergrad - but related to visual, with some inquiry into tactility. Audio alludes me - but I'm trying with symphony concerts. Nose - inherently trained. Taste - a pleasure to study!

[Msk]

Are there any good books or guides written on this subject? I'd be interested in reading more on it beyond the 101 stuff.

Msk

[nanuq]

This is one of those subjects that reminds me why I love wine. I know we've had a good night when we've spent the whole meal discussing how the wine worked with different parts of the meal, how it changed, what surprised us.

The Culinary Institute in Napa offers a couple of classes on wine and food pairing, as part of the Wine Studies Program.

Edited January 22, 2004 by nanuq (log)

[KatieLoeb]

Are there any good books or guides written on this subject?  I'd be interested in reading more on it beyond the 101 stuff.

Msk

Andrea Immer has written two books, Great Wine Made Simple:Straight Talk from a Master Sommelier, all about learning about the six big varietals and choosing wines, and Great Tastes Made Simple which is one of the best instructive guides to paring food and wine I've ever read. Andrea is a great writer, has infectious enthusiasm for her subject, and clearly knows her stuff and can relate it in terms the general public can wrap their heads around. In other words, you won't need the M.S. degree she holds to take a great deal of knowledge away from these books. Books are readily available on Amazon.com or your local chain bookstore.

[suzilightning]

there is a book i'm asking work to order that got some good reviews in nyt and some of the other professional reviewing media. it's called Renaissance Guide to Wine and Food Pairings by Tony Didio and Amy Zavatto. anyone familiar with whether the title addresses this? katie? craig?

[KatieLoeb]

there is a book i'm asking work to order that got some good reviews in nyt and some of the other professional reviewing media. it's called Renaissance Guide to Wine and Food Pairings by Tony Didio and Amy Zavatto. anyone familiar with whether the title addresses this? katie? craig?

Sorry Suzi. That one's new to me, but I'll certainly have my eye out for it on my next wander through Barnes & Noble. Please post your impressions when you get the book!