"Ethnic" food

g.johnson · February 23, 2003

Asalt and Battery (a fish and chip shop opened by Brits) is immigrant cuisine. No one would describe it as ethnic.

Suvir Saran · February 23, 2003

Asalt and Battery (a fish and chip shop opened by Brits) is immigrant cuisine. No one would describe it as ethnic.

Amazing Point! :smile:

stefanyb · February 24, 2003

Asalt and Battery (a fish and chip shop opened by Brits) is immigrant cuisine. No one would describe it as ethnic.

Well the second part of my original premise was- to what extent it diverges from English cuisine. In this case, not at all.

Steve Plotnicki · February 24, 2003

Asalt and Battery (a fish and chip shop opened by Brits) is immigrant cuisine. No one would describe it as ethnic.

I made this point at the beginning of the thread. The Brits are not considered "ethnic."

Edited February 24, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

g.johnson · February 24, 2003

That's not to say that Stephanie isn't correct in stressing the recent immigrant aspect of what we normally think of as 'ethnic'. Just that it's not a sufficient condition.

Edited February 24, 2003 by g.johnson (log)

stefanyb · February 24, 2003

Actually, the more I think about it the more deep fried Mars Bars have a certain ethnic quality :raz:

indiagirl · February 24, 2003

if i could take the liberty to sum up the various definitions that i have heard on this thread, that build on what i consider the commonly used defintion of ethnic food, ethnic food would have to have the following charactersitics:

it would have to be foreign , removed from the mainstream

the ingredients would have to be procured from an "ethnic" (ha, could not resist that) grocery store, perhaps just another reinforcement of the "removed from the mainstream" point but i think it reinforces a specific kind of differentness. it would address, for example, the fish and chips, possibly removed from the mainstream but not considered "ethnic"

cuisine with ingredients that the local grocery store does not carry

C.I.L.G.S.D.N.C unpronounceable but some would consider that par for the course for "ethnic" food!

about the implied price point discussion - i think at some point it was probably relevant. i do not take offense to the assumption since i suspect that the early stages of the majority of immigrants arriving on u.s. shores, were cahracterized by cheap food served in unglamourous surroundings.

it is the inability of people's minds to expand and remain open, the inability of people to be able to reassess their defintions when exposed to new facts, that leaves me astounded. in light of coming across one's fiftieth upscale restaurant of a particular ethnicity, i am unable to parse people that conclude that the restaurant is not ethnic as opposed to concluding ethnic does not mean cheap and ghetto, ethnic means a specific kind of cuisine

the negative sense that comes with the phrase ethnic is, i believe, the same sense that applies to the phrase immigrant. being one, i have heard it used in a personal context a million times. and living in a liberal town, it is frequently used in a positive context.

even with the positives, it is the collective definition that goes with the phrase that bothers me. an uber-identity if you will that appears to define me at a granualrity i find hard to digest. yes, i am brown, yes, my food is predominantly yellow, i do not find these definitions bothersome. it is the aspect of all indians being similar and the further association that all immigrants are somehwat similar that leads to the negative wash to it all. because it is that mass grouping that i think perforce leads to defintions of cleanliness, hygiene, odor, income level , etc.

i do not have a better word as a substitute, what i would wish for is a way to keep on the word because it makes sense at so many levels and merely remove the negative connotations associated with it.

and then we'll figure out how to make sure no one in the world ever dies of hunger again.

yeah, i know.

(edited to change my incorrect acronym!)

Edited February 24, 2003 by indiagirl (log)

Suvir Saran · February 24, 2003

if i could take the liberty to sum up the various definitions that i have heard on this thread, that build on what i consider the commonly used defintion of ethnic food, ethnic food would have to have the following charactersitics:
it would have to be foreign , removed from the mainstream
the ingredients would have to be procured from an "ethnic" (ha, could not resist that) grocery store, perhaps just another reinforcement of the "removed from the mainstream" point but i think it reinforces a specific kind of differentness. it would address, for example, the fish and chips, possibly removed from the mainstream but not considered "ethnic"
cuisine with ingredients that the local grocery store does not carry
C.I.L.G.S.D.N.C unpronounceable but some would consider that par for the course for "ethnic" food!
about the implied price point discussion - i think at some point it was probably relevant. i do not take offense to the assumption since i suspect that the early stages of the majority of immigrants arriving on u.s. shores, were cahracterized by cheap food served in unglamourous surroundings.
it is the inability of people's minds to expand and remain open, the inability of people to be able to reassess their defintions when exposed to new facts, that leaves me astounded. in light of coming across one's fiftieth upscale restaurant of a particular ethnicity, i am unable to parse people that conclude that the restaurant is not ethnic as opposed to concluding ethnic does not mean cheap and ghetto, ethnic means a specific kind of cuisine
the negative sense that comes with the phrase ethnic is, i believe, the same sense that applies to the phrase immigrant. being one, i have heard it used in a personal context a million times. and living in a liberal town, it is frequently used in a positive context.
even with the positives, it is the collective definition that goes with the phrase that bothers me. an uber-identity if you will that appears to define me at a granualrity i find hard to digest. yes, i am brown, yes, my food is predominantly yellow, i do not find these definitions bothersome. it is the aspect of all indians being similar and the further association that all immigrants are somehwat similar that leads to the negative wash to it all. because it is that mass grouping that i think perforce leads to defintions of cleanliness, hygiene, odor, income level , etc.
i do not have a better word as a substitute, what i would wish for is a way to keep on the word because it makes sense at so many levels and merely remove the negative connotations associated with it.
and then we'll figure out how to make sure no one in the world ever dies of hunger again.
yeah, i know.
(edited to change my incorrect acronym!)

How wonderful! Thanks for that post Indiagirl.

And I am a fellow brown, ethnic and immigrant.

And like you, I have seen both faces of both these words. Or shall I say all faces, ugly and usual of both these words.

Life is beautiful. Even when being ridiculed, I tend to hope the other is not simply being a bigot. I often believe they are naive and give myself some comfort and the other the benefit of doubt.

Price point cannot define something as ethnic or immigrant. Those times have changed.

Far too many people coming from India, China, Japan and other countries into the US come from families far more affluent than the average upper middle class in the US. How could the food and customs of these rich masses (immigrants) be considered ethnic if price alone could define them?

So I agree with Indiagirl that it is far more complex. And it ought to be understood as that and not easy to be generalized.

Jason Perlow · February 24, 2003

Actually, the more I think about it the more deep fried Mars Bars have a certain ethnic quality

Its Scottish, actually. Originated in fish and chip shops in Aberdeen.

Fat Guy · February 24, 2003

All that brings them together into a category is what they are not.

Why does that make it especially difficult to come up with a replacement term? We have prefixes like "non" in the language to cover situations in which concepts are defined by what they are not. Like "non-Western cuisine," which is certainly worth looking at as a jumping-off point. We also have words in the language that imply otherness, as in "alternative cuisine," or the aforementioned "exotic cuisine."

The way many people use the term "ethnic cuisine" has so little to do with ethnicity that we should keep asking explicitly what it does have to do with. And my current thinking is that maybe it's really a question of orthodoxy. Maybe we're really talking about heterodox cuisine.

vengroff · February 24, 2003

It's not that we don't have the linguistic constructs to form a negative definition. It's that any such definition, which lumps all kinds of things together that are completely unrelated in any positive sense, is going to have inherently exclusionary connotations in many people's minds. I'm not sure that choosing another word is going to result in the categorization it describes being any more palatable to those who already dislike the term ethnic.

Ron Johnson · February 24, 2003

When a person says "ethnic" he/she is referring to ethnicities other than his/her own. It is not an implicit put-down. Its jjst easier to say "ethnic food" than it is to say "food from other ethnicities", which is what is meant. So, yes when a white american of european descent refers to "ethnic food", he/she is referring to food unlike that from his/her own background. This would mean not northern european food, but would include Middle Eastern, Mediteranean-Eropean, Latin American, Asian, etc.

The only implicit putdown is the generalization that people who use the term are racist. Actually, its fairly explicit.

tommy · February 24, 2003

when a friend of mine says something like "let's get something ethnic [to eat] today," i know that it means something like "asian" or "middle eastern." it could also mean food from a few other places, but generally not europe. and it's certainly not pejorative.

for us, it's a word that effectively communicates our thoughts. we need more of those.

A Scottish Chef · February 24, 2003

Actually, the more I think about it the more deep fried Mars Bars have a certain ethnic quality
Its Scottish, actually. Originated in fish and chip shops in Aberdeen.

Traditional Ethnic Scottish Cuisine.

Aye, ok.

It won't be the fist time Scottish invention explodes onto the world at large. Next thing you know deep fried mars bars will be served in Paris restaurants.

Oops...they already have!

Steve Plotnicki · February 24, 2003

When a person says "ethnic" he/she is referring to ethnicities other than his/her own. It is not an implicit put-down. Its jjst easier to say "ethnic food" than it is to say "food from other ethnicities", which is what is meant. So, yes when a white american of european descent refers to "ethnic food", he/she is referring to food unlike that from his/her own background. This would mean not northern european food, but would include Middle Eastern, Mediteranean-Eropean, Latin American, Asian, etc.
The only implicit putdown is the generalization that people who use the term are racist. Actually, its fairly explicit.

But you can make this argument about almost any word that draws a distinction between people. And if all words were the same, they wouldn't seek to change them for things that have less onerous inferences. That is why we are looking for one that has less of a negative connotation, while still detailing a difference. In this instance, a word that does a better job of describing the cuisine, and not the people who make the cuisine, is probably on the right track.

=Mark · February 24, 2003

The degree with which food of other countries can be considered ethnic is problematic. Is corned beef and cabbage considered an "ethnic" dish even when it is not really eaten in Ireland? Likewise the many so called Chinese dishes that were actually created in the US, are these still ethnic? How do Italian restaurants reconcile offering Caesar salad when it was created in Mexico?

I also find it not a little amusing that in spite of the comments about French cuisine being a little too "haught" to be considered ethnic, one can still find bottles of the horrid florescent orange goo called "French" salad dressing. I'd like to know the sequence of events that resulted in the creation and subsequent naming of that stuff. You would think that if the French desired to protest anything about the US it would be "French" salad dressing. Is that ethnic? I'm sure Kraft exports tons of that stuff to France... :shock:

Fat Guy · February 24, 2003

What I'm saying is that it's not mostly about national origin, but rather about being inside or outside of a culinary orthodoxy.

Wilfrid · February 24, 2003

I hadn't thought about this before, but I must say I think Pan has a very good point. Where I come out, now that I have thought about it, is that "ethnic" generally does mean non-white in this context (the Protestant bit is a red herring). I suspect very few people think of Italian food when they talk of ethnic cuisines, and I'm not convinced German, Austrian, Swedish or Australian food is generally termed "ethnic" either.

When it comes to a replacement term, I think we should first ask ourselves whether it's a categorization we want to continue to use. I'm in two minds. The example of "race" records is relevant: no-one would want to revive that, yet "R&B" is still used as a very wide and imprecise term for "black" music (yes, there are a few white artists who would fall into that category, but you get my point). I think "R&B" is considered a useful and non-offensive term. So maybe a synonym for "ethnic" wouldn't be so bad. Steven's non-Western is about the best suggestion yet, and it wouldn't be the first time Australia and New Zealand have been considered part of "the West".

g.johnson · February 24, 2003

Actually, the more I think about it the more deep fried Mars Bars have a certain ethnic quality

You mean 'emetic'.

Fat Guy · February 24, 2003

But Wilfrid, look at the counterexamples of white nations with cuisines that most Americans would consider "ethnic": Spain, Greece, Argentina, Chile, etc. I don't think this is primarily a race issue.

Wilfrid · February 24, 2003

Fair point. I guess I wouldn't think of Spanish, Greek and Argentinian as ethnic, but I may be in a minority. There are Chilean restaurants?

Suzanne F · February 24, 2003

Pomaire, near the far west end of Restaurant Row. Not terribly exciting the one time I went.

Ron Johnson · February 24, 2003

When a person says "ethnic" he/she is referring to ethnicities other than his/her own. It is not an implicit put-down. Its jjst easier to say "ethnic food" than it is to say "food from other ethnicities", which is what is meant. So, yes when a white american of european descent refers to "ethnic food", he/she is referring to food unlike that from his/her own background. This would mean not northern european food, but would include Middle Eastern, Mediteranean-Eropean, Latin American, Asian, etc.
The only implicit putdown is the generalization that people who use the term are racist. Actually, its fairly explicit.
But you can make this argument about almost any word that draws a distinction between people. And if all words were the same, they wouldn't seek to change them for things that have less onerous inferences.

Who is "they"?

When we have people over we refer to them as guests. Sometimes, I am told, "See if the guests need some more drinks." This is good use of language because I know exactly to whom it refers. It means all those who are not the hosts. Its not a put down just because it differentiates groups of people.

Steve Plotnicki · February 24, 2003

Thinking about it more and reading Wilfrid's reponse, I think the word has religious, class and racial connotations. If you are not a poor, non-white immigrant, you are not considered ethnic. Nobody considers I.M. Pei or Zubin Mehta to be ethnic. But they do consider many Chinese and Indian restaurants to be. I also think Italian cuisine can be ethnic based on what they are communicating to the public. Diner at Babbo isn't ethnic, but dinner at Don Pepe's is because it is associated with poor Italian (read Catholic) immigrants from the area around Naples. .

Edited February 24, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

Ron Johnson · February 24, 2003

If you are poor and of a background other than european, I guess you would consider Ducasse to be an ethnic restaurant. Wonder if he feels put down by that fact?

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