PMS: Tell it Like It Is. Your cravings, Babe (Part 1)

zennenn · December 20, 2003

I had such a good time reading this thread!

One of my favorite sweet/salty/crunchy combinations is cheese popcorn mixed with caramel popcorn. My preferred ratio is 2 cheesy to 1 caramel. I'm a little afraid of the bright orange fake cheese involved, but it does the trick for me.

When I've been in Chicago, there's a place that makes the best popcorn--they're famous--I can't remember their name. They do mail order . . . and they sell the cheese caramel combination. Anybody know the place?

maggiethecat · December 20, 2003

Here's more.

I think you must mean Garrett's.

zennenn · December 21, 2003

Yes! That's the place. Thank you, Maggie!

Rhea_S · December 23, 2003

My cravings started last week: bacon, potato chips, greasy burgers and smoked oysters. The first two aren't too strange for me, but I've never bought canned smoked oysters in my whole life. I've eaten two tins in the last 5 days. I've also been drinking litres and litres of water. The oddest thing this week is that sweets have no appeal and I'm usually a sugar addict. This was fortuitous as I was able to give away more cookies than usual.

suzilightning · December 27, 2003

I had such a good time reading this thread!
One of my favorite sweet/salty/crunchy combinations is cheese popcorn mixed with caramel popcorn. My preferred ratio is 2 cheesy to 1 caramel. I'm a little afraid of the bright orange fake cheese involved, but it does the trick for me.
When I've been in Chicago, there's a place that makes the best popcorn--they're famous--I can't remember their name. They do mail order . . . and they sell the cheese caramel combination. Anybody know the place?

probably repeating myself but...

white cheddar popcorn and hot cocoa

just got back from the mil's and two days of cooking -

could not care less if i ate anything - drinking on the other hand... :laugh: :wacko: :laugh:

jess mebane · December 27, 2003

after being gestational for nigh on four years, this PMS stuff was a distant memory, as was the price of femmy products-YIKES! But I must say that if you have to beat back the symptoms with chocolate or salty snacks during holiday season, at least everyone else is doing the same thing with a drink in their hands, too.

Me, I'm a sucker for chicharrones 'n eggs with fresh salsa and Kettle cracked pepper chips with crab dip. And chocolate cookies with bits of green pistachios in the swirly part--better than special brownies.....

balmagowry · March 8, 2004

First things first. Count me as a salt-fat-grease-redmeat type, mostly - potato chips, rare steak with lots of fat, bacon sandwich on generously buttered rye toast (serious YUM), and so on. Rarely chocolate - but when it is chocolate it had better be bitter as death (well, bittersweet as death!) and black as the ace of spades and... can't think of any other original similes off-hand. Then again, I tend to want those things most of the time - just more so when it's That Time. And it's getting to be That Time now, so unfortunately the other craving is kicking in - the Craving For Whatever Idiotic Thing Was Mentioned Last, even if I wouldn't normally consider it at all. In this case it's those damn toasted-coconut-covered marshmallow things (see Peeps thread... also Incredibly Strange Cravings thread... also...). Damn - now I have to decide whether I want 'em badly enough to get off my ass and go to CVS. Inertia? Cravings? Decisions, decisions. No - I know, much better idea than either of those: I'll sit here and burst into tears!

Only - Himself ain't home to reap the benefit, so why bother? This is getting very confusing.

But speaking of very confusing - second things second. Maggie, I've been reading (and wallowing in) your marvelous article about PMS - which probably has a thread of its own on which I should be cross-posting this, but if I'm too lazy to go to CVS to satisfy my own cravings you KNOW I'm too lazy to hunt it up... or down... and besides it doesn't not belong here... STOP DITHERING! :slaps self in face:

Anyway - and seriously - I was thinking about the research into serotonin-related foods, and it struck me that there's another field where all that may well apply, and where it may even be being handled right, but quite possibly for the wrong reasons. OK, let me see if I can get this into logical sequence:

You don't mention this in your article, probably because it's such a recent development that it wasn't really even happening yet when you wrote: the fact that doctors are now using a re-packaged version of Prozac to treat PMS and dysmenorrhea - Prozac being, of course, an SRI (Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor) drug. Correlates directly (and I didn't understand this at all until I read your piece) with the cravings you chronicle for serotonin-precursor foods. Also correlates with the way the emotional symptoms of PMS mimic those of anxiety-type depression, for which the treatment of choice, these days, is - you guessed it - SRIs.

For those who know even less about this than I do (and please, someone, jump in and correct me if you know more and if I'm getting it muddled), the significance of the reuptake thing is this: serotonin is one of the neurotransmitters that keep the brain on an even keel. A lot of different forms of depression and anxiety are caused at least partly by the brain being unable to get hold of as much of this stuff as it needs to keep itself happy - but... oddly enough the brain is usually mistaken in perceiving itself as having a serotonin deficiency. Most people make plenty of serotonin; the problem is that in people with certain types of depression the serotonin is being reabsorbed by some bit of the nervous system (the name of which I can't call to mind at the moment) faster than the brain can latch onto it to make use of it. Typically, we counteract this in one of two ways: instinctively, by trying to create more serotonin - which is counterproductive because it's attacking the wrong part of the problem, and that too will just get absorbed, though yes it does temporarily raise the level somewhat - or more recently, medically, by taking drugs which inhibit the re-absorption (=reuptake) of the plentiful serotonoin we already have. How does one create more serotonin? Damned if I know, but the raw materials include the kinds of foods which are serotonin-precursors: the kinds of foods described in the article, the kinds of foods we crave at That Time: chocolate, red meat, etc. There are also herbal supplements which provide serotonin precursors, but I think we've drifted far enough away from our animal instincts and ancient knowledge that we aren't going to crave these; like the SRI drugs we are only going to take them if we know about them and can get them.

(I haven't gotten to the point yet, but I'm almost there, I think.)

OK, so both your research and the new treatment suggest the same thing: that the emotional aspect of PMS perfectly mimics the type of depression/anxiety which is caused by an apparent serotonin deficiency, and that it can be successfully treated (or at least mitigated) by the same approaches used for said depression. So far so good. I would also hazard a guess that one reason there's such a wide range of different emotional manifestations of PMS is that some women suffer from depression to begin with and others don't (or do, but to different degrees) - obviously the effects of changing hormone and neurotransmitter levels will vary greatly according to baseline conditions... but now I am digressing, to a degree, so I will wrench myself back toward the point. Which is this:

Here's a population that has similar experiences: compulsive overeaters. Excluding, for purposes of this theory, the extreme/overlapping subsets (anorexics, bulimics, etc.), your basic out-of-control overeater typically has these things in common with a woman going through PMS: cravings for various rich foods which we now know to be serotonin precursors, and a tendency toward depression. Back when I first knew anything at all about compulsive overeating (a close friend asked me to come with her to a couple of OA meetings for extra moral support) I knew not the first thing about serotonin, chronic depression, hormones, neurotransmitters, nothin'. And this was a good 25 years ago, so SRIs weren't even out there yet, or not in the variety and profusion they are now. And PMS was still the Mysterious Ailment That Dared Not Speak Its Name. And if somewhere along the line I somehow consciously picked up on a statistical correlation between chronic overeating and clinical depression, that's about as sophisticated as my thinking got.

But now! O brave new world, that hath such drugs and such refinements in't!

OK, so here at last is what I'm wondering, and I'm raising it here in the hope that you may have learned something about it while you were researching the PMS piece: is anyone studying the correlation between overeating and depression in the same light? IOW, now that I've already made a long story long, is anyone exploring the possibility that compulsive overeating may be almost exactly the same thing as full-time 24/7 PMS?

If that sounds obvious in light of the foregoing, I can only tell you that it struck me like a bolt from the blue. Here you have a population that powerfully craves food, with an emphasis on certain types of foods that are generally considered naughty when consumed in great abundance; these people are compelled to eat what they eat by some force they don't understand; typically they are also terribly depressed. The traditional response to this combination is to view it as an emotional vicious cycle which can only be broken through therapy; whatever the root emotional cause, goes this thinking, you overeat because you are depressed and you are depressed because you can't control your overeating. So that emotional root cause must be rooted out, and the vicious cycle broken.

BUT WHAT IF THERE IS NO EMOTIONAL ROOT CAUSE? Or what if there is one, but that is only part of what's really going on? What if the primary mechanism operating here is the same one that has been identified with PMS - a lack of serotonin causing the depression, and cravings for the kinds of foods which will enhance serotonin production and thereby alleviate the depression? IOW, you might think you're depressed because you overeat, when in actual fact you're depressed because your body is neurochemically programmed for depression and the overeating is really the tool you're using to fight that programming.

I suspect that a lot of compulsive overeaters today are having their depression/anxiety treated with SRIs, and are discovering incidentally that their cravings are being miraculously reduced - what I don't know, and would love to find out, is whether or not that's... a coincidence.

Variations on a theme of Food and the Body, I guess. Any inklings, anyone?

Oh... sorry, didn't mean to wake you.

Edited March 8, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

maggiethecat · March 8, 2004

IOW, you might think you're depressed because you overeat, when in actual fact you're depressed because your body is neurochemically programmed for depression and the overeating is really the tool you're using to fight that programming.
I suspect that a lot of compulsive overeaters today are having their depression/anxiety treated with SRIs, and are discovering incidentally that their cravings are being miraculously reduced - what I don't know, and would love to find out, is whether or not that's... a coincidence.
Oh... sorry, didn't mean to wake you.

No ma'am, I'm wide awake!

I don't posses nearly enough information to discuss your points as intelligently as I should (day 22 as well) but I glommed on to this last bit because of the situation a buddy's in right now. She's just finished a month at Addictive Behaviour Workshop. (I had lunch with her every day for a couple of years -- me with my leftover rigatoni, her with a salad and a yoghurt. She gained a lot more weight than I did!)

She's been on SRIs for a couple of years, and they may well have improved her life. But: This smart lady still can't control her food cravings! And, of course, that makes her feel guilty and helpless no matter how much therapy and how many meds she's taking! She told me that perhaps some of the other folks in her workshop are worse off than she --alcoholics, gamblers, crackheads -- but she still feels the same guilt and helplessness they do.

By the way, my friend doesn't cook much. Lives on Lean Cuisines and Ben and Jerry's. I've considered doing the personal chef thing for her, but she'd think my cooking was the work of the devil, and I'd have to work out the nutrtional info for every blessed bite I delivered.

She's taken SRIs while fertile and into menopause. As I said, I'm sure they've helped, but not enough to curb the cravings.

hillvalley · March 9, 2004

The connection between overeating and depression is one that was made years ago. I'll try to find out what's going on at NIMH. There is also a strong comorbidity between anorexia, anxiety and depression. It is not ironic that all three illnesses are being treated with SSRI's.

You crave carbs during PMS or when you are depressed for the same reason you crave chocolate. (Sorry if you mentionted that balm)

I know it's not food related, but....

If you get cramps and use a heating pad to relieve them, go get the Therma care Heat pads. These things are amazing. They are use and toss heating pads with just enough stickiness to stay in place. I wore one all day and no one had any idea. Normally I would be against anything you use only once and then toss, but these things are worth it.

Craving Dulce de Leche in warm milk. Drinking a mug now.

balmagowry · March 9, 2004

I don't posses nearly enough information to discuss your points as intelligently as I should (day 22 as well) but I glommed on to this last bit because of the situation a buddy's in right now. She's just finished a month at Addictive Behaviour Workshop. (I had lunch with her every day for a couple of years -- me with my leftover rigatoni, her with a salad and a yoghurt. She gained a lot more weight than I did!)
She's been on SRIs for a couple of years, and they may well have improved her life. But: This smart lady still can't control her food cravings! And, of course, that makes her feel guilty and helpless no matter how much therapy and how many meds she's taking! She told me that perhaps some of the other folks in her workshop are worse off than she --alcoholics, gamblers, crackheads -- but she still feels the same guilt and helplessness they do.
By the way, my friend doesn't cook much. Lives on Lean Cuisines and Ben and Jerry's. I've considered doing the personal chef thing for her, but she'd think my cooking was the work of the devil, and I'd have to work out the nutrtional info for every blessed bite I delivered.
She's taken SRIs while fertile and into menopause. As I said, I'm sure they've helped, but not enough to curb the cravings.

Oh well, so much for my hope that I'd stumbled onto a magic bullet theory. Shoulda known nothing would be quite that straightforward - these are human beings we're talking about, after all! Doesn't mean the theory doesn't have its little patch of validity, of course; just that if so it's still only one of many factors that can combine to make one's life hell in this addictive world of ours. I was just over on the comfort foods thread, where I thrilled to your suggestion of throwing red meat to the inner woman, and of course it hit me that that too is part of this same animal. Looked up the studies behind it, and sure enough they're sull of stuff about the compounds in chocolate that can make it [A] satisfying in the face of certain cravings and addictive, goddammit. Though the list of comfort foods studied is so limited it does overlap heavily with the cravings discussed up-thread, and the study suggests additional reasons for why those comfort foods are comforting. No scientist I, so I can't be dure of this, but it does look like some of the jargon there about hormones and cortico-somethings was just fancier jargon for the serotonin-precursor effect. But of course there's more to it than that. Damn, isn't there always.

How interesting that your friend has been tackling her problem generically as addictive behavior rather than specifically as overeating. My only perspective on this is the vicarious one I mentioned via OA - actually, that isn't true, I'd done a different kind of semi-vicarious stint before that, at Al-Anon - and it struck me that being in OA has got to be, in one sense, harder than any other 12-step program. For the simple reason that in theory you can give up any other behavior cold turkey - but you can't do that with eating! Makes the 12-step model really tricky, because if the problem is alcohol or drugs you don't have to be able to make subtle distinctions: the enemy is the enemy and that's that, and the whole premise is No! I can't have Just One! But food can't be exclusively the enemy or you gonna DIE, so you have to imbue it with a kind of split personality, make certain arbitrary distinctions and adhere to them rigidly no matter how little sense they seem to make at the time. And throughout it all you gotta go on eating and being with other people who also eat. It's the only application of 12-step that has grey areas, that necessarily cultivates moderation rather than absolutes. I don't say it's necessarily harder, but it's gotta be more complicated - just at the time when you most need something simple to hang onto. Which is probably why the 12-step model does work so well for a lot of overeaters: because it's designed for long-term maintenance and encouragement and support.

Anyway, I wouldn't go assuming that the others in the program are necessarily worse off - they are in a sense, in that the substances they're fighting are more overtly dangerous. But they're not struggling any harder or any less desperately.

Edited March 9, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

balmagowry · March 9, 2004

The connection between overeating and depression is one that was made years ago. I'll try to find out what's going on at NIMH. There is also a strong comorbidity between anorexia, anxiety and depression. It is not ironic that all three illnesses are being treated with SSRI's.
You crave carbs during PMS or when you are depressed for the same reason you crave chocolate. (Sorry if you mentionted that balm)

Yes, I know the connection is nothing new - and neither is the treatment with SSRIs (I always forget that first S because I forget what it stands for - Oh! Selective, right?). What is relatively new, as I understand it, is the use of SSRIs for PMS, and that was what got me all excited: I was hoping to find some tighter correlation between the natures of the cravings and their causes.

Looks like, as usual, I was trying to oversimplify the universe. Boy, I really wish the universe would cooperate, just once in a while.

I know it's not food related, but....
If you get cramps and use a heating pad to relieve them, go get the Therma care Heat pads. These things are amazing. They are use and toss heating pads with just enough stickiness to stay in place. I wore one all day and no one had any idea. Normally I would be against anything you use only once and then toss, but these things are worth it.

Oh! I'd forgottenb about those things. Yes, they are pretty terrific. Also - I discovered them because I was using the bigger ones for muscle pain on my back; and of course they're exactly the same thing, just cut in a different shape... but the big ones work out to be a good bit cheaper. I've stopped using them because I always have my wonderful moist-heat pad at the ready, and for a couple days a month my back just takes, you should pardon the expression, a back seat to my groaning gut.

Craving Dulce de Leche in warm milk. Drinking a mug now.

Oh I hate you now you've made me want some too! And I still haven't been to CVS for those stupid marshmallow things, so now I have to decide which I want most urgently. Well, Himself is on way home tonight, so maybe this time I will burst into tears. Sounds like a plan.

geekdoc · March 9, 2004

Why not just go with continous OCP's or Nuvaring and stop this crazy cycling altogether? Not kidding about this, its what I do. Patients LOVE it.

sml311 · March 9, 2004

Sorry but I just had to admit this:

Two trips to Krispy Kreme in 36 hours. Three hots, two devils foods and a key lime.

Also went way out of my way to fulfill a craving for the WORST QUESO IN THE WORLD!! Seriously. I wanted stale chips and industrial queso from this awful restaurant that was at my old college. I ate the whole cup and a half. I even dragged my poor puppy in the car with me....

Sigh.

Feel much better now that I've admitted it.

SML

PS Also, does anyone else lose their appetite as soon as their period starts? I do....

balmagowry · March 9, 2004

Why not just go with continous OCP's or Nuvaring and stop this crazy cycling altogether? Not kidding about this, its what I do. Patients LOVE it.

Sounds like bliss, I must say... but then what would we all get together and bitch about?

hillvalley · March 9, 2004

Why not just go with continous OCP's or Nuvaring and stop this crazy cycling altogether? Not kidding about this, its what I do. Patients LOVE it.

What's OCP?

Until recently I was on the pill and my period was complete bliss. Almost no mood swings, cramps, cravings, etc. For other health reasons I had to stop but it was worth it. Found my libido!!

For snack today my studentss had pretzles with dulce de leche 'cause their teacher was craving sweet and salty :wink:

Yes, I know the connection is nothing new - and neither is the treatment with SSRIs (I always forget that first S because I forget what it stands for - Oh! Selective, right?). What is relatively new, as I understand it, is the use of SSRIs for PMS, and that was what got me all excited: I was hoping to find some tighter correlation between the natures of the cravings and their causes.
Looks like, as usual, I was trying to oversimplify the universe. Boy, I really wish the universe would cooperate, just once in a while.

I know at least one doctor who has prescribed ssri's off label for PMS for a while now. His patients who were using them to treat depression mentioned how much better their PMS was. I'll find out tomorrow what's going on in Bethesda.

bloviatrix · March 10, 2004

OCP - otherwise know as OCs or Oral Contraceptives (I assume the P is for pill)

hillvalley · March 11, 2004

The connection between overeating and depression is one that was made years ago. I'll try to find out what's going on at NIMH.

There is work with SSRI's and PMS being done, although I couldn't get specifics.

There is also a new paper out reporting findings about using SSRI's for PMS. The study had two groups, one who took meds all month long and others who took meds only during PMS. The study found that both methods are equally effective, which is great news.

klc14 · March 17, 2004

Quoting Pumpkin Lover:

calcium reduces the pain of cramps, I hear.

I believe it does, my evidence is anecdotal, but earnest :laugh: -- YMMV!

Back in the 80's. I was taking a math class at the community college twice a week, and I HATE math so I rewarded myself with pizza for dinner every night on the way to class. I had classes on about 4 nights, I think.

Yes, I gained weight (six pounds). And it cost me about $100 because I was going to Pizza Hut (booths were suitable for spreading out the books to study while taking on pizza) and buying, and eating, most of one small cheese pizza 4 nights a week. I usually took a couple of pieces home which did duty for breakfast.

And the next month.... What a complete total astounding difference. One of my curses had been getting these horrid pulling cramps in my legs....but that month, I had only the faintest brush of them for an afternoon. Any sort of cramping was SO MUCH LESS.... I was still limp as a dishrag with fatigue, but the absence of pain made it all so much more bearable. Some months I had so little cramping I barely noticed it. Been that way ever since.

I KNEW I loved pizza, but suddenly it was the MIRACLE food. But that six-pound gain...no, it wasn't water weight! Also, I couldn't really afford the cost, even of Pizza Hut, which was basically fancy frozen pizza anyway (you could see the semi with the PH logo on the trailer pull up every so often to offload supplies). (I blush to say, I ate there not just because of pizza, but because I could put it on a credit card :huh: McDonalds would not take credit cards for McNuggets which was my other school night food. I have since gotten MUCH smarter about credit and about eating like a grownup! :rolleyes: )

I began eating at least a couple of ounces of cheese every day, and from then on....no problem! Sometimes I baked cheese and pizza sauce in a small oven dish ("spoon pizza"), to get my daily dose of cheese.

Sorry to have interrupted the research review, back to the real science now!

bloviatrix · March 17, 2004

What's YMMV?

klc14 · March 17, 2004

Your Mileage May Vary. Sorry, didn't mean to be cryptic--I think I thought I was typing for a different board, LOL and all that stuff isn't used here much is it?

helenjp · March 17, 2004

Overeating and depression...yeah, I notice this at the sheltered workshop caf that my brother in law attends. He used to eat about half the food on the family dinner table, while the other 4 family members made do with what was left, but a shake-down of his meds seems to have sorted that out.

As for cravings...I wondered what PMS was all about until I turned 40. So now I know. And now that I live in Japan, I've discovered what a Snickers bar is too (never saw one before I moved here). I cannot believe that this item actually passed marketing and product testing and became commercially available...also can't believe that a few times a year I actually go and buy one :raz:

PMS in your 40s is cruel. It means that you are competing with your teenage sons for the same foods...

Calcium supplements for cramps...gave me kidney stones...I never, ever, put anything with added calcium in my mouth these days! The pain of cramps just doesn't compare!

bloviatrix · March 17, 2004

Your Mileage May Vary. Sorry, didn't mean to be cryptic--I think I thought I was typing for a different board, LOL and all that stuff isn't used here much is it?

Others have used it. But I never got around to asking for translation. Thanks.

Susan G · March 17, 2004

Cravings would be the wrong word for my monthly food desires. It's suddenly/awfully urgent obsessions. :blink: Potato pancakes with sour cream and applesauce. Chocolate eclairs. (Three in a row is best). Prosciutto wrapped around sesame breadsticks. Peking duck. Citrus fruits. And a shock collar for my husband if he so much as looks at me cross-eyed!