Maillard and Your Fond

[rotuts]

over here :

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/160121-dinner-2020/page/138/?tab=comments#comment-2251422

 

 

I made a burger cut from its container.  nice browning , nice Jus from fond.

 

MC :

 

https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/the-maillard-reaction/

 

for review .

 

Ive had a very nice multi pan set of 3 mm  copper pans w a SS amalgam surface for years.

 

I gave most of them away , as some were very heavy etc  and not the easiest to clean

 

Ive moved to a T-Fal set :

 

 

price has gone up !

 

so , remember when all the TalkingHeads , ATK  all of them said you brown the meat to seal the juice  in ?

 

made no sense then , and they have moved on to The Ideal Pan for Fond  which makes your sauce :

 

"" non-stick pans are not ideal for Fond.  heavy SS pans make a lot of Pan-Fond.

 

after inhaling my Salisbury Steak-ish dinner , w browning and pan sauce

 

and several more glasses of Tj's table red :

 

Ive decided this :

 

Fond in your pan + Maillard on your meat  ( maybe veg too )  = a constant

 

the constant has to do w temp of the pan,  time in the pan , and surface area of the meat ( veg)

 

its a given value for those elements.

 

in a fancy-pancy thick expensive pan , not non-stick 

 

more Maillard sticks to the pan , and comes off the meat.

 

in a non-stick pan , more maillard sticks tp the meat . thus less in the pan

 

for Sauce.

 

that's my take on this whole nonsense ;  want more mallard-fond in the pan ?  

 

use an expensive thick non stick pan.  thick = even heat , less chance of burning.

 

if your sauce you make from the Fond goes on the Maillard'd meat ,   its going to make little to no difference in the total result.

 

if you use a good quality nonstick pan,   good quality :  even heat.  very easy clean up.

 

InVinoVaritas   for sure !

 

 

now this has not been studied by me scientifically , w micro-scales etc to measure fond etc

 

now days Im just A Theoretician 

 

sometimes a Thirsty One !

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by rotuts (log)

[paulraphael]

I don't know about all that. I do know that deglazing a stainless steel pan cleans it up!

[rotuts]

@paulraphael 

 

yes it does !

 

my question and proposition is different :

 

If the fond is  in the Pan  ( SS or Teflon )

 

did the Pan create it ?

 

out of what ?

 

oh yes, it came  from  the Meat ( veg ) in that pan.

 

so the Fond + the Maillard Reaction =  a constant 

 

no more nor less.

 

Id suggest :

 

and its just me :

 

your SS pan , and I have a few from Fr

 

just does what it does

 

as does a good quality teflon pan , w a descent thickness

 

to not encourage burning.

 

 

 

 

[MokaPot]

Sorry, @rotuts, I want to understand your question, but can't. Could you please try rephrasing it one more time? I use T-fal as well, so I'm interested.

[rotuts]

Im sorry

 

i can be un-clear :

 

there is a reaction called Maillard :

 

this one :

 

https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/the-maillard-reaction/

 

Fond is what's left in your pan , SS or T-Fal

 

its delicious and worth your leaning how to use it for a sauce or a de-glazer.

 

but  the amount of fond in your pan , can only come from the meat-veg that made it

 

SS or T-fal just pull different amounts of Maillard off your meat or veg

 

to to make that fond.

 

in the end , it makes no difference on the type of pan you use

 

for the sum of these two different delicious items.

 

as back when :

 

" sealing the meat , keeps the juices in the meat "

 

is now  :  SS pans make for better Fond 

 

SS pans just take the fond off the surface of the meat

 

they dont create it ,  the mallard reaction just sticks to the pan

 

if you use high quality teflon

 

T-fal or betrer

 

and sue the fond in that pan for a sauce and add it to what made the fond in that pan

 

its going to be the same on your plate  

 

in the end.   and you dont need  a very expensive Ss pan to make that

 

pale of food any better.

 

 

[MokaPot]

OK, got it, @rotuts. You were stating a conclusion (SS vs. Teflon, same total amount of fond, just different locations for the fond). I thought you were asking a question.

[rotuts]

yes, in a way 

 

another way to put it is this :

 

fond is maillard reaction in the pan  not on the meat-veg.

 

that created it.

 

it comes from the meat-veg , and  how its cooked.

 

 

[paulraphael]

There are two basic complaints about teflon pans for traditional sauteeing.

 

One is that you can't really preheat the pan enough to get good browning, without risking damage to the surface. And the teflon does a worse job browning even at the same temperature, because it's a strong insulator, and so slows the transfer of heat to the food. 

 

The other is that the fond doesn't stick to the pan. You get a mix of oil droplets and pan juices floating around together, sizzling and emulsifying. So if you want to make a pan sauce, it's a pain in the ass. What do you do with that glop?

 

Stainless makes it easy. The fond sticks so you can pour off the extra fat. The bright surface makes it easy to see if the fond is browned adequately (but not burnt). And the deglazing both makes a delicious sauce base and cleans the pan. 

[rotuts]

@paulraphael

 

you have made interesting points.

 

some seem outdated to me , based on my personal experience w

 

T-Fal pans.   I do get good browning on my Turkey Burger , and Beef burger.

 

ive posed some pic.  my pans were not damaged.

 

"You get a mix of oil droplets and pan juices floating around together "

 

I have not seen the oil droplets you have mentioned

 

as I Use the T-Fal pans

 

Ive found no pains anywhere where Ive used these pans for sauce for the 

 

final product on the plate .

 

my point was very simple 

 

as I think Flame Wars are from way back when :

 

Pan Fond  + Maillard Rx   is the same in sum  , SS and good quality T-fal pans

 

no more , and no less.

 

I am pleased you enjoy your SS pans

 

i used to , but now Im T-Fal for most things

 

then again , I cook for One

 

and not a Crowd.

 

hope your restaurant will recover and do especially well !

 

Vaccinations For All !

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, paulraphael said:

Stainless makes it easy. The fond sticks so you can pour off the extra fat. The bright surface makes it easy to see if the fond is browned adequately (but not burnt). And the deglazing both makes a delicious sauce base and cleans the pan. 

 

Yep. This isn't happening in non-stick.

 

 

 

 

 

All nice and clean.

[MokaPot]

I caramelize onions (white, round) in T-Fal. I do, indeed, get a fond (which I periodically scrape up to incorporate into the onions). I caramelize the onions until they're dark brown.

 

Next time I fry cubed russet potatoes in my T-Fal pan, I will take photos and post here. I do get nice, browned surfaces.

 

I don't often cook meat steaks at home, so can't attest to that.

[rotuts]

Meat , Veg , SeaFood

 

cant say i know any pan that knows the difference

 

Il stay w my view :

 

Pan-Fond + Maillard on the ( meat , veg seafood , from that pan )

 

is a constant , and best put together , w a sauce ( for the pan-fond )

 

on your plate.

[rotuts]

@weinoo 

 

""   This isn't happening in non-stick  ""

 

well , its happening for me :

 

 

 

all the tasty-ness you see here 

 

I can taste .

 

Maillar-ing , Saucy-ness and etc

 

from a higher-end non-stick pan : T-Fal  this one :

 

 

I have the notion that there are thicker T-Fal pans from GB

 

and Canada.  Id love to try one

 

but being hungry these work very well for me.

 

the Baked potatoes were not involved in these issues .

 

Q.E.D.

 

I am pleased you enjoy your Ss Pans 

 

I did for quite some time, Pans rom FR.

 

https://www.edehillerin.fr/en/all-purpose-pan/384-1099-stove-round-cuprinox-extra-strong-tail-bronze.html#/174-choix_diametre_cm-20

 

but older and much thicker 

 

now I get the above , beyond tasty 

 

from T-Fal , and Im pleased on this plate and many others 

 

to go back :

 

" sealing the meat , keeps the juices in the meat "

 

Fond comes from SS pans 

 

and it does !  but ....

 

Yawn.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by rotuts (log)

[gfweb]

I guess the question is really whether a pan sauce is worth it. 

[rotuts]

@gfweb 

 

"whether a pan sauce is worth it '

 

its always worth it.

 

always  

 

but please don't think that an expensive SS pan 

 

make your dish taster , w more fond you see in that pan.

 

that fond was created from the meat , not out of thin air.

 

Fond ( any decent thick pan , so nor burning ) + Maillard on the meat

 

is a constant .  no more , nor less.

 

 

[weinoo]

Quote

McManus added that they are also great for stir frys to keep the “fond,” or brown bits of residue from cooking meats and vegetables, from sticking to the pan and burning. When using a nonstick pan, the fond will stick to the food and not the pan.

 

Quote

Perfect caramelized onions — along with properly seared steaks — can’t happen without a bit of stickiness. As you cook them, the fond forms at the bottom of the pan. The fond is the sticky brown glaze and tiny particles of browned food that form when the sugars in your food break down. Caramelization turns the simple sugar molecules in an onion into more than a hundred smaller and more interesting compounds, including molecules that give you nutty, toasty, bitter, and even rum-like flavors. Nonstick means no fond, and a plate of steamed onions. Don’t bring those near my French onion soup, please.

Quote

but you know what you won't get? The fond.That's the French term for the layer of browned stuff that builds up on the bottom of a pan when you're roasting meats and vegetables, and what it amounts to is flavor. The fond is a necessary component for delicious pan sauces, stews, braises, and more, and nonstick cookware makes it virtually impossible to develop.

 

 

Argue with them, not me.

[rotuts]

nothing to argue about .

 

fond + maillard = constant

 

equation works for all pans , as long as you don't burn the experiment

[paulraphael]

I've never used those pans, and maybe I don't know what they are. I've used plenty of other non-stick pans (teflon, by many names) and mostly prefer other surfaces for almost everything. Teflon is great for egg cooking (which I almost never do) and it's great for delicate fish with the skin on (but even for this I usually use stainless, mostly just because it's a test of craft ... one I sometimes fail).

 

You keep mentioning fond. In traditional usage, this is juices that have dried onto the bottom of the pan (stuck) and then browned. Does this happen with your pans? The only time I've gotten a fond with non-stick pans, it's been after the pan was already wrecked and didn't have stick resistance anymore. With healthy teflon, the juices don't stick. They mingle with the fat in the pan. How do you separate them and make a pan sauce?

 

There's nothing magical about stainless. It's just useful and useable for just about everything. I've also got cast iron, and spun steel, and some old hard anodized aluminum. But when I'm making a pan sauce, I prefer the stainless, largely because that bright shiny surface makes it easier. I can make a pan sauce on cast iron or anodized aluminum, but I won't really know how brown that fond is. Just because the surface is dark. For expediency I do it all the time; it's just not the best tool for the job.

 

I just looked at the t-fal site to see if they're using some alternative coating. They don't seem to say (which suggests teflon). And they say not to cook with high heat, and that the pans are oven-safe to just 350F. That's not sauté temperature. I have a  pretty anemic range, which means pre-heating a pan is more important than if you have 25,000 BTU/hr raging out of a burner. If I'm sauteeing anything substantial, that pan will be around 475 when the food goes in. But even if you've got a powerful range and careful technique, you're probably going to preheat a pan above 400 for a good seer. This breaks down teflon over time. It's why most people's non-stick starts to stick. 

 

I think you can make anything work. And with enough experience, you can develop techniques around your cookware. I'm just not sold on non-stick pans as the best choice for general purpose use, especially sauteeing.  The technical reasons people like Mitch and me saute on sticky pans aren't just hot air. 

[rotuts]

@paulraphael 

 

""  I'm just not sold on non-stick pans as the best choice "

 

"" The technical reasons people like Mitch and me saute on sticky pans aren't just hot air.  ""

 

OK  not the  point  Im making.   my point is very very simple 

 

 SS is outstanding   not the question here

 

keep them   enjoy them  I did and do !

 

but ....

 

Raymond Blanc

 

only has , I think 2 Michelin stars:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Blanc

 

and , yes , in the manner of ATK

 

has his own cooking line of pots and pans ;

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Raymond-Blanc-Professional-Anodised-Cookware/dp/B003P4EKB8

 

used in his restaurant 

 

worth a look if you can find them :

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01bqwlm/episodes/guide

 

not to drive them point into the ground:

 

I have both types :

 

Id love to try one of RB pans

 

or Jamie Oliver's :

 

https://www.tefal.com/Cookware-&-Kitchenware/Pots-&-Pans/Cooking-like-Jamie-Oliver/Jamie-Oliver-Stainless-Steel/p/R-jamie-oliver-stainless-steel

 

this sort of pan is available in Canada , I hear

 

my point was very simple :

 

Fond  ( any pan's ) + Maillard ( from that same pan ) = a constant  ( 0n your plate )

 

the pans should be well made and thick enough not to scorch or burn in spots

 

no more . no less.  heavy well made SS pans work well w repeated abuse etc

 

but ....   I can do as well w similar ingredients w T-Fal.

 

Im betting if Raymond Blanc switched to heavy copper // SS pans from France

 

might he get that third star ?  laugh a little here please !

 

unlikely.  

 

ATK  Oooing An Awiing about Fond in a 200 $ pan ?

 

come on , enjoy what you have 

 

I do and sometimes do w my FR copper SS  pans 

 

now    T-fal is OK for me.

 

USA  not Canadien or RB's pans

 

sigh.  Id love to try them 

 

I might get 1/8's of a star if I could move up.!

 

P.S. :    Im guessing my T-Fal pans would not stand up

 

that well w restaurant abuse.   

 

but I dont abuse them .

 

back to a cleaning issue :

 

 

this might or might not need some BarKeepersFriend

 

or not.  My FR SS copper pans dd from time to time

 

T-Fal does not.

 

did not mean to touch a nerve or two.

 

really.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by rotuts (log)

[weinoo]

2 hours ago, rotuts said:

my point was very simple :

 

Fond  ( any pan's ) + Maillard ( from that same pan ) = a constant  ( 0n your plate )

 

Our point is even simpler...

In a non-stick pan, fond does not happen. It's impossible, because nothing sticks.

[rotuts]

so you say

 

but I Eat :

 

 

mallard + fond  , from non-stick pan

 

 

sauce  from fond from non-stick pan

 

no more , nor less.

 

Q.E.D.

 

did IO forget to mention Yum Yum ?

 

sorry

 

one more time :

 

Yum Yum

Edited July 3, 2020 by rotuts (log)

[weinoo]

I'm sure you're having a delicious pan sauce, but you're not making it from any fond...

 

Quote

Deglazing a pan involves adding liquid, such as stock or wine, to a pan to loosen and dissolve food particles that are stuck to the bottom after cooking or searing. The cooked food particles, known as fond, are the source of immense flavor. The flavorful mixture produced by deglazing can be used to make a sauce

 

 

[rotuts]

Yawn

[paulraphael]

Mitch is right, you're doing something different, however good it might be.

 

It's also worth noting that sautéing / deglazing / making a pan sauce is one particular set of techniques among countless others. It happens to be central to how I think about cooking and sauces, but that just reflects my background. The world is full of brilliant cooks and chefs who hardly ever use these techniques. They might have different opinions about pans than I do. You're doing your own version of a pan sauce. I trust you that it's delicious. I'm also pretty sure it tastes different from ones made from fond.

 

I staged at a high-end sea food restaurant several years ago, one that was especially known for its sauces. I didn't witness a single pan sauce being made in my 2 days there. They cooked about half the fish on teflon, half on spun steel. A couple of dishes they cooked on a cast iron grill pan. Different visions, different styles, different tools.

 

You're bringing up money ... I haven't shopped for pans in ages, but I see perfectly good looking disk-bottom stainless pans, and even some clad ones for cheap. There's used to be a decent looking line of pans exclusive to K-mart. Another possibility is commercial aluminum pans (just bare aluminum). These work as well as the best ss pans, as long as you're not cooking with very acidic ingredients. And they're cheap and nearly indestructible. The cheaper ss pans probably wouldn't hold up too long to abuse, but you've said that's not an issue for you. 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by paulraphael (log)

[rotuts]

I apologize for not being articulate enough to make my point.

 

a simple one.

 

Ive toughed a nerve , it seems.

 

sorry.

 

one last time , then Iill get my coat :

 

Fond ( from any pan )  + Maillard'ing ( from that same pan ) = a constant ( more or less )

 

they meat up on the dish where they are recombined,

 

giving you more or less the same thing in the end :

 

Stuff on a Plate , that you then gobble up.

 

how can it  possibly be suggested that 

 

Raymond Blanc , w 2 stars , 

 

using non-stick pans

 

isn't making Exceptionally Fine French Style Food

 

Style :   i.e. Sauce based ?

 

of course , one might say that if he moved to heavy cooper FR SS lined food

 

he might get that last and third star ?

 

Ive mentioned this before :

 

In College , a radical book came out :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

 

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions 

 

it was so Hot Hot Hot ,   it was assigned to three of may course , in order 

 

in a nutshell  , as tis is a food group :

 

Science doesn't march on , on a continuous road

 

it advances because Scientist get old and die.

 

and their out of date theories are taken to their graves .

 

this was Way Back Then , of course .

 

now  its all on FB.

 

I stand behind

 

F + M = a constant ( sur le plate )

 

thank you , 

 

and I mean that 

 

for thinking about this.