Pâte de Fruits (Fruit Paste/Fruit Jellies) (Part 2)

[Rajala]

Just now, Pastrypastmidnight said:

I let mine set, cut some and saved some out to pipe. I pulsed it in my food processor with a little corn syrup and a pinch of citric acid until loose and then processed. Tasted great. It piped just fine, but it’s pretty stiff. It didn’t level at all, but it was meant to be the top layer so I piped ganache over one and praline over another. I need to cap them some time today. I’ll share a picture of how they turned out once I know. 

 

That's usually how I do it with some kind of fruit compote. But this self level thing... I've seen people claiming they have a pate de fruits which is totally levelled out. Looks amazing. I want that.  

[Kerry Beal]

You can't pipe it into molds before it sets because it's too hot and will melt the chocolate shell

[Jim D.]

@Rajala, if you check the previous thread on pipeable pâte de fruit, you will see various approaches to this goal. Kate Weiser appears to be the champ at accomplishing this (I bought a box of her chocolates, all pâte de fruit fillings, to check her out, and they were delicious). I don't know what technique she uses (I see that she teaches classes on her techniques, but Dallas is a bit far to travel for me). The method I now use is with Pomona's pectin, a low-methoxyl pectin. I include a recipe on the page to which I linked above. I have found, after dozens of times, that--in my opinion--the greatly reduced amount of cooking time allows the fruit flavor to come through much better. This is a forgiving pectin--if it ends up not firm enough, you can reheat it and cook it for a little longer. I have played around with the amount of pectin and have made a few "refinements" to the recipe I posted there. It is pipeable and can be flattened out with piping technique. The big issue with using pâte de fruit in a bonbon is the water activity, which tends to be high because of the liquid necessary to make it pipeable (whether you leave liquid in by taking the PdF off the stove early or add liquid to liquefy it later).

 

I was inspired to experiment by, among other things, this quote from Michael Laiskonis:

 

Quote

 

Part of what makes pâte de fruit boring is that because of the need for high solids content (sugar), most of the potential flavor is obscured by sweetness. To this end, I’ve been playing around with sugar alcohols and even low DE maltodextrin [1. Here, DE refers to “dextrose equivalence.”] to reduce sweetness, with the end goal of perhaps approaching what one might even call a “savory” pâte de fruit. There may be limits to how much sucrose can be replaced with other sweeteners, but I hope to discover just what those limits are.

 

So my technique uses sorbitol to get the necessary solids to reduce the Aw (it has the added benefit of being less sweet than sucrose). If a person has objections to using sorbitol, then this method will not work. I also add to the solids by supplementing fruit purée with some of the same fruit dried (if it exists). I have done this with apricot, cherry, and pear.

[Rajala]

Thanks @Jim D.. Didn't think about reading the thread from the beginning.

 

I think I'll just start with trying to make a "normal" one, since I've never made one at all.

[Tri2Cook]

5 hours ago, Rajala said:

 

I have like a kilo of Pectin NH, do you guys think that will work for this or would I need something like the kinds you discuss above?

 

I'm going to leave whether it will work or not to others who have some actual experience attempting to use if for this purpose but I use NH for making soft, thermally-reversible gels (neutral and fruit glazes and similar). It's a LM pectin (it requires calcium to gel so it isn't dependent on sugar levels, but it's calcium source is included in it's makeup which is why recipes using it don't generally call for an added calcium source) that's been modified to be thermoreversible. You now have me wondering if this may be a route to a pate de fruit-like product that can be piped.

[Jim D.]

4 minutes ago, Tri2Cook said:

I'm going to leave whether it will work or not to others who have some actual experience attempting to use if for this purpose but I use NH for making soft, thermally-reversible gels (neutral and fruit glazes and similar). It's a LM pectin (it requires calcium to gel so it isn't dependent on sugar levels, but it's calcium source is included in it's makeup which is why recipes using it don't generally call for an added calcium source) that's been modified to be thermoreversible. You now have me wondering if this may be a route to a pate de fruit-like product that can be piped.

You are describing Pomona's pectin. That's exactly what I use for pipeable PdF--just made some strawberry a few days ago.

[Kerry Beal]

1 minute ago, Jim D. said:

You are describing Pomona's pectin. That's exactly what I use for pipeable PdF--just made some strawberry a few days ago.

Pomona's I think of as one of the low methoxyl pectins - activated by calcium but I don't think of it as thermoreversible. The NH requires a lot less calcium and is used in glazes and such - more thermoreversible. 

[Jim D.]

1 minute ago, Kerry Beal said:

Pomona's I think of as one of the low methoxyl pectins - activated by calcium but I don't think of it as thermoreversible. The NH requires a lot less calcium and is used in glazes and such - more thermoreversible. 

Pomona's is quite reversible. It can be reheated to increase its firmness, or liquid can be added to decrease it, and it will still jell. In my recipes a tsp. or less calcium water is required. I don't know whether that can be considered a lot more calcium since I don't know the other low methoxyl pectins you are describing.

[Kerry Beal]

Just now, Jim D. said:

Pomona's is quite reversible. It can be reheated to increase its firmness, or liquid can be added to decrease it, and it will still jell. In my recipes a tsp. or less calcium water is required. I don't know whether that can be considered a lot more calcium since I don't know the other low methoxyl pectins you are describing.

When I've used the pectin NH it has been for glazes - vs the Pomona's which I've used for jams and I used it in addition to starch in a turkish delight recently. Very different textures. 

 

I don't know how well you can determine the texture from a picture - but here is where I last used it - 

 

[Jim D.]

28 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

When I've used the pectin NH it has been for glazes - vs the Pomona's which I've used for jams and I used it in addition to starch in a turkish delight recently. Very different textures. 

 

I don't know how well you can determine the texture from a picture - but here is where I last used it - 

 

Beautiful dessert you made. It's difficult to tell the texture from a photo. Certainly the Pomona's people think their pectin is low-methoxyl--that's what they call it. And its final texture depends on how long you cook it (and how much pectin you have added, of course). Their recipe for PdF calls for doubling the amount of pectin as is used for jelly. I have made traditional PdF, and I am unable to tell the difference between that and one made with Pomona's, but that may be my lack of subtlety. In making a pipeable PdF I am aiming for something softer than the traditional PdF. And, in my humble opinion, the short cooking time of a Pomona's pectin recipe maintains more fruit flavor. And then there is not having to have a refractometer.

[Kerry Beal]

5 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

Beautiful dessert you made. It's difficult to tell the texture from a photo. Certainly the Pomona's people think their pectin is low-methoxyl--that's what they call it. And its final texture depends on how long you cook it (and how much pectin you have added, of course). Their recipe for PdF calls for doubling the amount of pectin as is used for jelly. I have made traditional PdF, and I am unable to tell the difference between that and one made with Pomona's, but that may be my lack of subtlety. In making a pipeable PdF I am aiming for something softer than the traditional PdF. And, in my humble opinion, the short cooking time of a Pomona's pectin recipe maintains more fruit flavor. And then there is not having to have a refractometer.

Indeed - nice to be able to make a PdF with less sugar - and more fruit flavor. Are you saying that the Pomona based PdF is still too sweet?

 

Can you PM the recipe with Pomona? I have some LM pectin that I can play with and I'd love to give it a try.

 

Both NH and Pomona are low methoxyl - but the NH has been further processed to make it more thermoreversible. 

[Tri2Cook]

I've never worked with the Pomona's pectin, it's on my list since following along with Jim's experiments but as yet undone. Pectin NH doesn't have a packet of calcium, it has a calcium salt as part of the mix and thus has a fixed ratio used as is. You can decrease the thermoreversibility of NH pectin by increasing the calcium level in the solution with an external calcium source so maybe if you get the pectin/calcium ratio to be the same with both, they'll behave in the same way. But that's 100% speculation, not something I've actually researched.

[Jim D.]

35 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Indeed - nice to be able to make a PdF with less sugar - and more fruit flavor. Are you saying that the Pomona based PdF is still too sweet?

 

Can you PM the recipe with Pomona? I have some LM pectin that I can play with and I'd love to give it a try.

 

Both NH and Pomona are low methoxyl - but the NH has been further processed to make it more thermoreversible. 

I think I wasn't completely clear:  Pomona's recipe for PdF still calls for about the same amount of sugar as a traditional one (it calls for doubling the amount specified for jams and jellies). The recipe I am using substitutes sorbitol for some of the sugar, thus lowering the perceived sweetness. I also use the optional lemon juice (regardless of pectin content of the fruit) in all recipes because it too counteracts the sweetness. It's mostly the extra fruit flavor that attracts me to Pomona's.

 

Did you want me to PM you the official Pomona's recipe for PdF or what I use in my recipes?

[Kerry Beal]

19 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

I think I wasn't completely clear:  Pomona's recipe for PdF still calls for about the same amount of sugar as a traditional one (it calls for doubling the amount specified for jams and jellies). The recipe I am using substitutes sorbitol for some of the sugar, thus lowering the perceived sweetness. I also use the optional lemon juice (regardless of pectin content of the fruit) in all recipes because it too counteracts the sweetness. It's mostly the extra fruit flavor that attracts me to Pomona's.

 

Did you want me to PM you the official Pomona's recipe for PdF or what I use in my recipes?

Both if you would - I'd love to see how you changed it.

[Jim D.]

2 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Both if you would - I'd love to see how you changed it.

 

The recipe for Pomona's PdF is here: http://www.pomonapectin.com/recipes/jelled-fruit-candy-low-sweetener/

 

It is based on the recipe for jam and jelly, found here: http://www.pomonapectin.com/directions/

 

Note that although the PdF recipe says it is "low sweetener," it also calls for the maximum amount of sugar, so I'm not sure why they call it "low." Let's face it: there is no escaping that PdF has a lot of sugar.

 

My version of the recipe is as follows. It is for strawberry because that recipe doesn't use dried fruit and so is simpler.

 

400g sugar
22g Pomona's pectin
980g strawberry purée
2 tsp. calcium water
44g lemon juice

 

280g sugar
120g glucose
96g sorbitol

 

In a small bowl whisk together the first amount of sugar and the pectin.

 

Put the purée in a pot and add the calcium water and lemon juice, then bring to a boil.

 

Whisking constantly, add the sugar and pectin mixture to the purée and cook until the mixture returns to a full boil. Remove from heat.

 

Add the second amount of sugar, the glucose, and the sorbitol. Return the pot to the heat. Stir thoroughly to dissolve the sugar. Bring the mixture to a full boil, stirring constantly. Boil for about 1-2 minutes, then remove from heat. To test for thickness, put a small amount of the mixture on a plate, place in the refrigerator, and test after a few minutes. If the mixture seems to be too thick, add some liquid, then bring back to the boil. If it seems too thin, boil for another minute. This adjusting can be performed even after the PdF has cooled. Alternatively, if the PdF seems too thick when it is cool enough to pipe, it can be loosened with a whisk or immersion blender. Any additional flavoring (such as fruit compound or liquor) can be added when the PdF is beginning to cool.

 

[Kerry Beal]

I've got all kinds of calcium compounds around - which one is used to make the calcium water? What's the formula?

[Jim D.]

6 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

I've got all kinds of calcium compounds around - which one is used to make the calcium water? What's the formula?

This is what Pomona's says:

 

BEFORE YOU START JAMMING MAKE CALCIUM WATER! 1. Put 1/2 teaspoon white calcium powder and 1/2 cup water in a small, clear jar with lid. Shake well. 2. Lasts many months in refrigerator. Freeze for long-term storage. Do not discard unless settled white powder discolors or you see mold. Shake well before using.

 

The ingredient list says the package contains monocalcium phosphate.

 

Is that enough to identify it?

[Pastrypastmidnight]

55 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

 

The recipe for Pomona's PdF is here: http://www.pomonapectin.com/recipes/jelled-fruit-candy-low-sweetener/

 

It is based on the recipe for jam and jelly, found here: http://www.pomonapectin.com/directions/

 

Note that although the PdF recipe says it is "low sweetener," it also calls for the maximum amount of sugar, so I'm not sure why they call it "low." Let's face it: there is no escaping that PdF has a lot of sugar.

 

My version of the recipe is as follows. It is for strawberry because that recipe doesn't use dried fruit and so is simpler.

 

400g sugar
22g Pomona's pectin
980g strawberry purée
2 tsp. calcium water
44g lemon juice

 

280g sugar
120g glucose
96g sorbitol

 

In a small bowl whisk together the first amount of sugar and the pectin.

 

Put the purée in a pot and add the calcium water and lemon juice, then bring to a boil.

 

Whisking constantly, add the sugar and pectin mixture to the purée and cook until the mixture returns to a full boil. Remove from heat.

 

Add the second amount of sugar, the glucose, and the sorbitol. Return the pot to the heat. Stir thoroughly to dissolve the sugar. Bring the mixture to a full boil, stirring constantly. Boil for about 1-2 minutes, then remove from heat. To test for thickness, put a small amount of the mixture on a plate, place in the refrigerator, and test after a few minutes. If the mixture seems to be too thick, add some liquid, then bring back to the boil. If it seems too thin, boil for another minute. This adjusting can be performed even after the PdF has cooled. Alternatively, if the PdF seems too thick when it is cool enough to pipe, it can be loosened with a whisk or immersion blender. Any additional flavoring (such as fruit compound or liquor) can be added when the PdF is beginning to cool.

 

What is the viscosity like when you pipe it? Is it fairly firm holding peaks, or does it level out. 

 

Thank you for sharing all of your experiments—you’ve been so generous with your results, advice and discoveries. I really appreciate it!

[Kerry Beal]

47 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

This is what Pomona's says:

 

BEFORE YOU START JAMMING MAKE CALCIUM WATER! 1. Put 1/2 teaspoon white calcium powder and 1/2 cup water in a small, clear jar with lid. Shake well. 2. Lasts many months in refrigerator. Freeze for long-term storage. Do not discard unless settled white powder discolors or you see mold. Shake well before using.

 

The ingredient list says the package contains monocalcium phosphate.

 

Is that enough to identify it?

Yup - got that I believe 

[Tri2Cook]

9 hours ago, Rajala said:

 

I have like a kilo of Pectin NH, do you guys think that will work for this
 

Google tracked down a few pectin NH pate de fruit recipes including a passion fruit and a blood orange version. Haven't done them, can't vouch for them but maybe they'll help.

[Jim D.]

20 minutes ago, Pastrypastmidnight said:

What is the viscosity like when you pipe it? Is it fairly firm holding peaks, or does it level out. 

 

Thank you for sharing all of your experiments—you’ve been so generous with your results, advice and discoveries. I really appreciate it!

Thanks for the kind words. I have learned so much from eG--and am still learning.

 

Whether the PdF flattens out, depends on how long you cook it, and that is always an experiment, given the different viscosities of fruits. It does not flatten out as a gianduja might, but if you have a narrow opening in the piping bag and hold it close to the shell as you pipe, then raise it quickly as you finish, the PdF does very well at staying where you put it. After all, the only way you could have it self-leveling is if it were 100F or some such temp, and it would have so much liquid that the Aw would be affected (besides melting the shell). But the best part is that after it has set overnight, you can usually take a gloved finger or piece of plastic wrap and flatten it. By the way, I learned from reading a Grewling paper about migration of fats and liquids inside bonbons that if you plan two layers, the PdF should be covered in a layer of cocoa butter before adding another layer.

[Rajala]

14 hours ago, Tri2Cook said:

I'm going to leave whether it will work or not to others who have some actual experience attempting to use if for this purpose but I use NH for making soft, thermally-reversible gels (neutral and fruit glazes and similar). It's a LM pectin (it requires calcium to gel so it isn't dependent on sugar levels, but it's calcium source is included in it's makeup which is why recipes using it don't generally call for an added calcium source) that's been modified to be thermoreversible. You now have me wondering if this may be a route to a pate de fruit-like product that can be piped.

 

Yeah, I bought it for making neutral glaze. But it's not like you use a lot of it. Even when you make a large batch of neutral glaze.  

 

However, I've used this pectin for making fruit compotes that I let set, and mix with a hand blender to make it a bit liquid - to be able to pipe it in bonbons. So works for that as well, at least. But I would really love to get that PDF (took me a while to figure out what PDF meant haha, I'm damaged by computer talk) texture in the bonbon.

[Sadie90]

On 4/22/2018 at 2:59 PM, Kerry Beal said:

I think the Cuisine Tech is the one you want of those two. On their website it just says apple pectin where the other says apple pectin with sucrose. 

 

If you can find the Louis Francois yellow pectin at Signature - it is for sure the stuff you want - page 6 on this list.

 

 

 

Thanks and also thank you to the other Canadians who offered some help. I have checked out sites like l'epicerie but the shipping also killed it. Also, how does one order from Signature? 

 

I have found someone saying they used this one: Modernist Pantry slow set HM pectin they are also in the States but for 2lbs, shipping is $16 via First Class mail which is not bad...

 

but it does say that it is standardized with dextrose. Honestly, most apple pectins I have found all say they have some sort of sugar in them. Is this just how it is? Do the Boiron recipes call for 100% pectin? 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Sadie90 (log)

[Kerry Beal]

56 minutes ago, Sadie90 said:

 

Thanks and also thank you to the other Canadians who offered some help. I have checked out sites like l'epicerie but the shipping also killed it. Also, how does one order from Signature? 

 

I have found someone saying they used this one: Modernist Pantry slow set HM pectin they are also in the States but for 2lbs, shipping is $16 via First Class mail which is not bad...

 

but it does say that it is standardized with dextrose. Honestly, most apple pectins I have found all say they have some sort of sugar in them. Is this just how it is? Do the Boiron recipes call for 100% pectin? 

 

 

 

 

PM me your e-mail address - I'll pass it along to Lianne at Signature and get her to contact you.

 

The Boiron recipes just call for apple pectin.

 

If you are passing through Burlington - I can give you some apple pectin to get you started.

[Sadie90]

2 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

PM me your e-mail address - I'll pass it along to Lianne at Signature and get her to contact you.

 

The Boiron recipes just call for apple pectin.

 

If you are passing through Burlington - I can give you some apple pectin to get you started.

 

Ok! Will do, I did email them but this is even better. Thank you!

 

That is so nice of you, but don't worry, I feel like I am getting closer to sourcing the right stuff! Do you make and sell PDF's by the way for people to buy? I'm having a hard time finding any PDFs in Toronto so that I can see what commercial products feel like texture wise. Can't find any...

 

From the best test batch I finally accomplished, I find their texture to be basically like a set jam that breaks apart in your mouth, with non-existent bite/chew? Does this make sense? The pictures make them look a lot denser that what I made.