Anyone know the hold time to pasteurize chicken from Listeria?

[torolover]

I'm still confused how long to hold the temp to pasteurize chicken.  According to Modern Cuisine's Extended and Simplified Table, once the core reaches 150F, it only takes only 1 min 10 seconds, to pasteurize.   Is this good enough to eat safely? What about pasteurizing for Listeria?   At 140F the table saids it only takes 11 min. 34 seconds to pasteurize. 

 

When I read the recipe from MC at Home, it saids, at 140F, to hold for 20 minutes to pasteurize chicken. The original Modernist Cuisine table saids only 11 min 34 seconds. Which one is correct?

 

I want to make sure I'm eating my chicken breasts safely!

 

Thanks!

Edited October 24, 2014 by torolover (log)

[Okanagancook]

checkout Douglas Baldwin, here:  http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Poultry_and_Eggs

Depends on the thickness of the meat.

[paulraphael]

There's no lysteria on the interior of the meat. Pasteurizing to the core is a good idea for cook/chill or if you're serving anyone who's immune compromised, but I wouldn't bother if eating right away.

 

If you need to pasteurize the core at 140F you have to hold for 20 minutes.

 

Here's a graph from SV dash (water bath temp. 61C). I arbitrarily chose 20mm for the thickness.

Edited October 25, 2014 by paulraphael (log)

[paulraphael]

At 150F / 65.5C, the core will be pasteurized before it reaches final temperature. There's no required hold time.

 

This is with a water bath temp. of 66.5C:

Edited October 25, 2014 by paulraphael (log)

[torolover]

Thanks for the tips everyone!  I'm NOT looking for the TOTAL time of cooking the chicken, I'm simply looking for the HOLD TIME to pasteurize it once it reaches the core temp.

 

I'm looking for the HOLD TIME, because I often cook chicken breasts in hot water(190F) and try to rapidly get the core temp to 140F or 150F.

 

I can probably get the core temp to 140F in less then 5 minutes.  Then I add cold water to keep the water temp around 140F.  So do I only need another 11min 34 seconds to pasteurize it or 20 min?

 

Seems like it's very hard to find this online and Modernist Cuisine and MC at home has conflicting numbers.

[AlaMoi]

what specific germies are you pasteurizing for?

 

the "instant / fast kill" temperature varies

 

salmonella - 131'F

listeria - 158'F

e-coli (the xx57 strain) - 160'F

 

time-to-death at lower temps varies by bug.

 

if you research 10-log reductions by temp for the specific bug, that may produce more results.

[paulraphael]

Thanks for the tips everyone!  I'm NOT looking for the TOTAL time of cooking the chicken, I'm simply looking for the HOLD TIME to pasteurize it once it reaches the core temp.

 

I'm looking for the HOLD TIME, because I often cook chicken breasts in hot water(190F) and try to rapidly get the core temp to 140F or 150F.

 

I posted it. Look at the screen grabs I posted from SV dash. The difference in time between the core reaching temperature and Lysteria reaching 6.5D reduction is what you're looking for.

 

At 140F it's 20 minutes; at 150F, you don't need any additional hold time.

 

If you're seeing different answers looking at tables, it's because people base tables on different fudge factors to keep things simple. In some cases it may be that they're using different theoretical models of pathogen behavior, or different standards of pasteurization (most people use 6.5D reduction, but I AlaMoi mentioned 10D reduction, which may a different standard).  All of this is modeling, which means it's just estimation. 

[torolover]

Thanks for the tips paulrafael!  I bought the SV dash and looked at your chart.

 

I understand that at a 150F water bath you don't need any additional time because by the time the core reaches 150F, it's already pasteurized.

 

The thing is I'm not cooking in a water bath at 150F for 30 or 40 minutes.

 

I'm cooking in a pot of hot water of 180F- 190F for only about 10 minutes.  In about 10 minutes my chicken breast will reach a core of 150F.  Keep in mind after 10 minutes, the water will have cooled off to around 155F or 160F.  So once my chicken has reached a core of 150F, I'm only concerned with how long to keep the water temp at 150F to pasteurize the chicken.

 

Are you saying my chicken breast is safe to eat right after the core hits 150F and I don't I need a hold time?

 

This is why I'm so interested in trying to find HOLD times for chicken at 150F and 140F.

[Martin Fisher]

Do a search for FSIS, poultry, pasteurization, time, temperature, lethality....that should lead you to the info you seek.

[torolover]

Do a search for FSIS, poultry, pasteurization, time, temperature, lethality....that should lead you to the info you seek.

I did.  This is why it's confusing.  FSIS saids at 140F, it takes 12 minutes.  However in Modernist Cuisine at Home is saids to hold for minimum of 20 min.!  Which one is right?  and to make it more confusing the original Modernist Cuisine saids to hold at 12 min. at 140F!

 

Also the FSIS is a table for Salmonella, what about Listeria?  Is the Salmonella table all I have to be concerned about to eat my chicken safely?

[Martin Fisher]

Some of the charts I've seen have times and temps for both Salmonella and Listeria.

The FSIS times are fine but sounds like the MC@H times are even safer....probably a liability concern. 

[rotuts]

enjoyed the SVDash pics

 

the legend is not really clear, but it makes sense that the dashed-line is surface.

[EnriqueB]

I already answered you in the other similar topic you opened on the same issue that likely one source and the other were considering different set of pathogenic bacteria (i.e. only salmonella vs salmonella & listeria).

 

In order to compare sources you also need to check out their definition of "pasteurization", which happens to not always be the same. Verify the number of log-reductions (or "D")  that the stated pasteurization levels achieve in each table. Some tables are intended for any population and as such are conservative and chose target reductions that fit inmuno-depressed people, whereas some other tables are for healthy non-inmuno-depressed people or for shorter conservation times and chose lower D-reductions. Even regulations differ in this respect between countries or geographic areas. Pasteurization is not just a "yes/no" perfectly defined concept with a single definition.

[nickrey]

I think you are missing the point.

 

If it's already pasteurised and you hold it at 140F, you can hold it indefinitely without it suddenly becoming unpasteurised if you hold it at a high enough temperature. The time to pasteurisation is the graph that paulraphael put in earlier.

 

If you go below 55C (131F) then you start moving into more dangerous territory if you hold it longer than four hours. This is because pasteruisation does not destroy bacteria (only sterilisation does that). Instead it reduces bacteria to levels that will not cause food poisoning, even in immuno-suppressed individuals. If you go below 55C (ok, it's really 54.4C), you can produce an environment that is conducive to incubating the small amount of bacteria that may be present, resulting in large amounts of bacteria that could cause food poisoning.

 

When you hold at 55C or higher, however, the meat will still cook. That means that it can become unpleasantly mushy over time.

 

Simple answer: cook to pasteurisation and you can hold it at any temperature higher than 55C for a few hours at least without either breeding bacteria or spoiling the meat.

Edited October 30, 2014 by nickrey (log)

[nickrey]

Rereading the thread, I can see where your question is coming from.

 

The graph that Paulraphael included above shows sufficient reduction of both pathogens around 20 minutes after the core reaches temperature. Listeria is slightly slower in its reduction but not in a practical sense. Thus 20 minutes holding is the answer to your question if you are holding it at 66.5C or above.

 

With your varying temperatures, you just need to ensure that the temperature is at or above this level for the entire time after the meat reaches your core temperature.

 

Using a higher cooking temperature to start off with moves you more towards conventional cooking with a gradient in doneness from the outside (high temperature) to the inside. I'm not sure why you would want to do this.

 

One also has to consider that the mathematical models sitting behind sous vide dash and Douglas Baldwin's tables are based on constant temperatures. Might it not be better if you were to try to make your sous vide cooking process more conventional so you can use the resources that are available.

[torolover]

Thanks for the tips everyone!  Really appreciate it!

 

I cook chicken breast almost every day before work,  so I don't have time to wait 50-60 min at 140F for a thick breast to get pasteurized.  On the other hand I don't want to cook my breasts to 165F in boiling water either because it will be too dry.  I'm looking for a happy medium.

 

I figured if I put my chicken breast into boiling water and take off the lid, it probably will take around 10 min. for the core to get to 140F or 150F.  Once it hits 140F or 150F, I just need to hold that temp for the appropriate time to make sure it's safe to eat.  I usually put cold water to bring down the temp once the cores hit 140F or 150F.

 

I think I will stick to 150F, which only takes 5 min to pasteurize.  Since it takes about 10 min with boiling water to get the core to 150F, I only need a total time of 15 min. to cook it safely.   Keep in mind once the core hits 150F, I COOL DOWN the water to 151 or 152F.

 

It I try to cook it to 140F, it would take me 30 min or more to cook it safely.  10 min in boiling water, then another 20min hold temp of 140F to eat it safely.

 

I know the breast won't be completely 150F or 140F like a true sous vide breast,  but it will still be a lot better  then cooking it to 165F!

 

Thanks again!

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Why not cook sous vide to pasteurization, chill in an ice bath, and store in the refrigerator until needed?

[hainanchicken]

@paulraphael, is there an alternative nowadays to the SV Dash app you used to get those charts? I tried to find this in the iOS App Store, but it doesn't seem to exist.

 

I've been looking at doing SV chicken breast to 140F, but it takes way too long to get the core to 140F and then wait another 20 minutes to pasteurize. I assume most of the bacteria lives on the surface, so is it safe to let the core cook to 140F and then stop cooking, since the surface would have been at 140F for longer than 20 minutes?

[blue_dolphin]

37 minutes ago, hainanchicken said:

is there an alternative nowadays to the SV Dash app you used to get those charts? I tried to find this in the iOS App Store, but it doesn't seem to exist.

 

Did you review the tables on Douglas Baldwin's site?  @Okanagancook linked to it in the second post in this thread.

[btbyrd]

@hainanchicken You don't need to pasteurize in the first place unless you have a special reason for wanting to do so. 

[hainanchicken]

@blue_dolphin I was referring to the continuous graphs plotted in the images, where it shows the listeria (surface) and listeria (core) lines.

 

@btbyrd If I don't pasteurize, doesn't that mean I need a super fresh chicken? If a raw chicken breast had been sitting inside my fridge for a day and then I took it out, would I still have 4 hours of leeway without pasteurization within which to cook and then eat the chicken?

Edited January 21, 2018 by hainanchicken (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, hainanchicken said:

@paulraphael, is there an alternative nowadays to the SV Dash app you used to get those charts? I tried to find this in the iOS App Store, but it doesn't seem to exist.

 

I've been looking at doing SV chicken breast to 140F, but it takes way too long to get the core to 140F and then wait another 20 minutes to pasteurize. I assume most of the bacteria lives on the surface, so is it safe to let the core cook to 140F and then stop cooking, since the surface would have been at 140F for longer than 20 minutes?

 

I don't understand the "way too long" part.  Pasteurize the chicken breast and it can sit in the refrigerator for weeks until needed.

 

[btbyrd]

Pasteurization is usually only recommended if you're you're going to cook-chill-store or are serving food to people with compromised immune systems. It's not required for cooking SV poultry or for SV cooking generally.