Wine & Spirits Bargains at the PLCB (Part 2)

[Jack Sprat]

Hi all,

New to eGullet, but excited to have found it.

I really liked the CS Kaiken Ultra. But actually enjoyed the Kaiken I had previously even more. It wasn't the Ultra, but was still 03 and labeled as an Argentinian Malbec instead of a Mendoza Malbec. It was outstanding for the same price. Actually discovered the Ultra when I went back to buy up all of the aforementioned Malbec and it was gone, replaced by the Ultra which subsequently became a CS.

Anyone know anywhere I can find the original? I've checked Total Wine in DE and State Line in Elkton but without any luck. Anyone else get to try it?

[Capaneus]

I'd vote for the:

                        #1. '01 Sette Ponte Oreno

                        #2. '01 Sequoia Grove Reserve Cab

                        #3. '01 Trilogy

                        #4. 'oo Cosentino "The Poet"

                        #5. '01 The Fifteen Grenache

just my 2oz worth.

Best,

Mike

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Hi Mike:

I like those too, I still have bottles of #1 to #4. Do you know if I need to think about drinking these or will they keep a while? They are stored properly.

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I last opened a bottle of the Cosentino 6-8 months ago, and thought then it needed a couple of years to come together. Opinions differed, as I recall.

[Sebastian]

I like those too, I still have bottles of #1 to #4. Do you know if I need to think about drinking these or will they keep a while? They are stored properly.

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This is a bit off topic, i know, but this is a question that i've been wondering quite a bit about myself. How does one kmpw which wines are age-able, and just how long to age them for?

[mrbigjas]

by reading and reading and more reading, and then drinking and drinking.

[mike volker]

Chrish1,

I'm not an expert, but I would guess they'll go at least another five years with proper storage, probably more.

We opened one of the '02 Sequoia Grove Reserve yesterday. My wife's only comment was "WOW". Of course you have to like those big in your face cali cabs.

Best,

Mike

[Dennis]

Speaking of "Big" in your face wines...I opened a bottle of the new 2003 Hanna Cab this weekend and that's exactly what I thought. I've been waiting for this one and was anxious to try it so I opened it awhile before dinner and had it with some bread & Prima Donna Gouda (my favorite Gouda). After about 1 hour, it seemed to change (open up?) and the tannins seem to mellow out. I believe it's 14.8% which is probably the strongest Cab I've ever had...so I'm going to venture a guess that this is one wine that I can safely cellar for awhile?

[Jeff L]

After about 1 hour, it seemed to change (open up?) and the tannins seem to mellow out.

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Try decanting and letting it sit for an hour or 2. Amazing invention the decanter

[doviakw]

After about 1 hour, it seemed to change (open up?) and the tannins seem to mellow out.

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Try decanting and letting it sit for an hour or 2. Amazing invention the decanter

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I, too, opened a bottle of the Hanna Cab. 2003 over the weekend to have with braised beef shin (made the meal because I wanted to try that wine). Straight out of the bottle, I noted that it "smelled tannic". I'm not sure that tannin has an odor but that's what I wrote down. I expected a fruit-forward taste with a big, tannic finish but found that the tannins were more tame than expected ... the fruit was there.

Splash decanted for about an hour and found the wine to be an easy drinker with the meal, the tannins having smoothed still further. I will probably buy more of this but haven't decided how much. Does anyone have an opinion on keeping this for a few years?

[mike volker]

The latest LCB srewup. CS wines were distributed earlier than they were scheduled. Some stores got them out on the floor and some didn't. They are all now in the back room waiting for the proper release date, unless somebody comes in and asks for them, in which case they'll go in the back room and get it for you. Kinda reminds you of the good old days.

Best,

Mike

PS There a list on the cash register

[Dennis]

I noticed something else strange...last month they listed Montes Alpha Cabernet & Syrah, Omaka Springs SB, and Raymond Reserve Cab as wines to be released in March. Now, they have disappeared from the Radar...they're not in the stores, on the Up Coming or In the Store web pages. They seem to have vanished.

Any thoughts as to what may have happened? The Hanna is in the stores but it's also missing from new CS wines in the stores.

[mike volker]

Hanna is on the list for the Easter promo

Best,

Mike

[newsgal]

Some interesting notes in today's Harrisburg Patriot News about the CS and some new related programs. Here's the link (second blurb - below the stuff about tonight's "Dinner Impossible" show):

http://www.pennlive.com/columns/patriotnew...ll=1&thispage=1

[Capaneus]

Some interesting notes in today's Harrisburg Patriot News about the CS and some new related programs.  Here's the link (second blurb - below the stuff about tonight's "Dinner Impossible" show):

http://www.pennlive.com/columns/patriotnew...ll=1&thispage=1

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Thanks for posting this.

I suppose we've all been in wait-and-see mode. I don't expect these changes to be catastrophic - I'm pretty sure they were in the pipeline during Chairman Newman's tenure. It's going to be next Holiday season before the impact of the Recent Events is fully felt, I think. I do have to wonder about the PLCB's penchant for secrecy in its operations. Who are they keeping the information from? The competition?

[Alcibiades]

As a long-time buyer of wine in Pennsylvania I've always taken the Chairman's Selection program with a water softner tablet-sized grain of salt. There are myriad reasons why the program generates conversation but as I see it, two reasons why any real excitement on the part of serious wine drinkers is never generated.

Firstly, the values that are added to the purchase of bottles are negligable for most of the people who are purchasing wines priced over $15. I presume that most people who buy wines in the $15-$25 range are (by virtue of their willingness to pay more than $8 a bottle) both interested in drinking better wine and also able to make a purchasing decision that is not entirely dictated solely by a minimal financial commitment. With that said, the ante is upped somewhat in terms of the purchasers' ability to spend a little more on something a little better. And so if my disposable income suppositions are correct then saving $1-$4 on a mediocre bottle of wine sounds like a good deal (and is, on balance, I guess) but really saves the purchasers little in terms of overall spending.

I mention this to segue into my second issue with the program, and that is the fact that this enormous purchasing power of the PLCB is never used to discount truly serious and interesting wines, in general the ones priced over $60. If you say to me that the 2004 Ridge Three Valleys is marked down from $23 (an unrealistic price to bear on an open market, as is) to $19 I will agree that is a savings of $4 and my expression will remain neutral. But if you were to report that the 2003 Pichon Lalande is down from $130 to $115 then I would see some incentive for buying it from the State because at the end of the day, that makes the difference not only to provide approachable prices for real wines but also takes the sting out of looking at the price tags on expensive wines that we all know are way above what we'd pay if we lived in another state.

The only wine I can remember being incentively-valued was when they ran the 1999 Chapoutier Hermitage, La Sizeranne at $49. I saw that wine this weekend for $90 in New York. If they knocked-down the prices on Chateau Palmer or Cos d'Estrournel then the people who could afford them would stop buying them on auction or out of state and, more importantly, those of us with limited means could (at least) know we weren't getting ripped-off if decide to splurge on real wine. And at the risk of sounding pompous, am I really supposed to get excited about Beringer Reserve at the CS's price when I can pick-up Hoopes Oakville for the same price out of state?

[KatieLoeb]

As a long-time buyer of wine in Pennsylvania I've always taken the Chairman's Selection program with a water softner tablet-sized grain of salt. There are myriad reasons why the program generates conversation but as I see it, two reasons why any real excitement on the part of serious wine drinkers is never generated.

Firstly, the values that are added to the purchase of bottles are negligable for most of the people who are purchasing wines priced over $15. I presume that most people who buy wines in the $15-$25 range are (by virtue of their willingness to pay more than $8 a bottle) both interested in drinking better wine and also able to make a purchasing decision that is not entirely dictated solely by a minimal financial commitment. With that said, the ante is upped somewhat in terms of the purchasers' ability to spend a little more on something a little better. And so if my disposable income suppositions are correct then saving $1-$4 on a mediocre bottle of wine sounds like a good deal (and is, on balance, I guess) but really saves the purchasers little in terms of overall spending.

I mention this to segue into my second issue with the program, and that is the fact that this enormous purchasing power of the PLCB is never used to discount truly serious and interesting wines, in general the ones priced over $60. If you say to me that the 2004 Ridge Three Valleys is marked down from $23 (an unrealistic price to bear on an open market, as is) to $19 I will agree that is a savings of $4 and my expression will remain neutral. But if you were to report that the 2003 Pichon Lalande is down from $130 to $115 then I would see some incentive for buying it from the State because at the end of the day, that makes the difference not only to provide approachable prices for real wines but also takes the sting out of looking at the price tags on expensive wines that we all know are way above what we'd pay if we lived in another state.

The only wine I can remember being incentively-valued was when they ran the 1999 Chapoutier Hermitage, La Sizeranne at $49. I saw that wine this weekend for $90 in New York. If they knocked-down the prices on Chateau Palmer or Cos d'Estrournel then the people who could afford them would stop buying them on auction or out of state and, more importantly, those of us with limited means could (at least) know we weren't getting ripped-off if decide to splurge on real wine. And at the risk of sounding pompous, am I really supposed to get excited about Beringer Reserve at the CS's price when I can pick-up Hoopes Oakville for the same price out of state?

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Alcibiades:

Welcome to eGullet! Happy to have you here.

I have to disagree with your basic premise concerning the Chairman's Selection program. The CS program isn't aimed at the folks waiting patiently (possibly interminably) for the Cos d'Estournel to go on sale. It isn't going to happen. By definition there's already a market for that wine at auction or in small "allocations" at high end wine shops. The CS program is about finding large lots of good to excellent wine from established winemakers and buying it up in bulk and passing on the savings to the consumer at large in PA. They have no interest in standing in line for high demand cult wines and small allocation Premier Cru Bordeaux. The prices for the CS program wines have been low enough to entice shoppers from "neighboring states" to cross the bridge this way to go wine shopping. The "border bleed" is now going the other way. That speaks for itself.

There are plenty of "serious" wine drinkers that love the CS program, and more importantly, folks that it has allowed to become serious wine drinkers through the benefit of reasonably priced high quality wines that would normally have been either off their radar screen or out of their price range or both. That of and by itself is progress.

[cdh]

Since when does a wine have retail for $90+ to be "real"? I don't think I've had "real wine" more than once or twice in my life if we're going by that criterion... I'm quite happy with unreal wines, I guess.

[Rich Pawlak]

There is nothing more annoying than a wine snob. Price is not always the measure of anything. Sometimes you don't get what you pay for. Sometimes an extraordinary experience can be had for a small sum of dinero.

What the CS program did, in my opinion, was to level the playing field and allow the average person, and the casual wine drinker, to enjoy very good wine without the pretense of puffery used by wine snobs to seperate themselves from their perception of the hoi polloi.

Jonathan Newman's lifetime legacy, despite whatever he pursues in the future, will be his skill and passion at wine discovery and his determination to bring his passion and his discoveries to the masses. His brief tenure as Chairman did more for wine appreciation in PA than any flippant snooty comment from an effete wine snob who equates price with quality. Newman proved a thousand times over that that relationship need not always apply.

[Mano]

as I see it, two reasons why any real excitement on the part of serious wine drinkers is never generated.

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I'm fortunate to be part of a wine and dinner group that is as likely to serve Cos d'Estrournel and numerous other "serious" wines as they are CS wines. We're all reasonably serious about wines and interestingly, the most knowledgeable collectors have high regard for many CS wines.

[Alcibiades]

Thank you, Katie, for welcoming me. I apologize for what seems to be me having introduced myself in a poorly-received fashion. However, in response to Mr. Pawlak's hyperbolic reaction to my post, I'd like to point out two things that, in spite of the vitriol directed at my reasonable point, seem quite clear to me.

One, advocacy for making high-priced wines more accessible is in no way a "flippant, snooty comment from an effete wine snob." Something I believe we can all agree upon is that Chateau Margaux is a better-made wine than Whitehall Lane. The most prohibitive disconnect between the two is price. I'm not suggesting that extremely expensive wine is good because it's extremely expensive but unfortunately the world's finer wines are very pricey. I'm merely acknowledging that, more often than not, wines priced over $75 tend to be better than those priced at $20 (not always true, of course). You can choose to argue that point but, in general it's true. I don't like it any more than you and frankly, my income prevents me from drinking those wines precisely because I can't afford them. To cry snobbery because someone pines for accessibility to first-growth Bordeaux is ridiculous. Do you really mean to suggest wines in this category are undesirable? If price weren't an issue would you take David Bruce over Romanee-Conti?

Secondly, my original point was to simply argue for more accessibility to these wines. Yes, there are the super-weathy for whom price is no object. My post was not written for them since price is not an issue for those consumers. My idea was directed at the economics of access: if the state can shave a few bucks off a $20 wine why can't they do the same for a $100 wine? If they did would you scoff at it because your effete radar was ringing too loudly?

I fail to see why it's necessary to castigate someone for wishing for something we'd all enjoy. You can throw all the adjectives in the world my way but I'd still argue that you'd rather sit down and drink a Monte Bello with me than a Rosenblum. Well, maybe not with me but with someone else at least.

[guzzirider]

My idea was directed at the economics of access: if the state can shave a few bucks off a $20 wine why can't they do the same for a $100 wine?

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As Katie mentioned upthread, the CS program tends to deal with higher volumes.

I think another reason they tend not to include some of these hi-dollar wines in the program is simply because the state has no leverage to force a discount. For instance, if I'm a relatively small producer, who makes a limited quantity of outstanding $150 wine... odds are, I'm going to deplete my stock whether the PLCB buys from me or not. How would I benefit from selling off to them at a discount?

As Katie also mentioned I believe *way* upthread, the benefit to wineries comes into play when the PLCB can take a very large allotment off their hands at one time. This sort of transaction can be quite beneficial to the winery for a variety of reasons. However, if you are only producing small-ish quantities, and plan on selling out anyway, this serves you no purpose. Hence, no discount available.

I'm sure there are a variety of other factors at play, though.

__Jason

[KatieLoeb]

Alcibiades:

No apology necessary from you. I'd like to remind everyone to try and keep their tone here civil and to keep my job as easy as it's always been. I expect better from all of you eloquent folks than ad hominem attacks.

I think Jason explained the CS program and the lack of higher end wines better than I could have. I was more concerned on Alcibiades behalf and was sincerely hoping he/she was not holding their breath awaiting a sudden influx of Premier Cru and First Growths. Not gonna happen. The eager anticipation and holding of one's breath could lead to a serious case of blue-in-the face as well as crushing disappointment.

[Alcibiades]

Katie,

Thanks again. I'm a long-time viewer of this site and I've always been impressed with your fairness and general stewardship.

I know well-enough not to wait for any of these wines to be reasonably priced here in PA. I just wish they were and don't see why they can't be. Jason's informative response is helpful to understanding how the system works but the reality he so accurately describes does not exclude the possiblity of higher-end wines being subject to similar discounting schemes. And when I say "discount" I mean a fair, market-driven price.

Yes, we can shoot across the bridge to save on Pavie. But the same rationale applies to wines of this price as it does to the CS ones: I don't want to have to take a trip to purchase wine at a fair price.

[shacke]

I try to avoid such arguments like this but it's been a while so I will chime in a bit. Realize that this is my opinion so if you disagree, that's fine.

The CS program is not geared to the high end consumer but to the every day Joe PA. Maybe a customer here and there knows a thing or so about wine but it's really for the average citizen. Perhaps some oenophiles do not want to drink a 2000 Cali cab at any price and scoff at the system for selling it to the masses. Hey, news flash, a lot of people don't know, care or both. This makes some wine geeks really steam - like PA is getting away with a crime or something.

As someone who collects, enjoys and drinks wine, I have no quarrel with the spirit of the program but I do not pretend it is something that it's not. Frankly, with the potential storage issues the state has, why would you want to buy and lay down high end bdx from PA anyway, especially if it's already an older bottle? That's russian roulette. Plus, even at a discount, 90% of pennsylvanians won't be buying Pichon Lalande or Margaux.

It seems to me that a round wine geek like me generally doesn't fit into the square hole of the CS program. That doesn't make the program suck - at least in my book. It's got it's issues - even for the general consumer - I understand that. Still, if it's getting people to try new wine and learn - that's a good thing.

one other thing ...

...the most knowledgeable collectors have high regard for many CS wines

That is a huge stretch to say "most" and "many". Don't try to elevate the program to something it is not.

[KatieLoeb]

I know well-enough not to wait for any of these wines to be reasonably priced here in PA. I just wish they were and don't see why they can't be. Jason's informative response is helpful to understanding how the system works but the reality he so accurately describes does not exclude the possiblity of higher-end wines being subject to similar discounting schemes. And when I say "discount" I mean a fair, market-driven price.

Yes, we can shoot across the bridge to save on Pavie. But the same rationale applies to wines of this price as it does to the CS ones: I don't want to have to take a trip to purchase wine at a fair price.

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Well - don't forget that since PA is by definition, a monopoly, a lot of wineries would prefer NOT to jump through the hoops necessary (finding a distributor to carry their product, or have enough inventory to have it as a LISTED product) to sell their wines here. Sure - you can purchase Chateau Margaux in PA. The 1979 vintage is currently listed at $282.19 as an SLO. I can imagine that there are only so many bottles allotted for the entire state. I'll bet dollars to donuts that Capital Grill and Le Bec Fin have a certain number of bottles set aside for them to purchase and mark up to approximately $750. The cachet of even having those wines on their list and the scarcity of them makes the restaurants the guaranteed sale and makes it a losing proposition for even the deepest pocketed consumer to try and compete in that particular shark pond. And as Evan pointed out, not knowing the providence of the wine (does the back of an unrefrigerated truck in mid-July shipping your order to your local store sound appealing?) makes finding it at auction or in a <cough> neighboring state a better bet anyway.

As for "market-driven" pricing in PA - again, not gonna happen. It's not a market driven state. It's a freakin' monopoly and it's a system that won't soon change. The state's revenues are too closely tied to the current tax structure and discounting, particularly on high demand, high priced items is out of the question. I think the fact that the CS program was able to purchase some fabulous Super Tuscans and lower tiered Burgundies and Bordeaux was about as much of a miracle as I'd ever witnessed.

There's oceans of fabulous wine that we'll never see in PA. There's oceans of fabulous wine that IS available but is more trouble and expense than it's worth. I try and satisfy myself by coloring inside the lines within the PLCB system and availing myself of the finer programs like the CS and the liter bottles of spirits at the Outlet stores, and make clandestine felonious trips over the border for everything else. :shrug:

[Capaneus]

That is a huge stretch to say "most" and "many".  Don't try to elevate the program to something it is not.

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Don't know nuthin' from no "most knowledgeable collectors". I know I have done quite well with them.

As you say, Evan, it is what it is: I'm not about to claim that many of these wines are a steal at their release prices. But at the price at which they are offered by the PLCB, they are often amazing bargains. I would be extremely appreciative if a "knowledgeable collector" could direct me to good Bordeaux at $20/btl, but with the least cru Bourgeois hitting the mid-twenties for the '04s, I doubt they'll be able to do it in the near future. For that price, though, we've been offered a number of extremely good CaliCabs, and heck, that'll have to do me. Not to mention that some Cru Bourgeois are currently on offer as Chaiman Selections, at a decent discount from e-prices.

I bought a bunch of the Chateau du Tracy Pouilly-Fume a couple of months back. Is it a great Loire? Course not. But for $14 it had a degree of finesse that most whites at that price don't even attempt.

And so on and so forth. Like I've stated above, the PLCB is flawed. But when I couple it with other resources I have nearby (no further than many would have to travel to their neighborhood store), the whole makes for a set of resources that I am very happy with. Wine is what I believe is called a scarce commodity - at least great wine is. These particular scarce commodities are never going to be priced by the free market at amounts consumers with limited means will afford: '03 Petrus was something like $1300. I believe one of the DRC releases of the recent past hit the $2000 release price mark. I've looked at the '05 Bordeaux prices en primeur: they're a study in... well, in my world, these are fantasies. Bottom line: in the world we live in, you can get what you want, per aspera, maybe, but nonetheless. And the rest of us get cut a bit of an occasional break. Enjoy the Cos. The '88 was a personal favorite, and as long as Parker insisted on trashing their wines, it remained something I could treat myself to. Now, it's all yours.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Capaneus (log)