Copper vs Stainless Steel Clad Cookware: Is it worth the $$$?

[rotuts]

a tatin and an anna ar of different sorts.

 

but an Asparagus Pot    3.5 mm  Steel/Nickel ? Cast Iron Handle ?

 

they don't seem to make them any more !

 

FD  : while in FR my mother did find two tin lined, new old fashioned ' sauciers '

 

they are the ones w the 30 degree or so slant on the sides.  they were 

 

" ball peened " and are quire beautiful    the larger was stolen, i.e. toss out by an idiot.

 

I do enjoy looking at the smaller one    great beauty there

 

BTW  do you have those very thick copper  " Bain-marie "  i.e. the insert is very thick ? 

 

not so much the copper :

 

http://www.graciousstyle.com/webstore/product/mtradition-bronze-bain-marie-12-cm-with-lid?utm_source=froogle_feed&utm_term=Mauviel&gclid=CO7v-NSXvsoCFdMYHwodj4IJLQ

 

I have three if these.  this is the small one.  about $$ 12 USD  My mother and I packed it up and took it to the 

 

FR Postal.   lots of Cheek-Puffing, and Huffing and Puffing on the PO's   part

 

after all it'd FR

 

but it was sent to me in the eastern isa for 4 USD.

 

took  45 minutes  to get this done.

 

no line of corse, my mother took us via Bus  to the 'Depo'

 

dead as wood there

 

but a wonderful Life Experiecene

 

this same puppy, the small one  ( 18 USD  delivered   was  $$ 189. NYC )

 

 

[paulraphael]

My thesis should probably be, if the stuff makes you happy, and you can afford it, go for it. Esthetics and good vibes might matter to you. The question is what price and what other tradeoffs you're willing to suffer.

 

I've cooked plenty on the materials and thicknesses mentioned. And I've worked out the physics. And I've been in the kitchens of some of the best chefs working today (the only top-end kitchen in NYC where they use copper is Jean George, and his kitchen is on display from the street). My conclusions are exactly what I've said before. If your concern is performance, and you make a lot of sauces, then maybe there's an argument for a copper windsor pan. A stainless lined one is more practical. Otherwise copper doesn't offer real world advantages. 

 

I sold off my tin-lined copper years ago because it was a pain in the ass. I still use and love the stainless-lined copper, but would probably only replace one of these pans with more copper if they were lost.

 

Re: sauté temperature: don't mistake the cooking temperature with the preheat temperature. Unless you have a very high BTU range, you have to get the pan surface way higher than the cooking temperature before adding the food. If you DO have a very high BTU range, then you'll be dancing a delicate dance with tin. For searing larger batches of food, I typically get a pan surface up to about 480°F. 30 degrees higher than tin's melting point. Also remember that etals soften and lose strength well before their melting points.

[boilsover]

17 minutes ago, rotuts said:

a tatin and an anna ar of different sorts.

 

but an Asparagus Pot    3.5 mm  Steel/Nickel ? Cast Iron Handle ?

 

they don't seem to make them any more !

 

FD  : while in FR my mother did find two tin lined, new old fashioned ' sauciers '

 

they are the ones w the 30 degree or so slant on the sides.  they were 

 

" ball peened " and are quire beautiful    the larger was stolen, i.e. toss out by an idiot.

 

I do enjoy looking at the smaller one    great beauty there

 

BTW  do you have those very thick copper  " Bain-marie "  i.e. the insert is very thick ? 

 

not so much the copper :

 

http://www.graciousstyle.com/webstore/product/mtradition-bronze-bain-marie-12-cm-with-lid?utm_source=froogle_feed&utm_term=Mauviel&gclid=CO7v-NSXvsoCFdMYHwodj4IJLQ

 

I have three if these.

 

 

 

Yes indeed, vessels that are strictly for heating or boiling thin liquids--the vapeurs, couscousiers, bain maries, chocolate and coffee kettles, poachers, etc.--needn't be thick.   It doesn't hurt if they are, but thickness just doesn't make them work much better.  The reason is that thin liquids develop very efficient convection currents.  Thicken them up, though (or if you want to brown bones or sweat mirrepoix for your stock) and you'd better thicken the pan, too.  FWIW, I can see value to having iron loop or ear handles on all these, rather than brass.

 

The "ball peen" is called planishing, and is not ornamental, either.  That beautiful hammered look actually hardens the copper, making it more resistant to dings and going out of round.  Such "work hardening" is still valuable, even "today", as Falk and Mauviel press-form their pans.  

 

Your sauciers I would call 'Windsor', 'splayed saucepan'  or a 'sauteuse evassee'.  'Saucier' as applied to cookware is a dubious modern term, and the pans which are called that are all over the board in terms of geometry.  I think 'sauteuse bombee' would be a better name for the curved-wall "sauciers" being sold today.

 

I have one small, single-pot copper and crockery bain marie.  I have never miked the copper bottom, but it's quite thin.  Ironically, mine was made by Waldow, to whose tooling Hammersmith and Brooklyn fell heir.  Waldow once made a beautiful rotary bain marie holding multiple inserts; I'd like to have one.

[paulraphael]

I usually see "Saucier" applied to a windsor / evassee pan that has a curve in the bottom to accommodate a whisk. I don't have one, but it looks like a reasonable update to the classic design. Probably less likely to get curdled egg or other skank in the corners. 

[boilsover]

42 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

Unless you have a very high BTU range, you have to get the pan surface way higher than the cooking temperature before adding the food.

 

This is somewhat funny.  I would submit that very high-BTU ranges evolved parallel to the decline in use of copperwares.  Even a relatively weak gas hob can keep a copper bottom up and recover it faster.  Copper's just far more efficient, and so there's mostly no need for high-output hobs for dry cooking.

 

Again, you can easily go to 480F and above in tinned copper as long as there's fat in the pan by the time you near 437F.  And really?  For the fats I use in pans, there's no need to go any higher than that. 

 

 

[boilsover]

12 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

I usually see "Saucier" applied to a windsor / evassee pan that has a curve in the bottom to accommodate a whisk. I don't have one, but it looks like a reasonable update to the classic design. Probably less likely to get curdled egg or other skank in the corners. 

 

Yup, that's the idea--whisks supposedly "fit into the corners" better.  While there is a little truth to this, and it makes intuitive sense, I think far too much is made of it.  There are still "corners" that no round whisk will fit into.  Try it with an empty pan--see how your favorite whisk's bottom radius differs from that of the "saucier"'s internal curvature.  The old-style birch (twig and bent-cane) whisks, and many modern flexible or flat whisks reach into the "corners" of straight wall saucepans at least as well...

 

As I said before, the curved "sauciers" have a lot of divergent proportions.  Some of them have too-small footprints (which exacerbates poor conductivity), and the curvature means that surface:volume is not as linear as with Windsors when doing reductions.  Some function OK as a hybrid saucepan and saute, but it's never a perfect balance. 

 

 

[boilsover]

1 hour ago, paulraphael said:

...the only top-end kitchen in NYC where they use copper is Jean George

 

Well, there's Craft.  And Per Se.  And Chef's Table at Brooklyn Fare.  .  According to Craft's Chef Damon Wise:  "We use all-copper cookware for the meat because it heats up fast and offers even heat distribution,” Wise explained. “You get a better sear on the meat and it cooks faster.” http://www.craftrestaurantsinc.com/craft-new-york/gallery/

 

Here are a bunch more chefs, as compiled by Matfer:  http://www.matferbourgeatusa.com/chef-spotlight-brendan-collins

And Chris Consentino of Cockscomb.

[rotuts]

 

nice

 

very nice.   nice nice nice

 

well ..............

 

I can't really see them using a cooper pan

 

i know   I need galsses

 

those thing-ids  are what . porcelain ramikans ?

 

just saying

 

and the copper is Very Pretty Here

 

take the pic yourself did you ?

[boilsover]

3 minutes ago, rotuts said:

I can't really see them using a cooper pan

 

Yeah, well, they apparently faked the moon landing over at Daniel, too...  From https://twitter.com/danielny

[rotuts]

WoW

 

"""  beautifully polished copper ............. "

 

Q.E.D

 

nobody that Works, polishes Cooper

 

PR might

 

but not a working kitchen.

 

lets review :

 

Q.E.D.

[boilsover]

Yeah, even before Per Se, Keller's been part of the conspiracy perpetuating that top kitchens use copper...   He may have even brought down the Towers...

 

Don't actually see him cooking in it...  must mean it's all an ornamental hoax!

 

French Laundry must've relied on volunteers to polish it, too, since no one in a working kitchen does that?  Hmmm?

Edited January 22, 2016 by boilsover (log)

[rotuts]

Soooooo

 

the new TK line, Pots for a Buck or Two

 

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/shop/cookware/cookware-all-clad/all-clad-tk/

 

very copper-y

 

its  window dressing.

 

show me some 3 star rest.s  ( ( per se now only has 2   its the Bong Water I think )

 

on YouTube  current  this centuary

 

that you see copper being used.

 

TK

 

is not selling it it seems

 

but in a Still Pic.

[boilsover]

35 minutes ago, rotuts said:

Soooooo

 

the new TK line, Pots for a Buck or Two

 

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/shop/cookware/cookware-all-clad/all-clad-tk/

 

very copper-y

 

its  window dressing.

 

show me some 3 star rest.s  ( ( per se now only has 2   its the Bong Water I think )

 

on YouTube  current  this centuary

 

that you see copper being used.

 

TK

 

is not selling it it seems

 

but in a Still Pic.

 

You're funny. 

 

Here's a list of institutions and restaurants (you count their and chefs' stars) for which I can instantly find photos of chefs using copper:

 

  Palias De L'Elysee (Ch. Joel Normand)

  Senat (Ch Jean-Jacques Mathou)

  Assemblee Nationale (Ch. Christian Peccoud)

  Hotel de Matignon (Ch. Yves Delplace)

  Arpege (Ch. Alain Passard)

  Cazaudehore et la Forestiere (Ch. Gaston Haussais)

  La Closerie Des Lilas (Ch. Fabrice Vulin)

  Dalloyau (Ch. Pascal Niau)

  Fouquet's (Bernard Leprince)

  L'Intercontinental (Patrick Juhel)

  Le Grand Vefour (Guy Martin)

  Jacques Cagna (himself)

  Ledoyen (Ghislane Arabien)

  Lenotre (Gaston himself)

  Brasserie Lipp (Jean-Paul Juliard)

  Lucas Carton (Frederic Robert)

  Maxim's (Michel Kerever)

  Potel et Chabot (Jean-Pierre Bifi)

  Hotel Ritz (Guy Legay)

  Ritz Club (Domenique Fonseca)

  Bernard Dufoux (himself)

  La Cote Saint-Jacques (Michel Lorain)

  Les Crayers (Gerard Boyer)

  Au Crocodile (Emile Jung)

  L'Esperance (Marc Menau)

  Hotel Martinez (Christian Willer)

  Residence de la Pinede (Herve Quesnel)

  Paul Bocuse (himself)

  Les Pres D'Eugenie (Michel Guerard)

  Aubere Des Templiers (Francois Randolphe)

  Troisgros (Pierre and Michel)

  Georges Blanc (himself)

  Chez le Baron de Rothschild (Nadine, Robert Palluau)

 

 Seems they all are conspirators in this.  You might also be surprised how many fans Brooklyn Copper Cookware has among the illuminati right there in New York City.  I'll leave it to them to name names in their promotional materials.

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by boilsover (log)

[rotuts]

no videos ?

 

you know, at the Crunch Time ?

 

any Bong Water ?

 

that will get you 2 stars

 

BTW

 

have you seen Tom's Book  " Under Pressure "

 

I pulled it down of the Dusty Shelf.

 

no copper any where that I can see.

 

None

 

there were some Kitchen Shots

 

not so many

 

looked pretty stainless to me

Edited January 23, 2016 by rotuts (log)

[boilsover]

Here's Daniel Humm at Eleven Madison Park...  In the background, what, bong water?

Here're the Rocas at El Celler de Can Roca...  What's that I see, Spanish bongwater?

And here's Massimo Bottura at Osteria Francescana.  Italian bong water, no doubt.

And what's that in Virgilio Martinez's Central in Lima?  Andean bong water!

Heston Blumethal!  What's that bong water doing on Din*ner's cooktops?

Alex Atala, you Braziliam bum, what's that at D.O.M?  Don't spill that on the carpet!

 

Don't you all know copper cookware is "not for today"?

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by boilsover (log)

[Toronto416]

The demise of tin-lined heavy copper cookware is as overblown as the demise of sailing, riding horses, film cameras, beeswax candles, and wearing stockings with garters.

 

E.Dehillerin sells a large array of tin lined copper cookware - all new current production pieces by Mauviel that are constantly being replenished:

 

http://eshop.e-dehillerin.fr/en/copper-copper-lined-with-tin-xsl-243_271.html

 

If you go to Mauviel's French language site, you will see the tin-lined M'tradition line of heavy tin-lined cookware - just click 'Francais' and then 'les collections':

 

http://www.mauviel.com

 

If you click the English language option you are redirected to the American distributor's site, and alas no tin-lined copper.

 

I ordered a new current-production 11" heavy copper tin-lined Mauviel rondeau from France in November 2015.  It is 3.3-3.5mm thick, and marvellous for browning and then braising meat.  The tin is quite non-stick, the pan suffers no hot-spots, and the thick copper conducts heat such that the contents are enveloped with heat, permitting wonderful stove-top braises.  It of course also performs very well in the oven, but so do vessels that would not be suitable for stove-top braising.

 

Cooks far more experienced than me have touted the advantages of heavy tin-lined copper cookware (see boilsover above, and the many photographic examples he provided of copper pots being very much in evidence in professional kitchens).  As mentioned above, Julia Child was a big fan of tin-lined heavy copper cookware (just don't follow her cleaning instructions).  When she was developing and testing the recipes in her 1961 classic Mastering the Art of French Cooking, she did most of that using tin-lined heavy copper cookware she had bought from E.Dehillerin.  If tin-lined heavy copper cookware was good enough for developing one of the greatest and most enduring cookbooks of all time, then that's good enough for us mere mortals.  

 

Julia Child would have been excited to see the quality of cookware now being made in the USA by companies such as Brooklyn Copper Cookware.  I just wanted to bring attention to this old-world artisanal approach to making copper cookware for those who value slowing down to make good food, drink good wine, and enjoy good company while respecting tradition and indulging in the finer things in life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Toronto416
typo (log)

[palo]

Agreed, copper looks great, but what experienced cooks have touted the advantages of copper or other materials specifically? Don't work with induction do they?

 

p

[dcarch]

"------- 3.  Tin linings are great for searing and saute.  I don't know how you define heat for searing, but I say it starts at 200C/400F, which is below the melting temperature of 450F.  Moreover, you can easily go higher with oil in the pan, and higher yet with food in it.   If for you searing is flopping into a bare pan at 550F, then I wish you well.   Tin linings, like SS to some degree, "season", but a seasoned tin lining always sticks less than a freshly-scoured SS one. ----"

 

At some point, tin melts at 351F.

 

"--- The demise of tin-lined heavy copper cookware is as overblown as the demise of sailing, riding horses, film cameras, beeswax candles, and wearing stockings with garters. ---"

 

I don't even think 1 in 10,000 home kitchens use copper cookware. I gave all mine away.

 

dcarch

[rotuts]

all Langue dans le(s) Joue aside,

 

I can't imagine 'newer' professional French Restaurants  ( or that type : i.e.  Le sauce type )  equipping their restaurant , with

 

investment in copper, tinned or not.

 

that being say, there has to be a zillion tons of the professional stuff,  around to buy up after restaurants close dans Le France.

 

so if you Got it You Use it.

 

it is a Joy.  but for the home cook, and I mean the Home eG enthusiast, its not the way to go

 

if you are starting out.

 

well, maybe you own one of those Hedgey-Hedgey Funds, you know, wink wink, insider insider

 

well, why not then ?

 

but Id invest if that were you

 

in a Personal Chef  :  called Jacque(line)

 

but  Im pleased those who have the stuff enjoy it.    that's why we enjoy cooking.

Edited January 23, 2016 by rotuts (log)

[boilsover]

On 1/23/2016 at 8:51 AM, dcarch said:

At some point, tin melts at 351F.
 

 

Ummm, no.  Try 449.5F for pure tin. I hope you didn't give all your copper away because of that mistake.

And the melting temperature of a tin lining is substantially higher than that--all that is needed is something in the pan.  Roasting at 500F is not a problem.

I have actually (and accidentally) boiled tinned saucepans dry, one particular pan three times now.  One of those times, the pan was so hot it glowed.  While its tin was degraded to some degree, it did not destroy the lining.  It was hotter--and for longer--than some pans which I have destructively tested by overheating. 

 

Here's what happens to seriously overheated clad.  This pan's done.  With tinned copper, the worst case is you have it retinned.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by boilsover (log)

[chefmd]

I have a few 2.5 mm Mauviel pots and pans that are steel lined.  Bought them at a huge discount while Sur La Table was switching to 1.5 mm line.  They cook very well but I almost invarialy reach for high carbon steel or cast iron pans.  And for Le Creuset pots.  Now I am trying to think why and can not honestly answer that question.  But this is what on my stove top all the time:

 

And copper pot is also out but hosting a plant .  I did not even think about it until I started to type response to this thread. <feeling ashamed>

 

[dcarch]

1 hour ago, boilsover said:

 

Ummm, no.  Try 449.5F for pure tin. I hope you didn't give all your copper away because of that mistake.

 

 

Actually, tin is a very strange metal. Google "Tin pest", "tin whiskers" ----- 

 

also:

"---- Tin melts at a low temperature of about 232 °C (450 °F), which is further reduced to 177.3 °C (351.1 °F) for 11 nm particles.^[6] ----"

 

 

 

 

I gave mine away because for my kitchen, like for most kitchens, copper simply offers no advantage.

 

darch

 

[boilsover]

4 hours ago, dcarch said:

 

Actually, tin is a very strange metal. Google "Tin pest", "tin whiskers" ----- 

 

also:

"---- Tin melts at a low temperature of about 232 °C (450 °F), which is further reduced to 177.3 °C (351.1 °F) for 11 nm particles.^[6] ----"

 

 

 

 

I gave mine away because for my kitchen, like for most kitchens, copper simply offers no advantage.

 

darch

 

 

This is funny, since tin pest (like tin crying) is simply not an issue with linings, and pure tin melts 99F higher than you misbelieve and higher than all but a few oils' smokepoints.  Have you lost any linings to tin pest?

 

No place in modern restaurants?  Have you not been paying attention to the lists of top-rated restaurants and photos of top chefs whose kitchens use it?

[dcarch]

1 hour ago, boilsover said:

 

This is funny, since tin pest (like tin crying) is simply not an issue with linings, and pure tin melts 99F higher than you misbelieve and higher than all but a few oils' smokepoints.  Have you lost any linings to tin pest?

Funny or not, those are pure scientific facts. Also, I am not sure Tin is totally food safe. There are problems with tin in contact with many types of food.

 

1 hour ago, boilsover said:

No place in modern restaurants?  Have you not been paying attention to the lists of top-rated restaurants and photos of top chefs whose kitchens use it?

Not talking modern expensive restaurants. There are 24,000 restaurants in NYC, How many of them use copper cookware ? I also find it interesting in those kitchens, their copper cookware all look brand new, like they never used them.

There are 123 million households in the USA, how many kitchens use copper cookware?

 

dcarch

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

7 minutes ago, dcarch said:

There are 123 million households in the USA, how many kitchens use copper cookware?

 

Gingerly raises hand.