Best non-stick cookware?

[Anna N]

2 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Other than criticism for being overpriced?  I don't recall seeing mention of Scanpan performance issues.  I'll search back over the old threads.  It was a little curious that there were no customer reviews on WS for the pans I ordered.

 

I shall ignore your pun.

 

Damn.  I’m really hurt that you ignored my pun.  But click.   And click.

 I remember rather desperately wanting some of this cookware way back when and being very discouraged when I did some research on it. YMMV  and I hope it does. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

46 minutes ago, Anna N said:

Damn.  I’m really hurt that you ignored my pun.  But click.   And click.

 I remember rather desperately wanting some of this cookware way back when and being very discouraged when I did some research on it. YMMV  and I hope it does. 

 

I slogged through all those reviews!  I expected complaints about the non-stick coating but some people said their handles fell off.  I've had a Cuisinart welded handle fail but so far never a riveted handle.  (There is a whole eG thread arguing riveted vs welded handles!)

 

One reason I went with the WS branded Scanpan is I like WS handles.  The other reason is I expect WS to give good warranty service if necessary.

 

[Anna N]

38 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I slogged through all those reviews!  I expected complaints about the non-stick coating but some people said their handles fell off.  I've had a Cuisinart welded handle fail but so far never a riveted handle.  (There is a whole eG thread arguing riveted vs welded handles!)

 

One reason I went with the WS branded Scanpan is I like WS handles.  The other reason is I expect WS to give good warranty service if necessary.

 

  I wish you only joy with your new pans. 

[demiglace]

Anyone worried about the Teflon flu? Maybe it's a non-issue now.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

5 hours ago, demiglace said:

Anyone worried about the Teflon flu? Maybe it's a non-issue now.

 

The Deadly Dinner Party has a chapter on Teflon respiratory illness.  The book is a good read whether you like garlic or not.  A very good read.  Without spoiling too much of the plot, workers at a plant where Teflon was an industrial reagent were getting sick.  Yes, it was the Teflon!  Like many things in life Teflon is inert till it is heated hot enough.  Temperatures unlikely to be achieved in cooking and much higher than the plant was using for its process.

 

All the employees who succumbed were smokers.  Epidemiologically Teflon residue on your hands for smoke breaks is a very bad idea.

 

[demiglace]

45 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

The Deadly Dinner Party has a chapter on Teflon respiratory illness.  The book is a good read whether you like garlic or not.  A very good read.  Without spoiling too much of the plot, workers at a plant where Teflon was an industrial reagent were getting sick.  Yes, it was the Teflon!  Like many things in life Teflon is inert till it is heated hot enough.  Temperatures unlikely to be achieved in cooking and much higher than the plant was using for its process.

 

All the employees who succumbed were smokers.  Epidemiologically Teflon residue on your hands for smoke breaks is a very bad idea.

 

 

Thanks for the recommendation!

[boilsover]

11 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Temperatures unlikely to be achieved in cooking

 

3M's own data say PTFE begins off-gassing at about 400F.  Consumers are told 500F because that's the point where the plastic starts degrading in earnest.

Edited April 13, 2018 by boilsover (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

11 hours ago, boilsover said:

 

3M's own data say PTFE begins off-gassing at about 400F.  Consumers are told 500F because that's the point where the plastic starts degrading in earnest.

 

 

Through the magic of working in a library I reread the Teflon chapter in The Deadly Dinner Party.  The temperature is indeed lower than I remembered:  about 300C.  Apparently PTFE degrades in earnest above 450C.  Where is the literature for 400F?  I have a non-stick Zojirushi grill that heats to 450F and a DeLonghi griddle that heats to 490F.  If those temperatures were toxic I should think these companies would be in a heap of trouble.  (And my estate would be rich.)

 

Of course, heat stainless steel hot enough and you get metal fume fever from the chromium.  Let's all switch over to titanium cookware that never melts!*

 

Anyhow, when my omelet gets to 300C I'll most likely have passed out from hydrogen sulfide poisoning or from shame.  (Disclaimer, I once was a protein chemist.)

 

 

*humor intended:  in air titanium combusts before it melts.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Anyhow I am no longer a non-stick virgin.  I received my Makoto Koizumi omelet pan.  It is beautiful but too small for a French two egg omelet.  The flat part on the bottom is only about 5 1/4 inches.  It is marked an 18cm pan.

 

 

 

But it is most interesting.  Quite heavy for it's tiny size.  I have a Cuisinart pan about the same diameter that tips over from its own weight.  Very bad.  This does not.

 

Note the handle is attached with stainless rivets.  The inside of the rivets are coated.  In contrast the handle of my much more expensive Makoto Koizumi non non-stick tri-ply pan is welded.

 

The pan came with an extensive manual, all in Japanese, from which I gather the metal thickness is 1.2mm.

 

The teak is affixed to the stainless with two torx screws.  I resisted the urge to take it apart.  I was pleased with the performance:

 

 

 

[paulraphael]

On 4/13/2018 at 11:25 AM, boilsover said:

 

3M's own data say PTFE begins off-gassing at about 400F.  Consumers are told 500F because that's the point where the plastic starts degrading in earnest.

 

 

This could explain why nonstick pans gradually lose their mojo. As I read it, they warn people about 500F because it's the point where byproducts can reach a concentration in the air that can cause health problems.

 

400F isn't very hot ... you'd have to be really careful when pre-heating a pan to consistently keep it cooler.

[gfweb]

Given those temperature limits, Teflon is only well-suited to eggs.

 

You'll get little sear on a piece of thin  meat at 300 F unless you really overcook it.

 

And the non-stick feature prevents much of a fond in the pan...so no pan sauces.

 

A well-seasoned steel pan does it all better...except scrambled eggs and maybe a fritata....and lasts forever.

[gfweb]

14 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

 

 

 

 

What's the blue stuff in your lovely omelet?

 

[rotuts]

This ?

 

[gfweb]

56 minutes ago, rotuts said:

This ?

 

 

Yes. Also at the western edge, somewhere between LA and SF if the omelet is a map of CA.

Edited April 14, 2018 by gfweb (log)

[rotuts]

Yar

 

saw that myself

 

though one pic would be enough to focus on.

 

still betting i was delicious 

 

" as is "

Edited April 14, 2018 by rotuts (log)

[boilsover]

3 hours ago, paulraphael said:

400F isn't very hot ... you'd have to be really careful when pre-heating a pan to consistently keep it cooler.

 

Absolutely.  I believe Teflon on the stovetop is an accident waiting to happen.  There is a partial safety feature for pans used on induction: manipulation of the pan's Curie Point.  Demeyere's ControlInduc is one example, but IMO the chosen cutoff point is still too high.

[boilsover]

17 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Where is the literature for 400F?  I have a non-stick Zojirushi grill that heats to 450F and a DeLonghi griddle that heats to 490F. 

It's in 3M's earliest studies.  I'll see if I can find it again.

 

Generally, under 400F, PTFE is quite stable, and biologically unavailable.  Above that, it becomes progressively unstable, volatile and toxic.  The byproducts of pyrolized PTFE  (e.g., C8) can be highly lethal.  Even short of perceptible burning, PTFE emits ultrafine paticulates which can cause respiratory problems.  IMO, this is the threshold for the market warnings not to exceed 500F.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

4 hours ago, gfweb said:

 

 

What's the blue stuff in your lovely omelet?

 

 

I apologize.  I went back and checked, even the original is blue.  Normally I take food photographs under artificial light, occasionally by daylight.  In this case I was dining on a cloudy evening.  The omelet was illuminated by halogen light from above and daylight from glass doors to the left.  Typically I use a gray card to insure color accuracy but that doesn't work well with mixed lighting.  I should have made an effort to repair the blue eggs in photoshop or let the omelet sit on the plate till after dark.

 

Alternatively you could think of it as mold.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

3 hours ago, boilsover said:

It's in 3M's earliest studies.  I'll see if I can find it again.

 

Generally, under 400F, PTFE is quite stable, and biologically unavailable.  Above that, it becomes progressively unstable, volatile and toxic.  The byproducts of pyrolized PTFE  (e.g., C8) can be highly lethal.  Even short of perceptible burning, PTFE emits ultrafine paticulates which can cause respiratory problems.  IMO, this is the threshold for the market warnings not to exceed 500F.

 

Once back when my job title was "scientist" I visited 3M in St. Paul.  I got sick the same evening.

 

[Anna N]

22 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Alternatively you could think of it as mold.

I thought it was just a sad omelet, nothing to do with your cooking, just sad. 

[boilsover]

16 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Once back when my job title was "scientist" I visited 3M in St. Paul.  I got sick the same evening.

 

 

Coincidence?  It could have been the fumes from the Scotch brand tape!!!

[paulraphael]

On 4/13/2018 at 11:27 PM, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Through the magic of working in a library I reread the Teflon chapter in The Deadly Dinner Party.  The temperature is indeed lower than I remembered:  about 300C.  Apparently PTFE degrades in earnest above 450C.  Where is the literature for 400F?  

 

 

This study finds that pyrolysis of PTFE begins at 200°C (392°F). Zapp JA, Limperos G, Brinker KC (26 April 1955). "Toxicity of pyrolysis products of 'Teflon' tetrafluoroethylene resin". Summary is online here.

 

It sounds like the reaction is very slow at this temperature.

 

Abstract: Teflon (9002-84-0), a physically inert tetrafluoroethylene (116-14-3) resin, is discussed in a paper presented at the American Industrial Hygiene Association Annual Meeting in Cincinnati, Ohio on April 26, 1955, and it is noted that its pyrolytic products are toxic, and exposure to various mixtures of them will induce polymer fume fever in humans. The latter influenza like syndrome has not been reproduced in animals. Sufficiently intense exposure of animals to Teflon's thermal products, however, is generally lethal. The associated evidence of pulmonary edema, together with other early test results, originally suggested that hydrogen fluoride (7664-39-3) (HF) was the responsible toxic agent. The pyrolysis of Teflon starts at 200 degrees-C and proceeds slowly up to 420 degrees-C; at 500 to 550 degrees-C, the degradational weight loss reaches 10% to 5% per hour, respectively, depending on conditions. In the temperature range 300 to 360 degrees-C, hexafluoroethane (C2F6) and octafluorocyclobutane (C4F8) were identified as decomposition products. In the range 380 to 400 degrees-C, octafluoroisobutylene (also C4F8) could be detected and, at 500 to 550 degrees-C, the chief pyrolysis products other than tetrafluoroethylene (116-14-3) (C2F4) were hexafluoropropylene (116154), (C3F6) octafluorocyclobutane, and octafluoroisobutylene plus a complex residue of perfluoroolefins. Inhalation toxicity tests indicated that the octafluoroisobutylene gas, the most potent product, was approximately ten times as toxic as phosgene (75-44-5). The rat mortality factor seemed to be proportional to the product of exposure time and Teflon surface area as a function of pyrolysis temperature. Teflon 6, a lower molecular weight polymer than Teflon 1, produced more toxic pyrolysis products. Other kinds of industrial polymers were observed to produce lethal atmospheres under less drastic conditions than either form of Teflon

 

There's nothing here about why 500°F would be chosen as the maximum allowable temperature; this might be based on some other studies. You can see from this summary that as temperature goes up, not only does the rate of breakdown increase, but the pyrolysis byproducts change. If you have an awesome commercial range and preheat your omelette pan to 500°C (932°F), you'll fill the air with octafluoroisobutylene, possibly helping with the vital task of population reduction.

[Anna N]

Wouldn’t you also risk that the substrate would melt?

[JoNorvelleWalker]

31 minutes ago, Anna N said:

Wouldn’t you also risk that the substrate would melt?

 

Not if the substrate were titanium!

 

But I wonder, with all the non-stick cookware sold and presumably in use, how many home cooks actually get sick?

 

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Not if the substrate were titanium!

 

But I wonder, with all the non-stick cookware sold and presumably in use, how many home cooks actually get sick?

 

 Unless a lot of canaries are cooking I suspect not many. Or perhaps I should say I suspect not many illnesses/deaths are identifiable as directly related to nonstick cookware.  But who really knows? It’s not something I lose a lot of sleep over.