Inexpensive/beginner/DIY sous vide setup

**Mjx** · March 22, 2014

Vacuum (or pressure) has nothing to do with sous vide cooking.

it is also a way to accelerate heat conduction to food by circulating hot water, in addition to "accurate temperature control" as quoted "From Modernist Cuisine: "Although sous vide literally means under vacuum in French, the defining feature of the sous vide method is not packaging or vacuum sealing; it is accurate temperature control."

As a matter of fact, after you drew a "vacuum" and sealed the bag, if you measure the pressure inside the bag, you will find that the pressure inside is the same as outside. Unlike in a jar or a can, if you vacuum, there will be much lower pressure inside than outside.

In the practice of sous vide cooking, "vacuum" is to "evacuate" as much air as possible because air is a poor heat conductor.

BTW, the classic recipe for the Chinese "White Cut Chicken" is very much sous vide without a bag or vacuum.

dcarch

[ posted at the same time as above posters. :-) ]

If a vacuum pump is used to remove most of the air from the bag, 'vacuum' has a good deal to to with 'sous vide', and is, in fact the reason it's called 'cooking/preparing food sous vide' (and the reason 'SVing' is meaningless).

Vacuum pumps don't come particularly cheap, so if you're interested in vacuum sealing your food prior to cooking, the answer to the OP is 'no'. That doesn't mean you can't use the technique of cooking bagged food in a water bath at a low temperature over a long period of time, but regardless of whether or not 'sous vide' is often used to describe that (i.e. no vacuum pump involved), it's inaccurate and silly to use the term to describe this.

'It's quibbling with semantics.'

Perhaps. But if someone is going to use techniques that demand precision on several fronts, it also helps to use terms that clearly, accurately, and unambigously describe what is actually being done. Saying that this doesn't matter is just lazy (I have both the MC works, and have a lot of respect for Myhrvold, I just don't agree with every single thing he says).

Shel_B · March 22, 2014

If you want to pursue stove-top low temp cooking, I'd strongly recommend you get a heat diffuser. You want the two-layer type, e.g., this one available from Amazon, which dissipates heat, as opposed to the thick single-layer type which merely spreads it out. With a two-layer heat diffuser, you're creating a stable heat-in, heat-out environment which doesn't depend on retaining heat as does the cooler method. Also, it's small, cheap and useful for general simmering (which, indeed, is its original purpose).

Thanks for the pointer. Not sure yet if I need such an item, but time and experience will tell me.

dcarch · March 22, 2014

If a vacuum pump is used to remove most of the air from the bag, 'vacuum' has a good deal to to with 'sous vide', and is, in fact the reason it's called 'cooking/preparing food sous vide' (and the reason 'SVing' is meaningless). Vacuum pumps don't come particularly cheap, so if you're interested in vacuum sealing your food prior to cooking, the answer to the OP is 'no'. That doesn't mean you can't use the technique of cooking bagged food in a water bath at a low temperature over a long period of time, but regardless, of whether or not 'sous vide' is often used to describe with that (no vacuum pump involved), it's inaccurate and silly to use the term to describe this.

'It's quibbling with semantics.'

Perhaps. But if someone is going to use techniques that demand precision on several fronts, it also helps to use terms that clearly, accurately, and unambigously describe what is actually being done. Saying that this doesn't matter is just lazy (I have both the MC wroks, and have a lot of respect for Myhrvold, I just don't agree with every single thing he says).

Semantics? exactly. "Sous vide" is terminologically and semantically inexact. It has caused massive misconception of the essence of this cooking technique, including the OP.

Mechanically, there are more way then using a real vacuum pump to evacuate air, because ultimately you are not trying to create a vacuum environment.

"Water oven" cooking is much more informative.

dcarch

Shel_B · March 22, 2014

But if someone is going to use techniques that demand precision on several fronts, it also helps to use terms that clearly, accurately, and unambigously describe what is actually being done.

Then I shall call what I am doing Low Temperature Water Bath Cooking.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Shel_B (log)

gfweb · March 22, 2014

If a vacuum pump is used to remove most of the air from the bag, 'vacuum' has a good deal to to with 'sous vide', and is, in fact the reason it's called 'cooking/preparing food sous vide' (and the reason 'SVing' is meaningless). Vacuum pumps don't come particularly cheap, so if you're interested in vacuum sealing your food prior to cooking, the answer to the OP is 'no'. That doesn't mean you can't use the technique of cooking bagged food in a water bath at a low temperature over a long period of time, but regardless, of whether or not 'sous vide' is often used to describe with that (no vacuum pump involved), it's inaccurate and silly to use the term to describe this.

'It's quibbling with semantics.'

Perhaps. But if someone is going to use techniques that demand precision on several fronts, it also helps to use terms that clearly, accurately, and unambigously describe what is actually being done. Saying that this doesn't matter is just lazy (I have both the MC wroks, and have a lot of respect for Myhrvold, I just don't agree with every single thing he says).

True.

Problem is that the term, sous vide, finally has gotten some recognition. Those with a financial interest in the SV products aren't going to try to change anything now.

btbyrd · March 23, 2014

Thanks for your comments. Very helpful. I don't know how low my oven can go, but I do know that my Breville toaster oven can get down around 120-degrees, and I do have a container that will hold water that can fit inside the oven. How much water can I minimally use ... the container I have in mind holds but two quarts, less, of course, the amount taken up by the item being cooked.

Doing it on the stovetop seems like a lot of work, but the water, because of the quantity, might be able to hold a pretty steady temperature, and I do have a few very heavy, thick pots that should help maintain an even temp. Does that sound about right for stovetop SV?

If you're doing it in the oven, I wouldn't skimp on the water (especially if you're doing extended cook times). A good amount of water will help stabilize the temperature while the oven cycles on and off. You'll also lose some water due to evaporation, which isn't a big deal if you're cooking something for an hour but can make a difference if you're cooking all day (or for 3 days).

Here's a video from ChefSteps on the stovetop improvised SV method. There are also a couple of videos on YouTube of Grant Achatz doing a Thanksgiving meal using SV on the stovetop. I read an interview with him from a while ago (before SV took off and before circulators were cheap) and though he'd done a lot of low temperature cooking he'd apparently never seen or used a circulator. It was all done on the stovetop. The Paul Liebrandt documentary (that's available on Netflix streaming) shows him doing some low-temp cooking in a pot of oil on the stovetop. Same technique, different liquid.

Doing it on the stovetop isn't as labor intensive as it might seem if you use an induction burner or something else that can hold a relatively constant temperature. If using gas, you might need to keep more of an eye on it. In either case, you'll want to stir the water periodically. It's also a good idea to isolate the bag from the bottom of the pot. You can hang it from a skewer or use an inverted plate (or that new steamer basket that you're looking at) to keep the plastic from touching the metal. Heavy pot, a good amount of water, an accurate thermometer and you're ready to go. You can't cook eggs accurately with this type of setup, but pretty much everything else is within your reach. I wouldn't want to cook tough cuts for long periods (a day or more) like this, but for tender items, it's worth the time and attention.

KennethT · March 23, 2014

I do a lot of SV now, and have a few circulators, but years ago, when I first discovered eGullet and SV, I started doing it in a pot on the stovetop. It's certainly fine for things that don't take a lot of time - fish, chicken breast, etc. Like the OP, I didn't want to sink a lot of money into something I wasn't going to use, or get something and have the results not be worth it. After just a few experiments on the stovetop with a thermometer, I was hooked!

One thing I learned doing it this way is the value of covering (or uncovering) the pot. When cooking fish at low temp (I cook salmon at 115degF), I actually kept the pot uncovered because I found the temp crept up a bit, even with my burner (electric at the time) at the lowest setting, if it was covered. Chicken breast at 140degF was best covered and I found that once up to temp, keeping the burner on the lowest setting kept the temp stable. So just a stir once in a while to make sure there are not hot/cold spots.

Once the water was up to temp, and the burner turned to low, I found that it didn't make a difference if the bag sat on the bottom, in contact with the pot, or not. Using a long thermocouple probe I borrowed from work, I found that the temp was the same - even the pot temp at the bottom, so long as the burner is very low.

dcarch · March 23, 2014

Here's a video from ChefSteps on the stovetop improvised SV method. -------------------------.

Doing it on the stovetop isn't as labor intensive as it might seem if you use an induction burner or something else that can hold a relatively constant temperature. If using gas, you might need to keep more of an eye on it. In either case, you'll want to stir the water periodically. ------------.

Regarding the video:,

1. There is no need for all the oil. I have never had food sticking to the bag. A waste of good oil.

2. Never steam your digital thermometer for a long time.

Re. constant temperature:

1. Gas can be more steady, it does not go on and off constantly.

2. Put your pot slightly off center to the flame on the stove. This will create more water convection current flow.

dcarch

HowardLi · March 23, 2014

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain-marie

Then I shall call what I am doing Low Temperature Water Bath Cooking.

Shel_B · March 23, 2014

Regarding the video:,

1. There is no need for all the oil. I have never had food sticking to the bag. A waste of good oil.
2. Never steam your digital thermometer for a long time.

Re. constant temperature:

1. Gas can be more steady, it does not go on and off constantly.
2. Put your pot slightly off center to the flame on the stove. This will create more water convection current flow.

dcarch

Although my experience with this is limited (I've only made two seafood dishes thus far) I'd agree about the oil. I've read and seen enough from MC, Heston Blumenthal, and some other sources, to suggest that oil takes flavor from the protein, and that using little, or no oil, is a better alternative in many instances.

In my situation, it seems that I can cook certain fish and seafood items in water straight from the tap, or pretty close to it. The temp from my kitchen tap is varied between 116.5- and 119.8-degrees, which according to numerous sources is adequate for many fish and seafood. I can always add a few ounces of hotter water to bring the temp up a bit if need be.

I've got to work out a process by which the pot won't suck heat out of the water, and that will require some playing around. I thought that I could heat the pot somehow with hotter water to bring the temp of the vessel up, then add water of the appropriate temp, and set the pouch into the liquid for the requisite time.

Unfortunately, I have electric burners, although thus far they have not been an issue. Perhaps using very thick and heavy pots keeps the water temp more even, but that's just a supposition for now. I've been using a large Le Creuset oven to hold the water, and I also have a D5 All-Clad soup pot which, based on experiences with a D5 saucepan, should do a good job of retaining heat. My thinking is to use the heavy pots and plenty of water to minimize heat loss.

More experiments are needed.

pbear · March 25, 2014

If a vacuum pump is used to remove most of the air from the bag, 'vacuum' has a good deal to to with 'sous vide', and is, in fact the reason it's called 'cooking/preparing food sous vide' (and the reason 'SVing' is meaningless). Vacuum pumps don't come particularly cheap, so if you're interested in vacuum sealing your food prior to cooking, the answer to the OP is 'no'. That doesn't mean you can't use the technique of cooking bagged food in a water bath at a low temperature over a long period of time, but regardless, of whether or not 'sous vide' is often used to describe with that (no vacuum pump involved), it's inaccurate and silly to use the term to describe this.

'It's quibbling with semantics.'

Perhaps. But if someone is going to use techniques that demand precision on several fronts, it also helps to use terms that clearly, accurately, and unambigously describe what is actually being done. Saying that this doesn't matter is just lazy (I have both the MC wroks, and have a lot of respect for Myhrvold, I just don't agree with every single thing he says).

With respect, no. You might as well object, as perhaps you do, to the American usage of entrée. Personally, I prefer the term low temp over sous vide. See Post #16. But, the latter is common usage and calling it wrong is, well, wrong,.

dcarch · March 25, 2014

"Under vacuum" - that's canning?

"Under pressure"- that's using a pressure cooker?

dcarch

rotuts · March 25, 2014

I just use SV.

paulraphael · April 15, 2014

A lot's been mentioned about this, but I'm starting a new thread, since the topic doesn't really fit under Cooking or under a specific brand of circulator.

Anyone want to share tips?

I just got a 30 quart coleman performance cooler, and a can of non-expanding foam ... I'd like to hear more war stories before diving in with a jigsaw.

lordratner · April 15, 2014

A lot's been mentioned about this, but I'm starting a new thread, since the topic doesn't really fit under Cooking or under a specific brand of circulator.

Anyone want to share tips?

I just got a 30 quart coleman performance cooler, and a can of non-expanding foam ... I'd like to hear more war stories before diving in witah a jigsaw.

I do a fair bit of high temp sous vide cooking, so a cooler was not a viable option, and I ended up using a stainless steel tub. I have a facebook album for anyone interested in seeing the build.

I used fiberglass insulation instead of expanding foam. I liked having the ability to remove or replace it if I wanted to change something. The foam wouldn't allow for that. You may find the insulation to be overkill. My build retains heat so well the PID controller actually has a hard time with overshooting on the initial warm up. I suppose it saves money in the long term, but a 3-day set of ribs only uses about 3-4 KWh, including warm up.

I'd consider how you want the lid to open and close, and how that will effect the circulator. The lid will have a ton of condensation on it (the bottom side), so every time you open it, expect that to run somewhere. Not normally a big deal, but it has led to a few painful spills.

paulraphael · April 15, 2014

Interesting. I hadn't heard of problems with high temps in coolers. I'm mostly getting it for long cooks, which would be proteins at low temps, but I didn't think a cooler would be bothered by 185F. What problems did you have?

As far as the opening/closing, current plan is to just disconnect the hinges.

I may experiment with a sheet of reflectix on the water, to see if that reduces condensation. I'm guessing it won't, but who knows, and I have a big roll of it to play with.

lordratner · April 16, 2014

I suppose it depends on the cooler. I was doing this back in 2010 and didn't know eGullet existed, so I didnt have many people to get info from. The few I knew said they had problems with the plastic softening.

You also couldn't buy an immersion circulator for less than $700 (if I remember correctly), so I was building my own unit with everything integrated. Plastic was harder to work with for me than metal.

Take pics of the build!!

**paulpegg** · April 17, 2014

I posted this link in 2010 http://www.lesmarmitonsnj.com/sous-vide-cooker.pdf which describes the DIY sous vide system I built then. I am still using it on a daily basis with no problems at all. There is no need to add foam to the lid where you cut out for the heater etc, but there is no reason not to do it either. Knock yourself out! I have used the cooler at temperatures up to 85C and there has never been any sign of the plastic softening.

paulraphael · April 17, 2014

That’s a cool setup. I’d like to fill the lid with foam, partly because it’s got to improve efficiency of the thing, at least a little. And also because I’ll have a fairly thin edge of lid along the outside of the cutout, and I’m guessing the foam filling will provide some reinforcement. And reduce the sharp edges.

**paulpegg** · April 17, 2014

That’s a cool setup. I’d like to fill the lid with foam, partly because it’s got to improve efficiency of the thing, at least a little. And also because I’ll have a fairly thin edge of lid along the outside of the cutout, and I’m guessing the foam filling will provide some reinforcement. And reduce the sharp edges.

As I said, knock yourself out! Filling the cutout area on the lid is totally optional. On long cooks (over 24 hours) I do find that some condensate collects in the lid, but it is not really a problem and I just drain it out. On really long cooks, 48 hours or more, I put a piece of bubble wrap on top of the water to reduce evaporation. Again, this is not really a problem since I always check the cooler in the morning and add any water lost due to evaporation. This is not rocket science and should be fun for you. You will find that you just do it with whatever food you have with total confidence that it will be good! The best investment you can make now is a good chamber vacuum sealer!

dcarch · April 18, 2014

I posted this link in 2010 http://www.lesmarmitonsnj.com/sous-vide-cooker.pdf which describes the DIY sous vide system I built then. I am still using it on a daily basis with no problems at all. There is no need to add foam to the lid where you cut out for the heater etc, but there is no reason not to do it either. Knock yourself out! I have used the cooler at temperatures up to 85C and there has never been any sign of the plastic softening.

Very nice build!

The pump you use, is that a self-priming pump?

I use a simple external shaded pole AC motor with a rod and a stirrer. Nothing to go wrong even at very high temperature.

dcarch

paulraphael · April 18, 2014

I'm interested in the foam less to prevent condensation than to prevent energy waste.

**paulpegg** · April 18, 2014

Very nice build!

The pump you use, is that a self-priming pump?

I use a simple external shaded pole AC motor with a rod and a stirrer. Nothing to go wrong even at very high temperature.

dcarch

No, It is a small centrifugal pump that I prime by sucking on the end of the return pipe until the pump fills and the flow starts. I crimp off the return line right away so I don't get a mouth full of water. I could probably use a fish tank pump to prime it but never bothered. Fish tank pumps cannot take the high temperature which is why I went to very reliable external pump.

Your solution is good if you shield the stirrer so it doesn't get caught up in the bags.

Edited April 18, 2014 by paulpegg (log)

**paulpegg** · April 18, 2014

I'm interested in the foam less to prevent condensation than to prevent energy waste.

If you go with the foam I would suggest that you protect the open edge with a good coat of waterproof paint or glue some plastic to the exposed edge. Most of the foams you find in the hardware store are not meant for high humidity/temperature environments and could degrade and flake off over time. This could be messier than just stuffing some bubble wrap in the cutout area when cooking overnight or for several days.

dcarch · April 18, 2014

No, It is a small centrifugal pump that I prime by sucking on the end of the return pipe until the pump fills and the flow starts. I crimp off the return line right away so I don't get a mouth full of water. I could probably use a fish tank pump to prime it but never bothered. Fish tank pumps cannot take the high temperature which is why I went to very reliable external pump.

Your solution is good if you shield the stirrer so it doesn't get caught up in the bags.

The little DC motor which powers your pump has a limited life because of the carbon brushes can be worm.

A shaded pole AC motor is extremely long lasting because it has very few parts.

In my set up, the stirrer actually pushes the bag away, so there is no danger of damaging the bag.

dcarch

Edited April 18, 2014 by dcarch (log)

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