The cost of pizza

[Fat Guy]

Cento's San Marzano tomato passata is around $3.50 for a 24 oz glass bottle

I'm not sure that's a legitimate San Marzano tomato product. I'd be interested to hear a careful reading of the label.

[Toliver]

And don't forget to add the cost of homemade chocolate milkshakes to go with the homemade pizza.

That's how we rolled in my house when I was a kid.

[Raoul Duke]

Im using a wood fired oven so you'd have to factor in the wood costs, but I don't. I purchase 50# sacks of Caputo "OO" from a food distributor, grow my own San Marzano type tomato's, basil, oregano and source mozz from Costco. They have Buffalo mozz from Italy and N. America plus, the cow's milk mozz and grand pandano. Even with a wholesale price on flour I come in at about $3-4 for each Margherita pizza. The cheese is the budget killer here since I'm a "more is better" kinda guy.

[Katie Meadow]

Considering the price of food generally, quality ingredients in particular, the fact that many of us don't have a back yard garden bursting with Italian tomatoes, an average price of about $7 for pizza for two to three people--the bonus being that it's made to order just the way you like it--is a pretty good deal, no? If every home-cooked dinner for two cost that modest amount my food budget would be a lot lower than it is.

That pizza oven looks fab, Raoul. Clearly you need to get your own buffalo to really bring down the cost per pie.

[HungryC]

Cento's San Marzano tomato passata is around $3.50 for a 24 oz glass bottle

I'm not sure that's a legitimate San Marzano tomato product. I'd be interested to hear a careful reading of the label.

The passata label says "certified San Marzano tomatoes" and product of Italy prominently on front. (Not all Cento canned tomatoes are San Marzano.)

Link to Cento brands San Marzano page: http://www.cento.com/sanmarzano/sanmarzano.html

I'm a big fan of the passata; I use it straight from the jar as a pizza "sauce", and it is dead-on for a Roman-style "pizza rossa" topping.

ETA: picture of a pizza w/Caputo 00 crust, passata, and fiori di latte (slightly overcooked the cheese)

Edited August 23, 2011 by HungryC (log)

[slkinsey]

Cento's San Marzano tomato passata is around $3.50 for a 24 oz glass bottle

I'm not sure that's a legitimate San Marzano tomato product. I'd be interested to hear a careful reading of the label.

San Marzano can refer to a point of origin or a varietal of plum tomato. As a result, you can have "San Marzano tomatoes" that are grown just about anywhere. It's like buying "San Francisco sourdough" that was baked in New Jersey. Most San Marzano tomatoes are grown in Italy, but not many are not grown in the Sarno Valley. These are simply San Marzano variety tomatoes grown in Italy. If the San Marzano variety tomatoes are grown in the Sarno Valley, they can be certified under the D.O.P. and called "Pomodoro San Marzano dell'Agro Sarnese-Nocerino D.O.P." Usually this is shortened to something like "San Marzano D.O.P." or "Certified San Marzano." Cento does sell Certified San Marzano tomatoes, but their passata product is not certified (note the lack of "certified" on the label). In my experience, certified tomatoes tend to be quite a bit better than the uncertified ones (and quite a bit more expensive!). The Cento product is likely to be less expensive overall than whole canned tomatoes because it is a crushed tomato product usually made with less-than-perfect tomatoes. I would say it's right around as good as most any decent quality crushed tomatoes, but doesn't approach the quality of crushing your own D.O.P. San Marzano tomatoes.

Anyway, what Steven is figuring out is that there is a reason why the super-fancy pizza places charge a lot of money for their pizza: the ingredients can be quite expensive. Now, of course, he was paying retail prices, which drove up the cost even further. But great quality fresh mozzarella and great quality tomatoes are expensive. The one place where he probably overspent was on the Italian 00 flour. Mostly what you're paying for there is the expense of bringing it all the way over to the United States. American wheat is awesome stuff, and I don't think you get much bang for your buck springing for Italian 00. This is especially true because Italian flours are not classified the same way as American flours. American flours are generally classified by the protein content, whereas Italian flours are classified by the the fineness of the grind and the degree of refinement. "00" flour has a finer grind and more refinement than the "0" and "1" types, but it is possible to get 00 flour at a wide variety of protein contents. Meanwhile, the protein content appropriate for pizza might not be the one you buy when you get that sack of Italian 00 flour in the pasta section (in fact, it probably won't be).

Edited August 23, 2011 by slkinsey (log)

[HungryC]

Cento does sell DOP certified San Marzano tomatoes....though not in my preferred, reclosable glass jar packaging (the passata is indeed not DOP). Price for the DOP Cento is around $5 for a 28-oz can.

[djyee100]

A bunch of us were talking pizza, and I got this tip: The Central Milling flour sold at Costco, labelled as organic AP flour, is similar to Italian 00 flour, and very good for pizzamaking. I did try some pizza made with this flour. (Somebody else made the dough and pizzas, though). The dough looked strong and stretchy. The pizza crust tasted good, too.

Around here the flour is available at the Costco store in Richmond, Ca. I don't know about other locations.

More about this flour on this blog:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14044/my-visit-central-milling

[weinoo]

I guess this is all part of the reason why a decent slice (and there are only a few) of pizza here in NYC can approach $5, and a good, whole pie is easily $20 or more.

[HungryC]

I guess this is all part of the reason why a decent slice (and there are only a few) of pizza here in NYC can approach $5, and a good, whole pie is easily $20 or more.

The very thought of a $20 pizza makes me appreciate my local napoletana vera joint (not yet certified, but working on it) that turns out a perfect pie for $11-14. Sometimes I forget how (relatively) inexpensive food is 'round these parts.

[Norm Matthews]

OO flour is not a high gluten producing flour. It isn't too hard to get in many areas but if you can't find it you can replicate it . One recipe uses 3 parts all-purpose flour to 1 part cake flour, another 6 parts all-purpose flour to one part white pastry flour. Julia Childs has a recipe that uses 2 parts all-purpose flour to 1 part white pastry flour.

[Will]

Cento does sell DOP certified San Marzano tomatoes....though not in my preferred, reclosable glass jar packaging (the passata is indeed not DOP).

According to this post, anyway, DOP San Marzanos must come in tins.

http://gustiamo.typepad.com/gustiblog/2011/08/san-marzano.html

[slkinsey]

OO flour is not a high gluten producing flour. It isn't too hard to get in many areas but if you can't find it you can replicate it . One recipe uses 3 parts all-purpose flour to 1 part cake flour, another 6 parts all-purpose flour to one part white pastry flour. Julia Childs has a recipe that uses 2 parts all-purpose flour to 1 part white pastry flour.

This is not quite accurate. The kind of 00 flour you want to use for making Emilia–Romagna style pasta is a low gluten flour. But there are many kinds of 00 flour. Take a look at the Molino Caputo web site and click on the link for "products." You will see that they sell six different kinds of 00 flour, including "Standard," "Extra," "Super," "Pizzeria," "Rinforzato" (strengthened), and "Pasta Fresca e Gnocchi." These all have different protein contents and gluten qualities. Caputo's pizzeria flour is between 11% and 12% protein. For a comparison reference, most American all purpose flour is around 11% protein or lower. On the other hand, 00 flour for pasta is likely to be around 8.5% protein.

[Paul Bacino]

This might help!!

http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/baking-products/whats-the-deal-with-00-flour-108281

Paul

[slkinsey]

This might help!!

http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/baking-products/whats-the-deal-with-00-flour-108281

Paul

Just for what it's worth, the author of that page is incorrect in saying that American flour is made from durum wheat while Italian flour is made from red wheat. American all purpose flour is generally made from red winter wheat. Almost all durum wheat grown in the US and Canada is used to make dry pasta.

[Norm Matthews]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2353/1800188960_281b4245bd_b.jpg

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4632/major-wheat-growing-regions-us-reference-maps

Edited August 25, 2011 by Norm Matthews (log)

[Paul Bacino]

This has been an interesting thread.. I learned more about tomatoes and flour/wheat than cost of pizza

Doc B

[jmolinari]

Cento does sell DOP certified San Marzano tomatoes....though not in my preferred, reclosable glass jar packaging (the passata is indeed not DOP). Price for the DOP Cento is around $5 for a 28-oz can.

Not any more. Cento decided they didn't want to pay for the DOP label anymore.

I buy my mozzarella at Costco, about $10 for 2 lbs of very good Calabro fresh mozzarella, about $7 if i use the Belgioioso mozzarella, which is also good, which is enough for at least 6 or 7 individual pizzas. Good tomatoes are about $4 a can, which again is enough for at least 5 pizzas. Flour ends up costing about $1 or so....

Obviously adding expensive toppings raises the costs, but i would be hard pressed to spend $20 on 2 pizzas at home.

[DrewUK]

I make pizzas every Friday and it is about ½ price of Pizza Hut delivery. The problem is that I do not have a beautiful wood oven like Raoul Duke :-). So I crank my oven all the way put the shelf to the top setting and use some really dry mozzarella from Costco. I do not make my own sauce but I find that taking a jar of spaghetti sauce and reducing it by half makes a nice sauce. The dough is made in the bread machine. You can see the whole recipe on my blog. It is not Italian pizza but more Chicago. One key thing I have found is the pizza pan, Heartland Bakeware Pizza Pan, which makes perfect pizza every time. I am even in conversation with them about importing into the UK.

[slkinsey]

I buy my mozzarella at Costco, about $10 for 2 lbs of very good Calabro fresh mozzarella, about $7 if i use the Belgioioso mozzarella, which is also good, which is enough for at least 6 or 7 individual pizzas. Good tomatoes are about $4 a can, which again is enough for at least 5 pizzas. Flour ends up costing about $1 or so....

Obviously adding expensive toppings raises the costs, but i would be hard pressed to spend $20 on 2 pizzas at home.

Well, this is where the difference between "high quality" and "very good" starts to become a factor. Price tends to rise at a much steeper slope than the quality.

While brands such as Calabro or BelGioioso are certainly a step above industrial crap like Polly-O, they are still fundamentally supermarket brands with not all that much in common with real fresh mozzarella. As a generality, anything that comes sealed in heavy plastic packaging is not going to be all that great. A step above that is what one might find at higher end gourmet supermarkets and some cheese shops. These typically are wrapped in a twist of plastic wrap or, better yet, floating in liquid (although some of the supermarket brands also come in liquid). Unfortunately, they have had most of the fresh mozzarella character knocked out of them by age and refrigeration. Really the only mozzarella I have ever bought at a supermarket that had anything in common with real fresh mozzarella has been at my local Whole Foods. This is a local product, delivered fresh daily and displayed on top of crushed ice in the produce section rather than in a refrigerator case. I'd say this stuff qualifies as being a bastard cousin to real fresh mozzarella. After that, you cross over a huge gap in quality and come to real fresh mozzarella made to order by hand in someplace like Casa Della Mozzarella on Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, and never refrigerated. This cheese is so far removed from any "fresh" mozzarella you might buy in a supermarket that it might as well be a different product. The point is that the difference between real fresh mozzarella and "fresh style" mozzarella that isn't actually fresh is huge. The difference might even be more stark as that between raw and pasteurized brie. Needless to say, cheese from Casa Della Mozzarella is substantially more expensive than Calabro mozzarella from CostCo, just as D.O.P. San Marzano tomatoes are a lot more expensive than Pastene.

Now, of course, you need to have a technique and equipment to handle cheese with this much moisture if you're going to make pizza. I've been using an adaptation of the technique in Modernist Cuisine by baking mine on a massively preheated double-thick baking stone under my broiler and it works very well, although I should hasten to point out that I like the pillowy, soft, moist Neapolitan style. Lower heat techniques and different preferences might actually do better with a lower moisture cheese.

[jmolinari]

I buy my mozzarella at Costco, about $10 for 2 lbs of very good Calabro fresh mozzarella, about $7 if i use the Belgioioso mozzarella, which is also good, which is enough for at least 6 or 7 individual pizzas. Good tomatoes are about $4 a can, which again is enough for at least 5 pizzas. Flour ends up costing about $1 or so....

Obviously adding expensive toppings raises the costs, but i would be hard pressed to spend $20 on 2 pizzas at home.

Well, this is where the difference between "high quality" and "very good" starts to become a factor. Price tends to rise at a much steeper slope than the quality.

While brands such as Calabro or BelGioioso are certainly a step above industrial crap like Polly-O, they are still fundamentally supermarket brands with not all that much in common with real fresh mozzarella. As a generality, anything that comes sealed in heavy plastic packaging is not going to be all that great. A step above that is what one might find at higher end gourmet supermarkets and some cheese shops. These typically are wrapped in a twist of plastic wrap or, better yet, floating in liquid (although some of the supermarket brands also come in liquid). Unfortunately, they have had most of the fresh mozzarella character knocked out of them by age and refrigeration. Really the only mozzarella I have ever bought at a supermarket that had anything in common with real fresh mozzarella has been at my local Whole Foods. This is a local product, delivered fresh daily and displayed on top of crushed ice in the produce section rather than in a refrigerator case. I'd say this stuff qualifies as being a bastard cousin to real fresh mozzarella. After that, you cross over a huge gap in quality and come to real fresh mozzarella made to order by hand in someplace like Casa Della Mozzarella on Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, and never refrigerated. This cheese is so far removed from any "fresh" mozzarella you might buy in a supermarket that it might as well be a different product. The point is that the difference between real fresh mozzarella and "fresh style" mozzarella that isn't actually fresh is huge. The difference might even be more stark as that between raw and pasteurized brie. Needless to say, cheese from Casa Della Mozzarella is substantially more expensive than Calabro mozzarella from CostCo, just as D.O.P. San Marzano tomatoes are a lot more expensive than Pastene.

Now, of course, you need to have a technique and equipment to handle cheese with this much moisture if you're going to make pizza. I've been using an adaptation of the technique in Modernist Cuisine by baking mine on a massively preheated double-thick baking stone under my broiler and it works very well, although I should hasten to point out that I like the pillowy, soft, moist Neapolitan style. Lower heat techniques and different preferences might actually do better with a lower moisture cheese.

True on everything you said. The Calabro one is fresh in brine. Is it as good as it gets? No, but it is better than what 99% of pizza places use. Additionally, as you said, it isn't possible in a home over, without modifications, to use the wet fresh mozzarella, even the Calabro one, without waterlogging your pizza.

They also have Leoni fresh wrapped in plastic wrap, for about the same price as the Calabro...haven't tried that one yet.

Costco also carries Garofalo bufala which is excellent, and it is about 2x the cost...so even using that i don't know that i would be getting to $20 for 2 pies.

[german vegetarian chef]

Pizza--and lasagne--have always been relatively expensive to make, because fresh mozzarella and imported plum Italian tomatoes (all labeled "imported" are SM,those that specially say that are a marketing gimmick; look for "imported from Italy" on the cans) have always had a high price. Go to an Italian specialty store in an Italian neighborhood and buy your tomatoes by the case; they are amazingly cheap, and you will have many varieties to choose from.

I am sorry, but this is hardly true. Unfortunately the name "San Marzano" is not protected outside Europe, so basically everybody can call their own tomatoes San Marzano. Nowadays it seems that many Americans think San Marzano is only a synonym for "good tomatoes" and not what they really are, a special cultivar of the Roma tomato grown in Vesuvian lava soil.

Those real San Marzano tomatoes are NEVER crushed, pureed or diced, or even called "organic" (that word is not known in Italy). So whenever you read that on your can, it is a fake product, and you are about to pay too much for that seemingly cheaper product.

You think you are saving money by paying less for a fake product, but it would actually be better to pay a bit more to get the real thing. Or go the accurate way and pay really less for the fakes. But don't pay a mid price for the fake products!

Oh, and if they come in jars - they are not real either! Original DOP San Marzano tomatoes will only come in cans, and they will be whole tomatoes, maybe filets in rare cases, but nothing else.

I have made side-by-side tests between brands for the last 3 years or so, and I found out that the most expensive brands were NOT the best choice! So price doesn't necessarily lead to to the best quality. Recently I paid an upscale price for a can of Solania San Marzano in a Williams Sonoma store, and they were a sad disappointment!

The mid priced Dani Coop are (so far) my favourites, they have beaten all contestants so far, and they are certified and really coming from the Nocerino area. I get them online from http://www.Gustiamo.com (they are in NYC but I am not, so I need them to be delivered by UPS).

Further reading here:

http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/ingredients-pantry/how-to-identify-real-san-marzano-tomatoes-153939

Under that above link you can find out more how to recognize fakes.

Here a recent article from the NY Times which is also pretty enlightening in my opinion:

http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/the-real-san-marzanos/

[german vegetarian chef]

P.S. The english word "Certified" doesn't mean anything (legally!!) in Italy, so Cento can call their tomatoes "Certified" all day long without any consequenses.

That is pretty much the same as "Pure Olive Oil" is anything but what the name is suggesting... In Germany "Reines Olivenoel" must contain 49% olive oil by law, here in the USA it is only 25% required for the legal name "pure olive oil". Just thought I'd add this...

In this vein, don't get fooled by the title "Certified San Marzano". It is not legally binding, because these words have no legal meaning! Just like "Pure Olive Oil"!

[Raoul Duke]

I've used a local fresh mozz made by a retired physician and while it was tasty it was just to "wet" for my pizza. Invariably it left the dough soggy and detracted from the overall pizza. I've tried draining it but it really didn't help. The BelGioioso seemed to be the right consistency between the local and the vacuum packed mystery cheese. The two producers (Italian & US) of buffalo mozz from Costco were about right as well. I'm working in a oven temp of 750-800 degrees.

[Raoul Duke]

Here's a link to terms for what the IOC (International Olive Council) uses in determining olive oil grades. This is also used by the USDA and is in California law for labeling olive oils. Pure isn't listed as a grade.