When is it permissible to not tip?

[Jaymes]

. . . .

"Forced"? I don't get your reasoning. Surely nobody is "forced" to wait on table unless perhaps they're working at the prison cafeteria.

As for being pleasant to nasty customers, there is a line of "nastiness" to be sure, and when a consumer, in this case a restaurant customer, crosses it, a good boss is going to back up the employee. But if the customer is merely run-of-the-mill, everyday unpleasant and difficult, the owner of the restaurant, just like the owner of any retail outlet, is absolutely going to expect the employee to put up with it. Tipping system or no tipping system. That wouldn't change one iota. If you don't think so, you don't understand how the world works. At least this way, the "very big tip" goes to the waiter that actually put up with it. Justly, in my view.

As for this relationship being akin to prostitution, of course it is. All sales are basically the same principle. I'm going to be nice to you in the hopes that you purchase a product or service from me. It's all a matter of degree. How much will I put up with from you? How much will I want from you? What's it worth to me? How much product or service will I provide you? In the case of prostitution, it's a pretty intimate service. In the case of a used car, or insurance, or the fellow that wants to come cut your lawn, not so intimate, but it all starts the same way. Form a relationship. Trust me. Like me. I might not really like you because I think you're unpleasant, or too old, or too young, or too fat, or too conservative, or too liberal, or too light, or too dark, or too poor, or too "merry" but I'm going to pretend to like you because I want something from you and I've got rent to pay and children to clothe and educate, and food to put on the table.

I can tell you that I owned a small business for about eight years. A travel agency. And I had overhead to pay and a payroll to meet. We certainly put up with a lot of jerks, and I damn well did expect my agents to deal with clients that they didn't particularly like. Of course, as I said above, there's a line, and if a client crossed over from being a jerk to being abusive, I told them to leave. But that only happened about three times or so over the eight years. An overbearing, demanding, know-it-all, "I've-traveled-all-over-the-world-and-I-never..." arrogant jerk, on the other hand, came in at least once a week. If my agents wanted to keep their jobs, the first thing we all needed to do was to keep our doors open in an increasingly difficult economy.

I remember once attending a sales/motivational seminar being held for employees of a local bank. The bank's business had been falling off, primarily because that bank had gained a reputation in our town for grumpy service, for employees that waited on you begrudgingly, behaving as though they were doing you a favor to interrupt their very important and busy schedule to bother to wait on you, even going so far as to snap at you if you did or said something they didn't like -- as opposed to giving you that big, fake, phony "prostitute" smile and friendly insincere "personal" greeting. I had told the manager of that bank branch that I was going to move my agency account elsewhere, because I was tired of putting up with his tellers and that attitude, so he invited me to the seminar to demonstrate that things were going to change. I remember one comment in particular that the motivational speaker made: "When customers walk in, you should treat them as though they were bringing you a gift. Because they are. Your job."

The tipping custom may bring that seller/buyer prostitute/john relationship into much sharper and less-subtle focus, but it's all sales. Anybody that isn't willing to gut up and shut up and put up with a difficult customer has no business dealing with the public. And it's contagious. Get one surly employee with an entitled, "I don't have to put up with you, asshole" attitude, and your entire staff is at risk of adopting it.

They'll kill your business. You'll have to close your doors and then nobody will have a job. Put them back in accounting, or in the kitchen working the line.

Put the politicians and prostitutes and salespeople and phony insincere glad-handers and servers willing to bust their asses no matter what for a big tip out front.

They'll keep your bottom line in the black.

Which is better for everybody.

Don't you think?

With all due respect, I have to say I don't think so. The tipping system is problematic, unless you have a boss who cares at least a little bit (don't hold your breath), and you actually get decent tips. In smaller towns, at least, this is not a given.

When I first went off to university, I waited tables, really briefly. I did 'gut up and shut up and put up with a difficult customer' (several, in fact). I put up with a bum-grabber (charming, he tried for my crotch next time I passed, after which I made annoyingly time-consuming detours), a family who'd apparently had their children raised by wolves, and left a lot of praise and a religious tract as a tip, and a drunk or two. I smiled, and I smiled, and I smiled. I was accommodating and efficient, and by the end of one morning, I begged to be the bus/dish'boy', a job that paid the minimum wage.

The boss kept his bottom line black by paying waitresses as little as he could legally get away with, and telling them that being groped and poorly tipped was 'part of the job if you're cute'.

I don't think I'm particularly soft (I've been self employed most of my life, and spent several years doing heavily physical work for 89 hours a week), but I don't think anyone should have to put with that sort of thing, especially for sub-minimum wage and the possibility of a tip.

The tipping system is just no good, apart, perhaps, from at places where a 20% tip for good service is considered 'standard' by at least half the clientele. I've spoken with plenty of people who have waited tables, and my experience is far from unique. It would make more sense for restaurants to charge a bit more up front, and pay waitstaff a living wage. They do this in plenty of countries, and it doesn't seem to be hurting business, nor have I noticed poorer service.

If the only way an establishment can stay in the black is by underpaying staff and relying on the kindness of strangers to make up the difference, I don't think they really belong in business.

I'm not sorry I had the experience; it makes me pay much more attention to what is going on when I dine out, and it is at least partly the reason that I'll tip 20% (or at least a dollar, if the cheque comes to under $5) if the waiter seemed to be giving the job his or her best shot.

I agree with you that it would be better if restaurant workers (and in fact, everyone) made a liveable wage, and tips would be on top of that.

It so happens that I raised three kids and every one of them, and I myself in my younger years, waited tables. I get that not every boss or situation is ideal. And that it can be exploitative. And demeaning.

My main issue with dcarch is the notion that a waiter is FORCED to wait on a "nasty" customer. And the idea that the server/customer/tip relationship is the only other sales relationship that smacks of "prostitution." And that waitstaff are the only ones that have to put up with unpleasant, disagreeable, demanding customers.

And that if it were not for the current tipping policy, they wouldn't "be forced" to.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Jaymes (log)

[GordonCooks]

Pooling tips works well in smaller establishments. It promotes a team effort and does not short anyone taking care of the smaller jobs. One of my favorite spots has a server running food once a week and one serving as host/hostess. They all, incl the bartender, share equally nightly and rotate busy/slow positions.

As far as slackers, they don't last very long anywhere. Not places I dine and not places I've worked. Especially back when I bartended. FOH justice is swift

[dcarch]

"------My main issue with dcarch is the notion that a waiter is FORCED to wait on a "nasty" customer. And the idea that the server/customer/tip relationship is the only other sales relationship that smacks of "prostitution." And that waitstaff are the only ones that have to put up with unpleasant, disagreeable, demanding customers. And that if it were not for the current tipping policy, they wouldn't have to. -----"

I am not advising not to tip in today's reality. I am just finding the fundamental concept of the tipping practice very troubling.

A waiter has a professional job to do just like a doctor. He should not be bribed to do a better job. Do you tip a surgeon after a surgery? Most corporations have very strict policies of no gift accepting and there are no examples of gift/money accepting permitted in all political systems.

I am a good tipper, the waitstaff in my usual restaurants always give me bigger servings of desserts, free drinks (without the management’s knowledge). They wait on me before they wait on other customers who were there before me. Don’t tell me that is not bad.

dcarch

Edited August 1, 2011 by dcarch (log)

[jrshaul]

I can tell you that I owned a small business for about eight years. A travel agency. And I had overhead to pay and a payroll to meet. We certainly put up with a lot of jerks, and I damn well did expect my agents to deal with clients that they didn't particularly like. Of course, as I said above, there's a line, and if a client crossed over from being a jerk to being abusive, I told them to leave. But that only happened about three times or so over the eight years. An overbearing, demanding, know-it-all, "I've-traveled-all-over-the-world-and-I-never..." arrogant jerk, on the other hand, came in at least once a week. If my agents wanted to keep their jobs, the first thing we all needed to do was to keep our doors open in an increasingly difficult economy.

This anecdote brings forward once again the issue of payment. Bank tellers are paid by the hour: when times are good, they see no benefit, but when income slips, they do not directly face the consequences. Their business relationship is with their employer, not the customer, which can potentially allow for the situation outlined above. If the employer does not penalize indifferent service, no one else will.

The alternative, however, is much worse. In a restaurant, the employees are dependent on the customers directly; as a result, it is profitable to snub less wealthy tables in favor of lavishing attention on the moguls ordering magnums of champagne. While encouraging the occasional whale is good business, snubbing the rank and file is catastrophic in the long term.

During economic growth, income is steady and tips, even from less affluent patrons, are more than worth the effort required to obtain them. During recessions, it ceases to be a worthwhile pursuit.

I am a good tipper, the waitstaff in my usual restaurants always give me a bigger serving of desserts, free drinks (without the management’s knowledge). They wait on me before they wait on other customers who were there before me. Don’t tell me that is not bad.

This, in turn, leads to the poorly dressed schmuck at the next table recommending to all he knows to stay away unless wearing Armani.

[Kouign Aman]

The poorly dressed schmuck could instead thank profusely, and tip ridiculously high, and that will be remembered, thus improving service next time.

Not saying the pds should do such a thing, but it is an option.

And it does work (been there, done that, when not-returning was not an option).

Edited August 1, 2011 by Kouign Aman (log)

[annabelle]

This, in turn, leads to the poorly dressed schmuck at the next table recommending to all he knows to stay away unless wearing Armani.

"Sizing up" a customer by the way that they are dressed is a practice known as "cherry picking" and is to be discouraged by managment. That said, most experienced waitstaff do not like to wait on youngsters in an upscale place if they are not regular customers or known to staff because they have been coming there with their families since they were tots. Kids, and I mean high school and college kids, are demanding, messy, complaining, like to pull pranks on staff, and are generally a PITA. Add to it, as you yourself have stated previously, the fact that they don't tip well while running you ragged on top of it, most waiters won't knock themselves out for you.

[jrshaul]

Kids, and I mean high school and college kids, are demanding, messy, complaining, like to pull pranks on staff, and are generally a PITA. Add to it, as you yourself have stated previously, the fact that they don't tip well while running you ragged on top of it, most waiters won't knock themselves out for you.

I really hate this sort of behavior. I don't care if I'm statistically undesirable; if I pay the same money, I should in turn receive the same product. While my tab is generally not large, the percentage is equal if not greater than that of the people around me.

Another factor to consider: I've noticed that many of the more offensive eateries were those issuing the most coupons and discounts. I'm not nor have ever been a restauranteur, but this smacks of either poor business sense or desperation.

Two days ago, I visited a gastro-pub and enjoyed a soda and some snacks. The total tab for two was roughly $11, and I left a $3.50 tip. I was a bit underdressed and a traffic incident meant I waited some time before my friend arrived, but received nothing but smiles despite two free refills. Honestly, I'm surprised I received the service I did - and I'm definitely going back!

As far as I'm concerned, this is how things should be done. I get nice service despite a small order, and I leave a 27% gratuity. Fail to complete this arrangement, and I'll never return; do it consistently, and I'll come back again and again.

[dcarch]

This just happened to me a few days ago.

Four of us went to an up-scale midtown restaurant in NYC. After we were ushered to our table, the waiter gave us the menus.

The reason we went to that restaurant was because they were a participant of the NYC Restaurant Week. But the waiter did not give us the discounted Restaurant Week menu.

I asked for that menu, and got a little subtle dirty look from the waiter. We didn’t get much service through the whole meal.

Yes, I still tipped at the end.

dcarch

[Edward J]

Another factor to consider: I've noticed that many of the more offensive eateries were those issuing the most coupons and discounts. I'm not nor have ever been a restauranteur, but this smacks of either poor business sense or desperation.

A lot of ink has been spilled on coupons, group coupons, etc, and my hands are as inkstained as much as anyone else. From my observations, you WILL get "surly" service if such a coupon is produced, since a large portion of the coupon holders don't tip, and many are reluctant to pay applicable taxes as well.

It is poor business sense, and it is desaration, but also it is very aggresive sales promoters. I should know, I've flaty told two of them "No" and asked them to leave my premises, and I am still plagued by e-mails.

My secret conspiracy theory on why a lot of places use the group coupons? I think that the business is for sale, and it looks good to prospective buyers when the place is full.

[annabelle]

Kids, and I mean high school and college kids, are demanding, messy, complaining, like to pull pranks on staff, and are generally a PITA. Add to it, as you yourself have stated previously, the fact that they don't tip well while running you ragged on top of it, most waiters won't knock themselves out for you.

I really hate this sort of behavior. I don't care if I'm statistically undesirable; if I pay the same money, I should in turn receive the same product. While my tab is generally not large, the percentage is equal if not greater than that of the people around me.

Another factor to consider: I've noticed that many of the more offensive eateries were those issuing the most coupons and discounts. I'm not nor have ever been a restauranteur, but this smacks of either poor business sense or desperation.

Two days ago, I visited a gastro-pub and enjoyed a soda and some snacks. The total tab for two was roughly $11, and I left a $3.50 tip. I was a bit underdressed and a traffic incident meant I waited some time before my friend arrived, but received nothing but smiles despite two free refills. Honestly, I'm surprised I received the service I did - and I'm definitely going back!

As far as I'm concerned, this is how things should be done. I get nice service despite a small order, and I leave a 27% gratuity. Fail to complete this arrangement, and I'll never return; do it consistently, and I'll come back again and again.

The behavior of your peers or the waitstaff? As far as being statistically undesirable, get over it. Life isn't fair. I was in the least desirable demographic for ages when I was traveling a lot for work. Single white female dining alone. My advice? Eat at the bar.

[ermintrude]

Many moons ago when I worked as a waitress, I refused to work at places that pooled tips. I was a fantastic waitress. Attentive, not intrusive, had a great memory for special requests and frequent customers, in short, the customer was my guest and I treated him like a guest. I made a fortune. Pooling tips encourages slackers to do the bare minimum since they'll end up making the same money as everyone else while handicapping those who end up resenting the snot out of them for stealing a portion of their wages.

Great, ME ME ME. Lets assume they change the system from pooled so you get all the tips.

So either those people will now be on a lower wage so they will leave for a better paid place (as they must have been good enough to earn that or management should be on there case) so all the good dishwashers, preps, sous chefs and even the chef may leave and on the same base salary will probably not be as good, so standards will drop, less customers, tips will go down etc. The alternative is they raise the salaries of the back office staff and you can keep the tips, this works great but the prices on the menus will go up, also when times are lean management still need to pay back office full wages so more risk of lay-offs.

While a pooled system can "encourage slackers" there are things that can be done to sort this out. E.g. If one server consistently gets 10% tips and another 30% tips then that's a server problem to be investigated, addressed and penalised or rewarded. If tips drop/rise when a certain manager or chef etc are the same goes.

I strongly prefer the pooled "Optional Service Charge" + "Living wage" . I.e all staff get a basic living wage (This may be higher than minimum e.g. London, NYC etc) to this a service charge is added automatically as a percentage to your final bill. (In the UK this is 10 to 15%) this service charge (And we're on the case in the UK of some reassuringly who take this and do not pass the full amount on to staff - ask if so pay the bill by card and the rest by cash) is then pooled and split % wise depending on your role.

The key things are "Optional Service Charge" which means as a customer I do not have to pay this IF I did not receive the reasonable service. They can also choose to pay bill and service charge separately.

For establishments that include service, while under UK law service charge can be withheld I've only ever done it a few times, however if service is above average most people will leave a little more. So in the UK you can walk out of a restaurant and have paid your bill no problein NYC due to perhaps customer ignorance you have a server screaming where's my tip. In addition in the UK you get customers adding 20% to a bill that includes service (My restaurant is ..... please visit)

And the French Laundry was the first restaurant I found in the USA that included the service charge (Ok for all food, can you match the wines to food up to equivalent food value and add 20% on for yourself) - bill arrived, wine matching was 50% of food cost, zero service as it was factored in (left a few notes) but as it should be

[annabelle]

Oh, settle down. I waited tables more than 25 years ago in Southern California. I was giving an example, not making it all about me.

[haresfur]

Kids, and I mean high school and college kids, are demanding, messy, complaining, like to pull pranks on staff, and are generally a PITA. Add to it, as you yourself have stated previously, the fact that they don't tip well while running you ragged on top of it, most waiters won't knock themselves out for you.

I really hate this sort of behavior. I don't care if I'm statistically undesirable; if I pay the same money, I should in turn receive the same product. While my tab is generally not large, the percentage is equal if not greater than that of the people around me.

I agree that it is inappropriate to give poor service to someone based on generalities and stereotypes. College kids, women, race, it doesn't matter. It also becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy (see the OP's question). You give lousy service to someone because of their age, they don't tip well, then you think the poor tip is because of their age. This is one place the whole system breaks down - the payment for value is so vague that you can't tell if the poor tip is due to a cheap customer or to poor service. And a lot of people would rather blame someone else than look at their behavior.

I am eternally greatful to a waiter in a nice restaurant in Toronto when I just out of Uni, working temporarily in the company's head office and living on a per diem. He was helpful and treated me with kindess in a relaxed fashion in spite of (or because of) my cluelessness. I knew enough to tip resonably (probably not to the level deserved) but he gave me a good nudge along my life journey.

[patrickamory]

I know broke people who tip generously, and wealthy people who tip stingily (the latter always infuriate me).

[butterscotch]

I know broke people who tip generously, and wealthy people who tip stingily (the latter always infuriate me).

Those cheap tippers are the ones who say things like "They don't understand money."

[gadfly]

I have to say I don't find any of these complaints unreasonable. Several people focused on the dripping water but it was stated the the true objection would have been not being moved. Yes, mistakes happen but waiting 40 minutes and then not getting served at all? This means not only botching the order but not properly checking on the table and so realizing your mistake. Yes, the wrong food does go out at times, this is entirely the responsibility of the person taking the food out or the expeditor. every restuarant I've ever worked in puts a copy of the check up with the finished order, including special requests and allergies. I have spent most of my adult life in one part of a restaurant or another and these are ALL legitimate complaints and occur far more often than necessary. I have always tipped generously and been understanding of issues. I am also inclined to take any issues to Management first. That being said I am tipping for service, I expect it and don't particularly care why you can't provide it. If it is the fault of the establishment than I am sorry for you, but I am still paying for a certain experience. If you are not able to provide it then people should not be expected to pay for it.

Edited August 21, 2011 by gadfly (log)

[prasantrin]

Two weeks ago, I went to a restaurant where service was slow, but acceptable. Well, acceptable until we waited 30 minutes past getting all but one dish, only to find out they forgot to punch in the order for that one dish. Took another 20 minutes or so to finally get it. They did not comp anything, but I still tipped, though I only tipped 15% of the pre-tax bill (my standard is 15-20% post-tax).

Today I visited the same restaurant. And we waited and waited for our food, watching other tables that arrived well after our table get served. All this time, waitstaff passed our table, not acknowledging us (aside for when they first took our order and again when they brought our beverages). 40 minutes later, we asked what time it was (neither in my party had a watch) and pointed out that we had ordered 40 minutes earlier and still hadn't received anything. The server said she would check on our order, and we saw her look at the computer terminal, then rush to the owner, then together they rushed back to the terminal and started punching in our order. That's right, they hadn't even bothered to punch in our order. We stood up and left, not paying for our beverages (a pot of Chinese tea which we suspected contained re-used leaves), and certainly not leaving a tip.

I have never ever left a restaurant without at least one person in my party leaving a tip (I once, in a large group, had my order alone forgotten by the server. Everyone else tipped on their orders, but I did not). Or without paying. But in this case, I felt it was justified.

That being said, I live in Canada and in my area, there is no tipping wage so servers get $10/hour. Were my server getting $3/hour, I would probably have paid for the beverages, and maybe left a bit of change.

[Jenni]

Rona, I am curious that you didn't pay for your drinks. You had consumed though, so isn't that kind of stealing? Technically couldn't the restaurant have chased after you and made you pay? I am assuming that in this case they realised your extreme displeasure and made a decision to let it go.

I have on two occasions left a restaurant before my food arrived due to severe rudeness from staff and a wait of over 40 minutes. I did however leave money for the drinks that had been consumed by the group.

[prasantrin]

Had we just left without them knowing, I would say it were stealing. I left in a huff, but my dining companion did stop to speak briefly to the owner, and after questioning the owner about what happened (no answer was given, by the way, the only words that came out of the owners mouth were "I'm sorry"), told them we were leaving. At no time did the owner present a bill for the pot of tea (which probably cost them no more than 10cents, possibly much less if the tea leaves were, in fact, used, plus maybe 50 cents for the overhead involved in a pot of tea). That being said, at no time did my companion offer to pay and were we completely correct, we should have offered to do so at that time. After my companion followed me out of the restaurant, they did not rush out to ask us to pay for the tea. I'm guessing they were so embarrassed/caught off-guard at their complete incompetence, that they decided it was not appropriate it ask us to pay.

The odd thing about the lost order is that a computerized ticket with our order had been taped to our table (which is how we knew the time of the order), yet when they checked their computer, there was no evidence of that order. It must have been punched in, but it was likely deleted or not "entered", so they had to do it again. What was very stupid on their part was not to speak to us once they realized the error. Had they apologized and explained the situation rather than try to cover up their mistake (in a very public way since the order station is in clear view of the dining area), we probably wouldn't have been so pissed off. And we may just have left a (small) tip.

[threestars]

Well if I'm in that situation, I might do the same. I can't wait more than 30 minutes for the food that I ordered. I might lose my appetite there as well if that is the case. Well in some restaurants, they really serve complimentary tea while waiting for orders.

[Broken English]

If the restaurant is busy, I can tolerate 30 minute waits, particularly on straight up orders, or where I can see 20 people sat down at once, so long as the service is good and the waiters explain the situation.

[threestars]

If the restaurant is busy, I can tolerate 30 minute waits, particularly on straight up orders, or where I can see 20 people sat down at once, so long as the service is good and the waiters explain the situation.

Me too. I can tolerate that. But forgetting to punch your orders is definitely a different situation.

[prasantrin]

Similarly, last week I dined at a restaurant on a Tuesday evening. Tuesday evenings are not, afaik, normally busy for restaurants, but this place was packed. I overheard a server tell another table that she had never seen the restaurant so busy on a Tuesday. They were very understaffed, and we suffered waits for everything--from being seated (5-10 minutes just to have someone acknowledge our presence even though there were tables available) to paying our bill (20 minutes just to pay once we actually got the bill). I think we were there for more than two hours, but we only spent about 20 minutes of that time eating (we just had appetizers). And the food sucked--45 minute wait for overcooked, underseasoned food.

But I still tipped. 15% post tax. There were some things our server could have done better, but when she did have contact with us, she was friendly and helpful. I knew the place was far too busy for the number of staff on the floor, and I felt she was trying as best she could.

The place this weekend, on the other hand, had two other tables finishing up when we arrived, and maybe a total of three other parties entered the restaurant after us. It was around 3:20pm when we arrived, and our order was taken at 3:30, so it shouldn't have been (and it didn't appear to be) a busy time for the restaurant. Staff (both servers and the owner) passed our table many many times (probably a couple of dozen times or more), and never once thought to check on us or our order. No one seemed to care about us at any point during our time there.

We have been to this restaurant many times, and often get sub-par service there (that's just the way this restaurant is), but we still always tip. In this case, what happened was not acceptable, and so we didn't tip (or pay, but if they had asked us to pay for the tea, we would have. But we still wouldn't have tipped).

[Kouign Aman]

I've only been tempted to walk out once, and I would have paid for the beverages if we had. The 4 glasses of iced water wouldnt have set me back much.

Our party of 4 was seated, and placed a substantial order, including sashimi and sushi. We noticed parties of two being seated, and served, while we'd gotten nothing.

After about 25 min, we flagged our waitress, who asked the kitchen, and we were told it was their policy to assign a table (order) to a chef. So, small parties got fed fast, and big parties waited til the chef had something for everybody.

We suggested they consider re-working that policy. The nice lady lawyer aka pitbull in our group also suggested they have something on our table within 5 min or we would in fact walk. They managed. The food was good. I would not go back with a party larger than 2.

[carltinmar]

I give tip if the service is great. I wouldn't dare giving them anything if they don't do their work well, besides, they have salary