Restaurant Smoking Ban

[bourdain]

Who smokes? Who, exactly is sitting at the bar at 10AM, having a few pints, maybe a Cutty and water, a stack of wet singles in front of them, reading the Post sports pages, a Parliament or a Marlboro Light smoking in the ashtray? Who, exactly make up the majority of the huddled masses, hunched over their cigarettes , already herded out into the cold by their cruel yuppie masters? The working class..The immigrants. Secretaries, cooks, elevator repairmen, plumbers, electricians, day laborers, temps, dishwashers. It's class war--shoving these folks out into the cold, sniffing and coughing at their smoke when you pass them in the street. But of course, Rob Reiner and his kind know what's best for all of us, don't they? Rich white men who live in Westchester and Marin and Aspen, insulated from all those dirty, different people who they never liked anyway can make policy for all of us. Meanwhile, of course, these same non-smoking evangelists can feel free to topple their gas-guzzling SUV's on our highways, run us over with their Beemers and high performance murder-cars. The overfed can stuff their faces until they choke our hospitals with weight-related health problems, clog our emergency exits, take up three seats on the subway--and we are expected to enable them, subsidize them with the five dollar a pack tax whack we pay for smokes we can't even enjoy at our favorite dive anymore. Kick me out of your retaurants. Fine. I know that battle is lost. Most habitual smokers can't afford Danny Myers's bogus bbq anyway. But leave us our bars! You don't drink there anyway!

[Simon Majumdar]

Tony, what bollocks. Much as I love you like a brother ( not a favourite one mind you , more of a Fredo ) don't try and make the US smoking issue into a class war. It is nothing of the sort.

What it is, is another symptom of the US government's inability to let and the US people's inability to take responsibility for their own actions. You are living in a society where people can sue restaurants becuase they can't say no to food even though they need two seats on the bus, where people can sue musicians for recording songs that make them go out and shoot others then themselves ( have you noticed that most of the people who killed themselves after listening to Priest or Ozzy were congenitally stupid. Perhaps it is just natures way of culling ) and where smokers who put the filthy stick in their gobs and light it and inhale the stuff into their lungs despite the warning on the packet that says "this will kill you dickwad" can sue the companies that sell the stuff.

Few governments treat their citizens with the contempt the US government does and this is just one example. Bear in mind that you in the US are not considered grown up enough to have proper cheese.

I am not an ex smoker, with the exception of a handful of wonderful cigars, I am a never smoked, but people have every right to do what they want as long as their actions don't affect others. So, keep cigarettes out of restaurants where others will be forced to ingest it along with their food or give them a section, well ventilated where they can smoke without damaging the atmosphere for others, the same in bars.

But, make people responsible for their actions. If you smoke and become ill through smoke related illness, you should pay more for your treatment. If you are a fat through overeating, and are so obese that you take up two seats on the plane, you should pay for them without whining about discrimination. Why should I suffer from passive crushing because you wanted an extra donut?

So, what does class have to do with it? A porky schmuck with a malboro in his mouth is as likely to be reading the Wall St Journal as The New York Post.........

S

[Bux]

Who smokes? Who, exactly is sitting at the bar at 10AM, having a few pints, maybe a Cutty and water, a stack of wet singles in front of them, reading the Post sports pages, a Parliament or a Marlboro Light smoking in the ashtray? Who, exactly make up the majority of the huddled masses, hunched over their cigarettes , already herded out into the cold by their cruel yuppie masters? The working class..The immigrants. Secretaries, cooks, elevator repairmen, plumbers, electricians, day laborers, temps, dishwashers. It's class war--shoving these folks out into the cold, sniffing and coughing at their smoke when you pass them in the street. But of course, Rob Reiner and his kind know what's best for all of us, don't they? Rich white men who live in Westchester and Marin and Aspen, insulated from all those dirty, different people who they never liked anyway can make policy for all of  us. Meanwhile, of course, these same non-smoking evangelists can feel free to topple their gas-guzzling SUV's on our highways, run us over with their Beemers and high performance murder-cars. The overfed can stuff their faces until they choke our hospitals with weight-related health problems, clog our emergency exits, take up three seats on the subway--and we are expected to enable them, subsidize them with the five dollar a pack tax whack we pay for smokes we can't even enjoy at our favorite dive anymore. Kick me out of your retaurants. Fine. I know that battle is lost. Most habitual smokers can't afford Danny Myers's bogus bbq anyway. But leave us our bars! You don't drink there anyway!

Bullshit. I'm not necessarily a proponent of the new law. I've been willing to give up most bars to avoid the smoke, but I'm also not oblivious to the argument that workers are entitled to a reasonably healthy and comfortable environment. Even those who find the law unreasonable have some obligation to understand the arguments in favor and to address them. To dismiss this as class warfare is poetic rabble rousing, but otherwise an inconsequential whine in the discussion. Full dislcosure should require me to state that I don't own a Beemer or SUV. I haven't owned a car in about 35 years--couldn't afford to maintain one in NYC. I fit as well as most adults in a coach seat on an airplane.

[Marlene]

A class war? that's a new one. For the record we own both a Beemer and an SUV, live in an affluent neighbourhood and have six figure incomes. I am currently a smoker, my husband is an ex-smoker.

Somehow I don't think the classes have anything to do with this.

[bourdain]

Simon--you magnificent bastard! As usual, I agree wholeheartedly with your incisive deconstruction of my recent rant. You are absolutely right--the same screwheads who think it's okay to sue after pouring hot coffee on your genitals after stomping on the gas at the drive-through McDonalds want to "protect the workers" by marginalizing them, taxing them and shoving them out in the cold. The "it's somebody else's fault" mentality has become pervasive and infectious...with noone taking responsibility for their own choices. (Let it be said that when I drop dead of emphysema, I won't have been spending my last days trying to sue Philip Morris--or my boss--for letting me smoke)But let us not think for a second that the US is the politically correct capital of the world. As I recall, in the UK, it is perfectly okay for roaming bands of violent felons to invade your home in the wee hours, have their way with your household pets, flat screen TV and lovingly assembled collection of Rick Wakeman records--and if you should be so foolish as to blow off one of their kneecaps with grandpa's blunderbuss (or God forbid--kill one of the adorable, misguided tykes) YOU go to the slammer. See London's street crime stats. And you might want to take a look at Australia. They are increasingly making Marin County look like Weimar Germany. (all the while quietly penning up immigrants on a prison archipelago) My country has no exclusive on silliness, hypocricy, political correctness or zealotry.

[Rail Paul]

While we're at it, what's the status of the proposed laws which would prevent dry cleaning establishments from operating within residential buildings in NYC? Last I heard, the real estate interests had blocked that effort.

There was some concern that the noxious cleaning chemicals were drawn in the residential areas, harming people in their rent-controlled apartments. The usual "If they don't like it here, let 'em move" doesn't apply if you're holding a 1950s 6 room for which you pay $150 a month.

Unlike the restaurant issue, nobody seemed particularly concerned about the folks working in the cleaners, ingesting the chemicals.

[Simon Majumdar]

My country has no exclusive on silliness, hypocricy, political correctness or zealotry.

Quite right, but you can smoke here.

S

[Jaymes]

Who smokes? Who, exactly is sitting at the bar at 10AM, having a few pints, maybe a Cutty and water, a stack of wet singles in front of them, reading the Post sports pages, a Parliament or a Marlboro Light smoking in the ashtray? Who, exactly make up the majority of the huddled masses, hunched over their cigarettes , already herded out into the cold by their cruel yuppie masters? The working class..The immigrants. Secretaries, cooks, elevator repairmen, plumbers, electricians, day laborers, temps, dishwashers. It's class war--shoving these folks out into the cold, sniffing and coughing at their smoke when you pass them in the street. But of course, Rob Reiner and his kind know what's best for all of us, don't they? Rich white men who live in Westchester and Marin and Aspen, insulated from all those dirty, different people who they never liked anyway can make policy for all of  us. Meanwhile, of course, these same non-smoking evangelists can feel free to topple their gas-guzzling SUV's on our highways, run us over with their Beemers and high performance murder-cars. The overfed can stuff their faces until they choke our hospitals with weight-related health problems, clog our emergency exits, take up three seats on the subway--and we are expected to enable them, subsidize them with the five dollar a pack tax whack we pay for smokes we can't even enjoy at our favorite dive anymore. Kick me out of your retaurants. Fine. I know that battle is lost. Most habitual smokers can't afford Danny Myers's bogus bbq anyway. But leave us our bars! You don't drink there anyway!

Right.

Or they could just be recently-arrived, terribly chic and sophisticated, upper-class Europeans.

Edited December 14, 2002 by Jaymes (log)

[stefanyb]

Or they could just be recently-arrived, terribly chic and sophisticated, upper-class Europeans.

Not likely. More likely Euro-trash.

Actually, its not a class war in the manner that Tony describes at all. Its the tocacco companies who are your local pushers against the addicts they keep tethered to their dope. Why not just admitt it, Tony, they own you and you have nothing to say about it. Smoking is just government subsidized chemical servitude. Wake up and smell the..........oh, I forgot, you really can't smell anything, anymore.

Edited December 14, 2002 by stefanyb (log)

[bourdain]

BUX: "Entitled to a healthy work environment" ?? Yes. Entitled to not be exploited, mangled by unsafe equipment, worked to death etc. Sure. Absolutely. But a bar is not a coal mine. You are ENTITLED as a worker to make reasonable choices--and working in a fucking SALOON, by centuries of glorious tradition implies working around drinkers, smokers, and persons who might, conceivably smoke, drink too much and say "I love you, mannn" or break into an unwanted display of air-guitar. Are you suggesting we walk into Desmonds or Rudy's or the Holland Bar. at 11AM and tell the bar regulars they have to go outside to smoke--to protect the bartender? It's absurd. It's arrogant. It's wrong.

Is it conscious class war? Okay..No. not really. But who will take it in the neck first and hardest? Who will be left with the fewest options? For whom is a morning beer and a smoke at their local most precious?

Flag smoking bars with a big red sign (on an elective basis) if necessary--a warning to the non-smokers. Let non-smokers drink in clean, mallified, Houlihanesque, purified environments, far away from the "mud the blood and the beer".

Where does it end? What next?

The answer is Singapore.

[Jinmyo]

Where does it end? What next?

The answer is Singapore.

Oooh, I like that. I'd use it as my signature line but I'm being paid to advertise for the P's upcoming dread thread. Mebbe later.

[La Niña]

What about cigar bars? Now that really pisses me off. If a place is *called* a cigar bar, f'chrissakes, then let it stay a cigar bar. Nobody's forcing the people to to work there...I mean - where am I gonna go to have a drink and a cigar? Oy.

[tommy]

several, or all, cigar bars are exempt. at least according to every source i've read on the subject.

Edited December 14, 2002 by tommy (log)

[Simon Majumdar]

What about cigar bars?  Now that really pisses me off.  If a place is *called* a cigar bar, f'chrissakes, then let it stay a cigar bar.  Nobody's forcing the people to to work there...I mean - where am I gonna go to have a drink and a cigar?  Oy.

but at least unlike the rest of us you can light a cigar without matches. You can ignite it by breathing on it or, I am told just looking at it in a funny way

S

[La Niña]

True, true - but for that I have to go to *very special* cigar bars.

[Bux]

Lose the class war position and I'm happy to consider the re-legalization of public hell holes smelling of beer, piss and cigarettes. They can operate with or without a "hazardous to your health" warning over the door for all I care. We passed by one with an open door the other night and my wife made a face in reaction to the smell. Interestingly enough, the smoke made me gag but the undercurrent of stale beer brought back pleasant memories. There's no accounting for taste and I have a great respect for tradition. I left the bars by choice and recognize my failure to uphold the tradition. I recall an interview once with a great physicist whose father was a rabbi. The scientist was a rational man and a practicing atheist. When asked if his religion failed him, he replied that he had failed his religion.

The concern for employees is the one argument that makes me consider it may have been right to ban smoking from all bars. The waitress may need her job just as much as any office worker and deserves the same protection as the office worker. Just because it's a small office and the boss smokes, doesn't mean the employees don't get the same protection as in other jobs. That coal mines or dry cleaners are worse is irrelevant. I would excempt all locations where there are no employees that are not family. Otherwise you might just as well ban smoking in homes. For some that has already happened at the bar and that's the better argument for stopping the legislation.

On a personal level, the ban on smoking in offices has brought me nothing but grief. I don't work in an office and now I have to dodge the smoke in front of all midtown buidlings as I walk down the street.

[Nick]

Not that I frequent any, but a non-smoking bar just seems kind of pointless to me.

Why? The point of a bar is to drink alcohol in a social environment:.....Why does smoking have to be a part of that?

Why does wine drinking have to be a part of eating at an upscale place? Goes with the food you say. Tobacco goes with drink for some people. Good tobacco with good drink.

I'm with Bourdain. "But a bar is not a coal mine. You are ENTITLED as a worker to make reasonable choices--and working in a fucking SALOON, by centuries of glorious tradition implies working around drinkers, smokers, and persons who might, conceivably smoke, drink too much ...."

That goes for customers as well. You don't like smoke? Don't go there.

Edit: I don't like the smell of smoke rolling off those "factory-built" cigarettes any more than most people, but with the air handling systems, and filtration that comes with them, no one has to smell it in a "good" joint. Maybe it is a class thing. The "uppers" can't stand the sight of the "lowers" waving a cigarette around. And the "lowers" think the "uppers" look some foolish playing the wine game.

Edited December 14, 2002 by Nickn (log)

[tommy]

i like a good tug after a few beers. as far as i know, that's been outlawed at bars already. where will the insanity stop?

[Simon Majumdar]

i like a good tug after a few beers.

I can only assume that you don't know what that means in the UK????????

God bless Tommy

S

[Jason Perlow]

Meanwhile, of course, these same non-smoking evangelists can feel free to topple their gas-guzzling SUV's on our highways, run us over with their Beemers and high performance murder-cars. The overfed can stuff their faces until they choke our hospitals with weight-related health problems, clog our emergency exits, take up three seats on the subway...

HEY! Mister cancer sticks... I resemble that comment!

[bourdain]

Nothing personal brother. But if you're sitting by the exit door when the plane's sinking? I'll be huffing and puffing right over your ass--with a lit butt clenched between my teeth and a "flotation device" under my arm.. Don't expect me to wait.

[Stone]

Who smokes? Who, exactly is sitting at the bar at 10AM, having a few pints, maybe a Cutty and water, a stack of wet singles in front of them, reading the Post sports pages, a Parliament or a Marlboro Light smoking in the ashtray? Who, exactly make up the majority of the huddled masses, hunched over their cigarettes , already herded out into the cold by their cruel yuppie masters? The working class..The immigrants. Secretaries, cooks, elevator repairmen, plumbers, electricians, day laborers, temps, dishwashers. It's class war--shoving these folks out into the cold, sniffing and coughing at their smoke when you pass them in the street. But of course, Rob Reiner and his kind know what's best for all of us, don't they? Rich white men who live in Westchester and Marin and Aspen, insulated from all those dirty, different people who they never liked anyway can make policy for all of us. Meanwhile, of course, these same non-smoking evangelists can feel free to topple their gas-guzzling SUV's on our highways, run us over with their Beemers and high performance murder-cars. The overfed can stuff their faces until they choke our hospitals with weight-related health problems, clog our emergency exits, take up three seats on the subway--and we are expected to enable them, subsidize them with the five dollar a pack tax whack we pay for smokes we can't even enjoy at our favorite dive anymore. Kick me out of your retaurants. Fine. I know that battle is lost. Most habitual smokers can't afford Danny Myers's bogus bbq anyway. But leave us our bars! You don't drink there anyway!

Dude, kick up the exhaust fan a few notches. It's really getting to you.

After California's been smoke free for four years or so, I think they should get rid of the law but provide a small tax break (or other incentive) for smoke-free bars. See what the people think. If people really want smoke-free bars, they'll remain smoke free. I'm a life-long non-cigarette smoker, but I personally don't buy the 2nd-hand smoke/protect the worker argument. Anyone think it's a little too convenient and based on some real shakey evidence?

There are quite a few bars in SF that allow smoking (and many where you can expect a pipe or two to make the rounds). I find them more enjoyable than the others. Not necessarily because of the presence of the cigarette smoke, but because of the presence of the people who don't whine about the cigarette smoke. (and franky, once the pipe swings by a couple of times, I don't care who's there.)

(I just re-read this and realized that I've got to go cold-turkey on Plotnicki posts. Pretty soon I'll be quoting Rand.)

Edited December 15, 2002 by Dstone001 (log)

[Nick]

Nothing personal brother. But if you're sitting by the exit door when the plane's sinking? I'll be huffing and puffing right over your ass--with a lit butt clenched between my teeth and a "flotation device" under my arm.. Don't expect me to wait.

That ain't a little bit on the macho side of things is it?

[lizziee]

several, or all, cigar bars are exempt.  at least according to every source i've read on the subject.

Tommy, if that is true, it is hypercritical to allow cigar bars and only target cigarette smoking.

This is from the Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center

"Seeing Through the Smoke: The Dangers of Cigars"

"Since 1993, cigar use in the United States has increased by nearly 50 percent, according to the National Institutes of Health. This news is particularly troubling, as more and more scientific evidence links cigars with a variety of diseases, including lip, tongue, mouth, throat, esophagus, larynx, and lung cancers."

"Following are some facts you should know:

* Men who smoke three or more cigars a day have a 7.8-times-higher risk of getting lung cancer compared with nonsmokers.

* Cigar smokers who inhale deeply have 53 times the risk of cancer of the larynx, 27 times the risk of oral cancer, and 15 times the risk of esophageal cancer.

* Smoking just one to two cigars a day increases the risk of developing cancer of the larynx by more than six times that of a nonsmoker.

* Smoking one to two cigars a day doubles the risk for oral cancers and esophageal cancer.

* Cigar smokers have higher death rates from heart and lung disease than nonsmokers.

* Cigar smokers may spend up to an hour smoking a single large cigar that can contain as much tobacco as an entire pack of cigarettes.

* Cigars are a major source of secondhand smoke, which contains more than 4,000 chemicals, including 200 poisons and carcinogens."

(Sources: National Institutes of Health, American Cancer Society, American Lung Association)

[jaybee]

Fine. I know that battle is lost. Most habitual smokers can't afford Danny Myers's bogus bbq anyway. But leave us our bars! You don't drink there anyway!

I spent ten years working with the American Cancer Society on programs that are aimed at dissuading people (especially kids) from smoking. Poor people die at five times the rate of their wealthier countymen from lung cancer. But they also die of lots of other things much younger. Poor women are ten times more likely to have metasatic breast canccer by the time it it diagnosed.

I understand your rant over the self righteous posture against smoking that we hear so much of. Sure poverty is responsible for people not giving a shit about living ten more years. If your life sucks, why would you care about prolonging it?... until you are really faced with the prospect of such a tortured death.

If you saw them coughing up blood and bits of lung and struggling for air through the few remaining bronchial tubes that haven't been turned into dessicated black rubber, you wouldn't be so happy to see them sucking that poison into them. The fucking criminals who manufacture the stuff are no better than the makers of Zyklon B. They're happy to take the few bucks these poor bastards scrape together, multiplied by billions and live the high life. So I don't bemoan laws that make it harder for people to die such horrible deaths and deprive their poisoners of the pleasure from the profits of such deaths.

Hypocrisy? The US is not alone there, but when it comes to choosing between making money and millions dying, the money always talks louder.

Edited December 15, 2002 by jaybee (log)