Restaurant Smoking Ban

[cabrales]

The following is an MSNBC update regarding proposed legislation that may be pursued with respect to the banning of smoking in bars and in restaurants with fewer than 35 seats.

http://www.msnbc.com/local/WNBC/A1283585.asp?0si=-

[LaNiña]

I don't smoke cigarettes, but I think the extension is a bad thing. I do wish the current laws were enforced better, but I think smoking shouldn't be banned completely. I smoke a cigar now and then, I'd like to be able to do that inside. As long as I have the ability to eat without smoke nearby, I think the smokers should be able to smoke in a separate area.

[Matt Zito]

I don't smoke cigarettes, but I think the extension is a bad thing.  I do wish the current laws were enforced better, but I think smoking shouldn't be banned completely.  I smoke a cigar now and then, I'd like to be able to do that  inside.  As long as I have the ability to eat without smoke nearby, I think the smokers should be able to smoke in a separate area.

I'm less concerned about the restaurants - more about the bars. It seems silly to ban smoking in a place where you go to drink poison and get to meet complete strangers. And for the people who say they don't like being around smokers in bars, I dislike being around loud, agressive drunks who pick fights with me - I could always stay home.

Sorry if I'm being agressive myself, but the coworkers and I just had a 30-minute argument version of this discussion, so I'm all riled up.

[LaNiña]

I completely agree with you, Matt.

[Rail Paul]

There's case law in the US on employee rights when compellled to work in smoky environments. Flight attendant unions have won substantial judgements from the airlines for the unwilling exposure to second hand smoke with the resulting emphysema, lung cancer and other maladies. Bar tenders and waitresses are a good analog, I'd say.

The argument that they were free to pursue other employment didn't get to first base. This situation is a good example of class action lawsuits making sense

[glenn]

I'm kinda biased, but I think it's absolutely absurd to ban smoking in small places and bars.

top 5 or so...

Cigarettes & Coffee - Otis Redding

Tobacco Road - Blues Magoos

Smokin' 100s Alone - Bottle Rockets w/ the S. Plotzkie light show

Smokin' in the Boys Room - Motley Crue, Ramones

Cigarette Tricks - Guided by Voices

Tobacco's Last Stand - Guided by Voices

Smokin' Banana Peels - Dead Milkmen

Chew Tobacco Rag - Ray Campi

Smokin' in the United Nations - Wilson Pickett

[tommy]

It seems silly to ban smoking in a place where you go to drink poison and get to meet complete strangers.

why? there have been few, i'd say no, studies that have proven that your drinking affects the woman across the bar from you, or the person serving you your choice of poison.

poor analogy i'd say.

regards,

analogy police.

[jordyn]

why?  there have been few, i'd say no, studies that have proven that your drinking affects the woman across the bar from you, or the person serving you your choice of poison.

poor analogy i'd say.

Ever hear of drunk drivers?

[tommy]

why?  there have been few, i'd say no, studies that have proven that your drinking affects the woman across the bar from you, or the person serving you your choice of poison.

poor analogy i'd say.

Ever hear of drunk drivers?

poor analogy, again.

to extend this point, i'd like to suggest that drunk driving has already been made illegal.

[LaNiña]

I think the point was that alcohol is damaging to one's health. That's what was meant by "poison." So it seems a bit absurd to banish one poison in a place where the goal is to consume another poison.

[tommy]

I think the point was that alcohol is damaging to one's health.  That's what was meant by "poison."  So it seems a bit absurd to banish one poison in a place where the goal is to consume another poison.

[jordyn]

poor analogy, again.

to extend this point, i'd like to suggest that drunk driving has already been made illegal.

They're not exactly analogous, but it's a matter of degree. Is smoking more akin to drinking or to drunk driving? I'm not sure, but I suspect it's a little like both and not exactly like either.

According to my dictionary, analogies work by inferring that because things are alike in one respect, they will be alike in others. Analogies don't mean exactly identical situations.

[LaNiña]

Call me silly, but I'm fairly sure that Tommy understood the words.

[Fat Guy]

Nina, smoke them while you can. It will soon be illegal to smoke even in your own home, and it will also be illegal to manufacture them. It's only a matter of time. After all, the decision to smoke is never truly a private one: You may make yourself sick and therefore need expensive medical treatment that is a drain on society. You can never eliminate the effects of second-hand smoke if you have children or a spouse or a roommate. Smoking is the cause of many accidental fires. How can it remain legal in this enlightened day and age?

[LaNiña]

Oy. Better eat a lot of chicken fat, too, while I'm at it.

[glenn]

FG, I don't know if that argument is so different than suing a company, i.e., fast food chain, for serving fatty food. Do we really need more laws? I hate to sound like a gun toting nra dufus, but enough of big brother already. And an argument could be made as to how enlightened we really are, but that's another argument.

[LaNiña]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe FG was being s-a-r-c-a-s-t-i-c.

[glenn]

Oh well, then I was too :).

[tommy]

Call me silly, but I'm fairly sure that Tommy understood the words.

again, as rail paul suggested, the point of the law isn't to save the smokers from themselves, but rather to save the people around the smokers from the smokers. if one acknowldedges this, then i can't see how they could use the "well if you're drinking then you're killing yourself anyway so why not be allowed to smoke and shoot heroin too" defense.

so yes, i understood the words, but they weren't addressing the real issue, which is the health risk of people around those who are "killing themselves" with that chardonnay and butt.

[Fat Guy]

Tommy: Does the "you can work somewhere else" argument not work for you?

[tommy]

Tommy: Does the "you can work somewhere else" argument not work for you?

yes, it does not work for me.

and,

what is it about a bar that separates it from every other building in NYC where clean air is a right and smoking is illegal? aside from personal residences of course.

[glenn]

I could go on and on, but why do we need a law to curb what is considered unsocial or unhealthy behavior? If I wanna open a bar or any business for that matter, I don't think the government has any right to tell me how not to run it. If drinkers want a smoke free environment, then eventually bars will open to fit their needs. And if you don't want to work in such an environment, no one is twisting your arm. Basic economics, adam smith, etc.

[jordyn]

Glenn:

If you accept the premise that secondhand smoke kills other people, the answer to your question becomes fairly obvious.

Having said that, I think Bloomberg's current proposal may take things too far. I don't smoke. I hate smoke. But a lot of people do smoke, and they probably ought to have some public place where they can do so. That being said, if it's every restaurant/bar in the City, the "you can work somewhere else" argument begins to lose its luster, so perhaps some sort of middle ground is appropriate. I'm not sure how to get there without some silly licensing scheme, though.

[tommy]

and they probably ought to have some public place where they can do so.

why?

and glenn, you do realize of course that bars are pretty much the only public places left in ny city where you can smoke. there are plenty of other business owners who aren't allowed to smoke in the businesses. there is precendent for this. please explain why a bar is different from every other business.

[Jaymes]

There have been few, i'd say no, studies that have proven that your drinking affects the woman across the bar from you...

I wouldn't say that. I've been told on very good authority that it makes them prettier.