Do You Say Something Or Not?

Jaymes · February 10, 2009

I'm a 15-20 percenter, myself, also with "random additional generosity." I never lower the tip because of problems for which I deem the kitchen most likely responsible.
The only time I tip less than 10% is not for bad service - it's for surly or rude service, which is pretty rare. And I'd be more than happy to explain why. Fortunately (or unfortunately, as the case may be), I've never been asked.
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I am as well, although where I differ is in tipping for rude or surly service. In that case, they aren't getting anything from me. Why would I give someone anything extra to be rude to me? If such people continue to make tips for such lack of service, what incentive do they have to change?

When I say that I tip "less than 10%," I mean that 10% is my bottom figure for anything other than rude or surly service. If that's the case, I, too, usually leave nothing but a comment to the manager on my way out.

Lupinus · February 10, 2009

If I leave a poor tip, it was for a reason. I may choose to express that reason, I may not think it worth my time. That is my prerogative. So if a restaurant employee ever followed me out to the parking lot asking about the tip, I would then most certainly express it to the manager as well as the fact I don't like being bitched at by their wait staff.

That said, if you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to go out. 15-18% is customary for OK/good but not above and beyond service, 20% for good service, more if you are a pain in the ass and know it. Is it voluntary? Yes. However, one must keep in mind that it is also customary and expected for you to do so. Lots of things in life are this way from being quite at the theatre to having and displaying good manners. It's understood, it's expected, and you should expect to be thought an ass if you vary to far from it for no good reason.

Those of you wishing to be a jerk because it's not mandatory should have your next meal out served in your lap. You probably also wonder why you get shift service on return trips when you tip poorly for no reason or leave no tip.

As to foreign customers, an unobtrusive but obvious reminder on the menu is a better idea then verbally pointing it out.

tsquare · February 11, 2009

For awhile, I was seeing a small set of tip % on the bottom of printed invoices - x = 15%, y = 20%, z = 25%. It was odd - I can do the math (as can my cellphone) but it sure was a clear reminder to tip and what is customary. Not a bad solution, I suppose.

-sheila mooney · February 11, 2009

You just fundamentally don't like to tip.
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there you go: some people just *hate* to tip. and will spend hours rationalizing their stinginess with specious comparisons. other people feel like bigshots when they tip large -- maybe that's pathetic too, but in my world, the generous thing is always the right thing to do.

TheFoodTutor · February 11, 2009

As to foreign customers, an unobtrusive but obvious reminder on the menu is a better idea then verbally pointing it out.
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The obvious, yet not-so-obvious problem here is that many patrons do not read the menu. A large part of my job is to read the menu for my guests, although I have reason to believe that many of those same patrons are not illiterate. They seem to be very able to text message on their phones, and yet they seem to be unable to notice the soup calendar on the menu, as evidenced by the question, "And what is your soup today?" after I list the featured specials at the table. If the soup of the day was as constantly changing as the fresh, grilled fish selections, I'd automatically state it as part of my spiel. And the soup calendar is prominent at the top right of a very simple menu, so it's hard to imagine how many people don't notice it, except for the fact that I've come to believe that the average guest does not read the menu, or at least not very closely.

And that's alright. Lots of people don't like to read, and don't want to be bothered with reading, when they want something to eat.

The statement about tipping is at the bottom of the menu, which is only one page, and while I'm having trouble with the idea of something that is "unobtrusive but obvious," there still seem to be a myriad of people who do not notice it. Many people don't notice the bit about an auto-gratuity of 18% being added to parties of 5 or more, even though it is clearly stated on the menu that every guest receives.

How, exactly, does a restaurant make something like this, "unobtrusive but obvious?"

Tri2Cook · February 11, 2009

But to say that it's just fine to confront and challenge a customer? No. Never. It's just not. And I don't care how pissed off you are. Don't do it unless your plan is to "educate" them as part of your final hurrah, on your way out the door permanently.
Which you sure would be if I owned the restaurant.
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Agreed. I never debated that point. That's what I said in my very first post in this thread. It's absolutely unacceptable under any circumstance. I was just adding that I can definitely understand why a server may want to sometimes. Wanting to is ok... actually doing it is not.

paulraphael · February 11, 2009

The obvious, yet not-so-obvious problem here is that many patrons do not read the menu.

Many restaurants and bars that see a lot of tourist traffic (like in hotels) solve the tip problem by adding a service charge to all checks. But then the shoe is on the other foot ... since so many patrons fail to read the menu, they often double tip by mistake.

In this situtaion it's up to the good will of the server to point the service charge, preferably up front.

I think this is a pretty good system overall. When I complained to my friend that it removed your right to pay less for bad service, she said that it doesn't. You're not obligated to pay the 18% (or whatever) service charge. You could always pay less. In this case you're making a clear statement: you know what the expected charge is and you're deliberately paying less. You're not just someone who's absent-minded or who doesn't understand the system.

At the same time it impresses upon the diner that a tip is not, in fact a "gratuity" ... it's a charge for service. It's separate, it's flexible, but it's part of the cost of the meal.

KatieLoeb · February 11, 2009

Katie:
I'm not denying that you make your living from tips. However I don't see how you can justify expecting me to pay you at a rate that gives you double what the chef gets, or that a job like a nurse earns.
Saying its a lousy system but since its common we must use it is a poor argument. That way it will never change. Banker's bonuses are justified the same way. There is a better way.
I still can't make the sums work.
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This isn't about making the sums work. And I can completely assure you with the utmost certainty that I am not making anything close to what my salaried chef makes every week. His paycheck is the same regardless of how many people come in the door, and more importantly, regardless of how they tip.

Let's analyze the flaws in your math using the example you've given.

Say 4 top x $100 each = $400. 20% would be $80, and for 4 tables thats $320 for 3 hours work, or over $100/hour Not many jobs pay that

If I worked at a place where the per customer average were $100 I'd be giggling like a schoolgirl. Instead I am dealing with about a $28/head average between the customers that are actually eating at the bar and those that are just having a couple of drinks. I also work in a "pooled house", meaning my tips are shared with the other wait staff and theirs with me. In other places of employ I have kept my own tips but had to "tip out" the other staff in percentages ranging from 25% to 40% of what I made myself. My restaurant seats about 30 people on the first floor plus 10 bar stools. If we are busy enough to justify opening up extra seating on the second floor, one or two other waiters are now in the tip pool and the grand total of tips is getting prorated over more people based on the number of hours they worked (some folks can leave early once the rush is over).

And that $320 I've theoretically made in three hours (but actually haven't because those customer averages are completely inaccurate) is actually spread out over the course of the entire evening. I arrive at 4 PM to set up. The front door is unlocked at 5PM. More often than not, there aren't an abundance of customers before 6:30. Depending on the night of the week I either get done at midnight (weeknights) or 2AM (weekends), but I'm often there later than that restocking the bar, gassing the wine bottles for preservation, helping count the drawer, polishing glassware, putting away all of my garnishes, fresh fruit, juices, etc. That mythical $320 isn't going as far anymore, is it? And if the dining room wasn't busy the server's bad night becomes mine too (and vice versa on other nights). These are the joys of a pooled house. I am making nowhere near a banker's bonus, nor am I keeping "banker's hours". I'm making no bonuses at all, just my piddling $2.83/hr. and 15-20% of a lot less than the example posited. In fact, I can't even get paid overtime. I lost a shift because I was working more than 40 hours per week and it was deemed unworthy to pay me the time and half at $4.25/hr. The solution was to cut a day off my schedule. I dream of a world where I am paid a living wage and there's hope for promotion to a better hourly wage based on my performance, my work ethic, the amount of business I bring in and the amount of positive press I generate for my place of employ. Right now, not happening, and realistically, not happening anywhere I'm not management and have a performance based bonus built into my employment contract.

We change the system by not supporting it. 20% is outrageous.

No, you don't, and no it's not. You just make me and my hardworking colleagues in the well worn shoes suffer and starve. No amount of standing on principle will make that any different. And again, at no point have I suggested confronting a customer in a rude manner. Quite honestly, I hate having to even ask politely, but when my livelihood literally depends on it, I get over myself and try and suss out the problem.

...That said, if you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to go out. 15-18% is customary for OK/good but not above and beyond service, 20% for good service, more if you are a pain in the ass and know it. Is it voluntary? Yes. However, one must keep in mind that it is also customary and expected for you to do so. Lots of things in life are this way from being quite at the theatre to having and displaying good manners. It's understood, it's expected, and you should expect to be thought an ass if you vary to far from it for no good reason.
Those of you wishing to be a jerk because it's not mandatory should have your next meal out served in your lap. You probably also wonder why you get shift service on return trips when you tip poorly for no reason or leave no tip...
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Said far more eloquently than I possibly could.

Katie, I'm very sorry that the industry is the way it is, however, I don't think I as a customer am required to make up your wages. If tipping is voluntary, then it is voluntary. There are those who will tip and those who won't. You do the job because you love it, that's great.
But VOLUNTARY is the key word here. If the industry continues to not want to pay a decent wage to their staff then maybe there needs to be an organized effort to get it to do so. If the industry wants the customer to make up the difference, then start adding service charge of 15-20% to the bill and make that known on the menu.
Then people will not have to tip, it's included up front, and the industry doesn't have to pay you anymore money. And call it what it is, a service charge. And then no one should complain when people don't give extra over that required amount.
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Marlene, my point is that it really ISN'T voluntary. As Lupinus so correctly and succinctly pointed out, it's CUSTOMARY for a reason. It's a majority part of my wages. Yes that sucks. Yes that needs to change, but until it does I don't understand how anyone that genuinely understands that could make me suffer on principle provided I've done my job well. The system probably won't change unless our entire Democratic system of government goes Socialist. Even now, server wages are regulated on a state by state basis. And if restaurateurs that are paying a lot of wage and business taxes don't want to change a system where their payroll is small and predictable for the front of the house, then it won't. They're calling the shots, not the guys making $2.83/hour.

As for the earlier comments about "not passing that way again" or not wanting to "form relationships", by that logic I could simply refuse to pay the lawyer, the doctor or the locksmith, or just pay them what I deemed was "appropriate", after I've convinced myself that I understand the particulars of their business model well enough to presume to decide what that is. After all, just as there are other restaurants to patronize, there is an entire Yellow Pages full of other lawyers, doctors and locksmiths I could call next time. Flaw with this is that I'd get arrested for "theft of services". Same thing if you skipped out on the restaurant bill. But if you simply choose to stiff the waiter on stubborn principle or even because you're just a cheap bastard, nothing happens. There's no "theft of wages" charge to be levelled, even though in effect that's exactly what has happened. You've "engaged my services" for a couple of hours, and in no way am I suggesting that I've cured cancer or performed life saving surgery, but if I have enhanced your enjoyment of the evening with knowledgeable service, assistance with menu choices, a well crafted beverage, an excellent wine or beer pairing suggestion to compliment your menu selections, and some witty repartee (or not, leaving you to your dining companions if that's the vibe you've given me), have I not earned my keep?? If you can answer that question with a clear conscience and still stiff me from the "customary" percentages, I guess I have no other arguments for you. And that's not a guilt trip, that's just a statement of fact.

Edited February 11, 2009 by KatieLoeb (log)

jackal10 · February 11, 2009

You say you have 40 covers (not counting the upper floor), with an average spend of $28.

Lets say 50% average occupancy - any lower and the viability of the restaurant is doubtful. You don't say how often you turn a table in the 6 hours you are open, but lets say 3 times. So 40*28*3/2 = $1680 take, 20% tip is $336

15% is $252 Thats $42/hour Tipping out 40% still leaves $25/hour plus basic. You may also get some tips in from the shared pool - it goes both ways.

Yes I am a cheapjack, but it seems to me that you are complaining not about subsistence wages with starvation and eviction f I pay 10% rather than 20%, but a take home much above that. It is a low paid industry,

You are in a position where your wages are variable depending on how many customers you serve, but where you don't have control of things that influence that like advertising or pricing. Maybe you should talk to the management about gettting more customers through the door, so your tips go up, rather than hassling customers to pay you more

In Russia they had a system where the kitchen sold the food to the FoH who resold it at whatever price they chose. I don't advocate that either.

If service is part of the cost of a meal then it should be in the price; anything else is dishonest advertising. I don't buy groceries only to be told at the till that the price is 20% more or just "expected" to pay the till person an extra 20%... Why should I in a restaurant?

I can see we will not agree, and the cutures are different. Lets agree to disagree and leave it there.

Edited February 11, 2009 by jackal10 (log)

KatieLoeb · February 11, 2009

It's clear that you still are presuming to "do the math", calculate what you mistakenly believe I or any other waiter/bartender is making and conclude that legitimizes undertipping from what is customary. The word "voluntary" is semantics here, unless you've truly received poor service. Check the number of hours my restaurant is open. It's either 7 hours on a short day, or 9 hours on a weekend night. And that doesn't count the time before and after the customers are in the building during which time I am still working. When you say the "cultures are different" you're giving away that you come from a culture where the waitstaff ARE paid a decent living wage and tipping is neither expected or customary. But you're HERE IN THE US, where it's different. I think I've explained the many ways that it's different and why that won't be changing any time soon as clearly as I'm able. Being recalcitrant and refusing to tip because you think the system is flawed is neither expressing your displeasure with the system nor truly advocating any sort of proactive change in the system. It's just stiffing the waitstaff. And labelling you a cheapskate, which you seem comfortable with saying out loud yourself, so I guess there's no shame in that for you. In fact, you seem perversely proud of it. But that's not the point. Regardless, I'm not hassling anyone for a bigger tip, I'm just trying to explain the flaws in your logic and the inaccuracies in your calculations that you seem to be using to justify not tipping appropriately. There's a reason I get defensive about bad tips. It's most of what I earn under the poorly designed system I'm forced to work under. I try my very best each and every shift to earn every dime of it. And customers that are not capable of expressing their gratitude for excellent service in the customary and monetary way are not going to be my favorite customers. Especially if their logic is as inaccurate and flawed as yours.

I'll shut up now. I think I've explained this to the best of my ability. I'll agree we disagree. I won't agree to disagree without respectfully trying to persuade you with a logical argument from my perspective. Whether you're sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA I can't HEAR you" or not. :smile:

**nickrey** · February 11, 2009

I haven't read this thread before because it seems that this is very much a US-centric discussion. But here is something of a cross-cultural perspective.

In Australia and a number of other places, we pay our wait staff a living wage. A tip is something you leave behind when you are extremely pleased with the service. On travelling, we are drilled in this mysterious practice of the tip and our conventional wisdom is around 15% of the bill. We pay this in recognition that your pay system is totally in violation of normal practice in most of the rest of the world.

As outsiders travelling in your country, we may sometimes not be aware of normal practice and may be considered a bit rude when judged against your normal standards.

If someone has been raised in your culture I'm at a loss to explain why they do not leave tips, unless the service is far from acceptable, when it would seem a legitimate protest.

It seems a form of rudeness and insensitivity in your culture to not pay a tip when the service is positive, even if you are not that pleased with what the kitchen produces.

As for discussions of potential earnings as we have seen in recent blogs, if you have the potential to earn more than others in equivalent positions, it may be that you are tacitly acknowledging the gamble involved in what you do. In this case, the rewards can far exceed the costs. To then argue that it is not fair may be trying to play both sides.

If the consumer is paying this anyway, why not agitate for fair wages? Of course, your take home pay may wind up being less that way; which do you want?

pastrygirl · February 11, 2009

I generally try to stay out of tipping threads but I have a question for Katie and other servers. I don't want to pry, but you keep disputing Jackal's math without giving your own numbers.

So, how much do you take home on a good night? On a bad night? What does that work out to as an hourly income (including your $2.83 wage paid by the restaurant)? Sure, sometimes you have a long slow shift, sometimes you have a short busy shift. What is the range? What is the average?

If there was no tipping at all, illegal, a banned practice, and servers were paid hourly, how much should a server at various places be paid as an hourly rate....at IHOP? At the neighborhood bistro? At the special occasion steak house? At the five star destination restaurant?

For diners, what do you think a fair hourly wage would be based on the level of service you prefer? 10? 15? 20? 25? more?

For servers, what hourly wage would make doing the job still worth doing, whether you love it or not? 10? 15? 20? 25? more?

The cooks are probably paid around 10 to 15 an hour DOE, and I don't see any reason why servers should expect more than that. It takes both sides to make a restaurant successful. If everyone in the whole restaurant can make more, that would be fabulous. Right now, in many states, servers rely on the customer to provide most of their income. Is it happening and people just want more, or is it not happening to the degree that people want to chase down the customer and demand more? If servers are getting less than $10 to 15 an hour (or whatever a similarly experienced cook at that particular restaurant makes) averaged over the year, then they have a valid argument about everyone tipping better. Sure the chef, sous chef, and pastry chef are all probably salaried, but when you break it down into hours worked and overtime not earned, those salaries start looking pretty pathetic. Katie, you can do that math when you get a management position. The sous chef at a nice place might make $50k if he's lucky, but working 70 hours a week, it's the same hourly rate as the line cooks, or less. There is a trade off for everything.

TheFoodTutor · February 11, 2009

The cooks are probably paid around 10 to 15 an hour DOE, and I don't see any reason why servers should expect more than that.

I do. And so do they.

We have a long-time line cook who works in our restaurant during the day, and in the evenings he works front of the house at a fine dining Italian restaurant on the north side of town. He is capable of doing both jobs, he speaks enough English to do both jobs and he is aware of the difference in pay rate for the two. Still, he likes working in the kitchen at my restaurant because back there he doesn't have to put up with the guests. Having worked every position that there is to work in a restaurant, I see his point.

Some of our other cooks would not be able to work as servers because their English skills are not good enough, or in some cases, their personalities simply would be disastrous if they were allowed to mingle with the guests. We also have a dishwasher who has worked for the company for a very long time who would be unable to be a server because he cannot read or write. He has many friends who help him out, and I'm certain many people would help him to learn to read, but he clearly doesn't want to, nor does he have any desire to be out on the floor dealing with guests.

I don't think it's really a valid comparison, discussing wages for cooks vs. servers. It's a different skill set, and therefore it's a different job. For this skill, you get paid this, and for that one, you get paid that. My boyfriend is a Polymer Chemist who develops spray polymers for specific uses, and yet he gets paid less by the same company as those who sell the polymers that he develops. Is this fair? Maybe not, but he has no interest in selling, so he does what he likes to do.

I must admit that I take a slightly perverse interest in seeing how quickly this thread is growing. I love a good tipping discussion!

Florida · February 11, 2009

First of all, in response to the original question, confronting a customer is unacceptable under all circumstances.

Second, restaurants are restaurants. They're not schools. It's not anyone's job, responsibility, or right to “educate” the customer. As a former BOH person, I couldn’t tell you how many times I would get complaints about over/under cooking a steak, when the steak was cooked exactly as requested. As a cook, it would never be acceptable for me to walk out of the kitchen and “educate” a customer that the medium-rare steak they ordered is 130-135 degrees, but what they really wanted is a medium steak which is 140-145 degrees.

Third, if you’re a server, you know the how the system works when you take the job. 15% tip is customary. Sometimes you get it, sometimes you don’t, but it’s not as if you didn’t know that before you took the job. And on the slight chance you really didn’t know it, I’m positive it’s fully explained to you at the time of hiring. Plus, let’s be realistic here, the vast majority of servers aren’t declaring 100% of their cash tips to Uncle Sam anyway, which turns out to be a nice little tax break at the end of the day.

Simply put: If you want to play the game, you play by the rules, and you don’t cry when you lose.

Jaymes · February 11, 2009

Simply put: If you want to play the game, you play by the rules, and you don’t cry when you lose.

Actually, speaking just for myself as someone that is often sitting in a restaurant trying to enjoy my meal, for which I'm paying a fair sum, and for which I'm leaving a fair tip, I don't care if you cry when you lose. I don't care if you cry, whine, gnash your teeth, bang pots and pans, stomp your feet, roll your eyes, scream, holler and loudly complain.

Just please don't do it to the customer next to me.

:cool:

Edited February 11, 2009 by Jaymes (log)

pax · February 11, 2009

Simply put: If you want to play the game, you play by the rules, and you don’t cry when you lose.
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It's not a game, it's people's livelihoods, and sometimes it's the best to be had. Why punish a server for the status quo? That seems very misplaced.

Florida · February 11, 2009

Simply put: If you want to play the game, you play by the rules, and you don’t cry when you lose.
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It's not a game, it's people's livelihoods, and sometimes it's the best to be had. Why punish a server for the status quo? That seems very misplaced.
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You're right, it's not a game. It's a metaphor.

And I am not suggesting "punishing" anyone (other than a server who has the audacity to confront someone regarding a poor tip).

What I am saying, and said quite clearly, is that the custom of tipping is quite well known to all of those involved in the process. If you don't want to earn your wages in the form of tips, get another job.

Look at it this way, I lost about 30% in my 401k last year. I knew the risks involved with investing and I lost. I don't look at my losses as a form of "punishment" and I can ensure you my 401k is certainly part of my "livelihood." I knew the risks before investing, I still invested, and I lost. It sucks (it sucks a lot) but no one forced me to make the investments I made. And no one is being forced to work as a waiter/waitress. If you choose the occupation, you choose it with the full knowledge of the way the system works.

KatieLoeb · February 11, 2009

I generally try to stay out of tipping threads but I have a question for Katie and other servers. I don't want to pry, but you keep disputing Jackal's math without giving your own numbers.
So, how much do you take home on a good night? On a bad night? What does that work out to as an hourly income (including your $2.83 wage paid by the restaurant)? Sure, sometimes you have a long slow shift, sometimes you have a short busy shift. What is the range? What is the average?
If there was no tipping at all, illegal, a banned practice, and servers were paid hourly, how much should a server at various places be paid as an hourly rate....at IHOP? At the neighborhood bistro? At the special occasion steak house? At the five star destination restaurant?
For diners, what do you think a fair hourly wage would be based on the level of service you prefer? 10? 15? 20? 25? more?
For servers, what hourly wage would make doing the job still worth doing, whether you love it or not? 10? 15? 20? 25? more?
The cooks are probably paid around 10 to 15 an hour DOE, and I don't see any reason why servers should expect more than that. It takes both sides to make a restaurant successful. If everyone in the whole restaurant can make more, that would be fabulous. Right now, in many states, servers rely on the customer to provide most of their income. Is it happening and people just want more, or is it not happening to the degree that people want to chase down the customer and demand more? If servers are getting less than $10 to 15 an hour (or whatever a similarly experienced cook at that particular restaurant makes) averaged over the year, then they have a valid argument about everyone tipping better. Sure the chef, sous chef, and pastry chef are all probably salaried, but when you break it down into hours worked and overtime not earned, those salaries start looking pretty pathetic. Katie, you can do that math when you get a management position. The sous chef at a nice place might make $50k if he's lucky, but working 70 hours a week, it's the same hourly rate as the line cooks, or less. There is a trade off for everything.
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On a bad night I make $20 in tips +2.83/hr, for 4 hours work if I go home at 8PM because it's dead. Just barely minimum wage. On a good night I make $150 in tips for about 10 hours work +2.83/hr., so about 17.83/hr. The hourly wage as well as all my credit card tips are taxed. A small portion of cash is also reported, but we are almost exclusively a credit card house.

I think my skill set should place me far above minimum wage and again, I dream of a system where there's room for promotion, advancement and bonuses based on merit. I'd be happy to make $50-70K annually and I think I deserve it based on my years of experience and skills. When I see the little twits with absolutely no skills (or personalities) whatsoever, that are barely old enough to drink legally themselves making ridiclulous money they put up their noses or spend to get drunk and then call out hungover the next day it enrages me. They don't take their job seriously and they get rewarded for it because they're 22 and a size 2. But that's another discussion...

boagman · February 11, 2009

Here's another thread from a while back that reflects many of the same viewpoints that are expressed in this very thread:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=116370&hl=

The more things change, the more they stay the same, it would appear.

Jaymes · February 11, 2009

Here's another thread from a while back that reflects many of the same viewpoints that are expressed in this very thread:
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=116370&hl=
The more things change, the more they stay the same, it would appear.
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Yep. The only new wrinkle is whether or not it's just fine to confront the customer.

Mano · February 12, 2009

Your tax dollars at work:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos162.htm

Whether or not you agree with the info, particularly as it may specifically relate to you, IMO this reference source is generally excellent. For years it has provided a straight-forward account of most any job an American may be interested in pursuing. I have to agree that if you know ahead of time what your profession pays for the work required it's up to you to stay with it.

Katie, for those of you who don't know, is a master at mixing and creating drinks and is a professional in the truest sense of the word. No doubt her experience and abilities to not only make and serve drinks, but set up a bar/wine service for a restaurant and run it profitably warrant $50K - $70K a year. The problem is, most restaurant owners cannot afford that and most patrons don't understand or appreciate her worth. They're going to give bigger tips to the college cutie who knows a thimble-full of what Katie knows.

pastrygirl · February 12, 2009

On a bad night I make $20 in tips +2.83/hr, for 4 hours work if I go home at 8PM because it's dead. Just barely minimum wage. On a good night I make $150 in tips for about 10 hours work +2.83/hr., so about 17.83/hr. The hourly wage as well as all my credit card tips are taxed. A small portion of cash is also reported, but we are almost exclusively a credit card house.
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Katie, I appreciate your honesty. Understandably in these times you're probably going to have more bad nights than good nights, and that is hard. It is hard to not have a great income, it is hard to want to work but there is no business, hard when you are at the grocery store trying to find the cheapest food you possibly can and your old junker car just broke down again and you really don't have $600 to fix it. I spent entirely too much of my 20's living that way, and it really sucked, but in truth I was also irresponsible with my spending - when you make $9 an hour, you really can't afford to go out to dinner that often, a fact I was in denial about. But still, I understand the frustration of living paycheck to paycheck and having debt.

But I think why people get so fired up over this, is that a lot of servers seem to think they 'deserve' to have a good night every night. They brag about how much they made on a busy Saturday and whine and moan on a slow Tuesday. Every night is not Saturday night, so each person has to decide for his or herself if the average wage ends up being worth it. If people think they should be averaging $20 an hour but in truth they only average $14, they need to examine whether they still want to do that job for that wage, instead of demanding that now everyone has to tip 25% instead of 15. Like someone said above, servers tend to resist the service charges when restaurants try to implement them, choosing instead to take the gamble. If serving was truly a hellacious, underpaid job, there would be unions, organizations, strikes, etc. But it seems to work for a lot of people, at least in good times. Now that we are in bad times, pretty much everyone is struggling or know someone who is, not just servers and restaurants. Talk to someone in Detroit who lost their job after 30 years at GM and whose 401K is shot and doesn't have a whole lot of job options at the age of 50. Talk to a car salesman who works on commission and used to sell 50 cars a month but now sells 6.

You sound very capable and like (in better times) you could easily get a job at a place with a higher check average and make more money. You say you love your job and there must be reasons why you have stayed there instead of moving to a more expensive place. Maybe it's a convenient location, the owners are friendly and flexible, you have creative input, whatever, we all make choices based on what is important to us. At the end of the day, is it worth it? We all have to take ownership of the choices we make.

pastrygirl · February 12, 2009

The cooks are probably paid around 10 to 15 an hour DOE, and I don't see any reason why servers should expect more than that.
I do. And so do they.
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I think we are all aware that servers believe they should make cash hand over fist and not have to declare it to the IRS. Yes, plates are heavy, people can be jerks, some nights are totally dead and you get cut early. Every job in every industry is going to have its pluses and minuses. Each person needs to consider those in relation to the average pay and decide if it is worth it. Hard work unfortunately does not always pay better.

FOH and BOH are two halves of a whole. Yes they are different skill sets but equally important to the success of the operation. True, a lot of dishwashers don't speak English fluently and a lot of cooks have personality disorders. And a lot of servers can't bake a genoise, make buttercream, filet a fish, brunoise a carrot, etc. A lot of servers know shockingly little about food (I guess if they were into food they'd be in the kitchen instead). True, some jobs just pay better and some skill sets are just worth more in the market. So what happens if bringing people their dinner and explaining what sauvignon blanc tastes like turns out to be not quite as valuable as originally hoped?

If serving actually pays less than everyone seems to think or hope it should, maybe it is time for a few people to suck it up and accept reality, maybe consider a job change when jobs become available again. If you want $40k a year but are only making $25, what do you do? Do you look for another job, or stay in the one you have and cry about how much more you deserve? Doesn't everyone always want more? People at every income think they would be happier if they made more money, but when they make more, the happiness does not increase (maybe temporarily) and they want more again. It would be great if there were no working poor, if no body had to struggle. From what I hear, a lot of Americans are struggling right now, not just servers.

Edited February 12, 2009 by pastrygirl (log)

KatieLoeb · February 12, 2009

Your tax dollars at work:
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos162.htm
Whether or not you agree with the info, particularly as it may specifically relate to you, IMO this reference source is generally excellent. For years it has provided a straight-forward account of most any job an American may be interested in pursuing. I have to agree that if you know ahead of time what your profession pays for the work required it's up to you to stay with it.
Katie, for those of you who don't know, is a master at mixing and creating drinks and is a professional in the truest sense of the word. No doubt her experience and abilities to not only make and serve drinks, but set up a bar/wine service for a restaurant and run it profitably warrant $50K - $70K a year. The problem is, most restaurant owners cannot afford that and most patrons don't understand or appreciate her worth. They're going to give bigger tips to the college cutie who knows a thimble-full of what Katie knows.
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Mano:

Thank you for defending my honor. :wub: You are truly too kind. There are several participants in this thread that have been my customers, so I was hoping that they were at least nodding their heads for me silently. As I said, the college cutie thing is for another thread, but I'm certain you understand my frustration, especially in this town where there seem to be an abundance of places that hire (and simply exist) based on form over function, or style over substance.

On a bad night I make $20 in tips +2.83/hr, for 4 hours work if I go home at 8PM because it's dead. Just barely minimum wage. On a good night I make $150 in tips for about 10 hours work +2.83/hr., so about 17.83/hr. The hourly wage as well as all my credit card tips are taxed. A small portion of cash is also reported, but we are almost exclusively a credit card house.
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Katie, I appreciate your honesty. Understandably in these times you're probably going to have more bad nights than good nights, and that is hard. It is hard to not have a great income, it is hard to want to work but there is no business, hard when you are at the grocery store trying to find the cheapest food you possibly can and your old junker car just broke down again and you really don't have $600 to fix it. I spent entirely too much of my 20's living that way, and it really sucked, but in truth I was also irresponsible with my spending - when you make $9 an hour, you really can't afford to go out to dinner that often, a fact I was in denial about. But still, I understand the frustration of living paycheck to paycheck and having debt.
But I think why people get so fired up over this, is that a lot of servers seem to think they 'deserve' to have a good night every night. They brag about how much they made on a busy Saturday and whine and moan on a slow Tuesday. Every night is not Saturday night, so each person has to decide for his or herself if the average wage ends up being worth it. If people think they should be averaging $20 an hour but in truth they only average $14, they need to examine whether they still want to do that job for that wage, instead of demanding that now everyone has to tip 25% instead of 15. Like someone said above, servers tend to resist the service charges when restaurants try to implement them, choosing instead to take the gamble. If serving was truly a hellacious, underpaid job, there would be unions, organizations, strikes, etc. But it seems to work for a lot of people, at least in good times. Now that we are in bad times, pretty much everyone is struggling or know someone who is, not just servers and restaurants. Talk to someone in Detroit who lost their job after 30 years at GM and whose 401K is shot and doesn't have a whole lot of job options at the age of 50. Talk to a car salesman who works on commission and used to sell 50 cars a month but now sells 6.
You sound very capable and like (in better times) you could easily get a job at a place with a higher check average and make more money. You say you love your job and there must be reasons why you have stayed there instead of moving to a more expensive place. Maybe it's a convenient location, the owners are friendly and flexible, you have creative input, whatever, we all make choices based on what is important to us. At the end of the day, is it worth it? We all have to take ownership of the choices we make.
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pastrygirl, I am more than happy to be honest. And of course every night can't be a Saturday, but I'm feeling more and more like the guy that got laid off at GM than I'd like to. Some of it is the economy and some of it is the frustration I've outlined above. Watching the twinkies in miniskirts make more money than they either deserve or know what to do with just fans the flames of my ire. We read articles about the oldest bartender that just retired, and it's always a man. There are fewer options for an adult woman. Call it ageism, sexism, whatever, but it pisses me off. Especially because I actually do take pride in what I do, and know that I'm damned good at it. And I don't think it's pompous to believe I deserve to make more money than the fry cook at KFC.

There are reasons I stay where I am, as you said, for the creative freedom and my love for my customers and coworkers. But it's getting to a point where something needs to change or I might have to change careers again. I changed careers to BE in the restaurant business seventeen or so years ago. I left a very lucrative career in telecommunications at a huge reduction in pay but a great increase in my level of happiness to be in the restaurant business. I've never regretted that for an instant. And I do know that I'm lucky to have a job and at least a little money in the bank, unlike some others that are less fortunate. But what was supposed to be my 401K got hammered in the economic downturn too. I pay for my own health insurance through a prior employer and that's about to run out soon. Things are very rough, and I'm happy to own my choices, but to get back OT, I bitch when folks don't appreciate how messed up the system is and think the semantics of "voluntary" can explain that away.

Edited February 12, 2009 by KatieLoeb (log)

pastrygirl · February 12, 2009

Katie, don't take this the wrong way, but it is sort of nice to hear the truth about what a server actually makes and that it is not necessarily all that much. What I mean is, I think so much animosity forms between the front & back due to the type of server who brags about pocketing $200 after a six hour shift, while the cooks have been sweating their nuts off since they came in at 2 and still have a couple more hours of cleanup to go, and will make about half that much. There is also sometimes...maybe a sense of entitlement or superiority that can be really off-putting. Everyone who works hard wants to be rewarded with something besides repetetive motion injuries for their efforts, and the suggestion by some that FOH are somehow more deserving than BOH, well we BOH are a sensitive bunch (beneath all of the alcohol, tattoos, and personality disorders) and don't like to be told that our work towards the same goal - successful restaurant, happy customers - is less important, less valuable. Why exactly is it that you (not you) are better than me? Because my talents are different? Let's try separate but equal and see how that feels. I think cooks and servers have both historically not gotten a lot of respect in the US, that is changing somewhat (probably more for chefs) now with celebrity chefs and the current cult of the restaurant. I really applaud Thomas Keller for instituting the service charge at his restaurants and trying to equalize the front and back, but we have a really long way to go and we probably do need to change the system so that we can all get along, customers don't feel railroaded, and nobody feels ripped off at the end of the day.

But until we can get a new system figured out, I'd have to say I'm against both chasing down poor tippers AND skinny little ho's who get way overtipped based on flaunting a perky pair. :raz:

Edited February 12, 2009 by pastrygirl (log)

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