Babbo (First 6 Years)

[cdh]

Some of them patios can be rough-spoken  places. 

Indeed you know some of those Pennsylvania patio patois...

Still have to give credit (or blame) to James Carville for summing up the political map of Pennsylvania-- the eastern sliver is firmly a part of the northeast, the west ern sliver is firmly part of the midwest, and in between you find yourself in Alabama.

Edited August 13, 2003 by cdh (log)

[KNorthrup]

I bet folks wouldn't be arguing with Sam so much if he still had that eye.

[schaem]

Gee, I'm glad I'm not going to visit NYC anytime soon. Sounds like they wouldn't like me atall, cause I'm from away.

Yeah, New York is filled with people who judge people they've never met simply based on where they're from, or what they've heard. Or wait, is that you?

[greenfield]

I think it is fine that you wrote a letter to the owners of Babbo, but it isn't clear to me what you are expecting from the restaurant. It looks like you had three experiences:

* You cancelled a reservation:

I had to call and cancel because my husband got sick, which was equally as challenging as calling for the reservation

* They lost a reservation

* You had a reservation for 6:15 P.M., and your party wasn't complete until 7 P.M; the service was not friendly:

Friends invited us when they got a reservation a few weeks ago.  We were reserved for a 6:15pm dinner for four.  My friend called up and said we would not be able to make it till 6:30pm.  [...] My husband arrived one minute later it was just before 7pm. 

I have not been to Babbo, but I eat out quite a bit in NYC. There have been a couple of restaurants where I have been unhappy with the service in one way or another. In one case, I wrote a letter to the owners, and I never got a response. I realized that I could make my feelings known another way--I didn't go back to the restaurant or any other restaurants owned by the same owners. It's not a hard and fast rule, and I may go back in the future. However, there are too many good restaurants in the city to waste my time where I am not happy and have not had a good meal. It is not worth my time to write to the restaurant owners and it is not worth the spite of undertipping. If I have a poor experience, I still leave a nice tip but I don't go back.

All that being said, I don't totally understand why you were so offended by your service. Even if the person was being incredibly rude in your first incident, you were still the one cancelling the reservation. Some restaurants would charge you a deposit. Should they be rude? No. Should you cancel a reservation? No. In the second incident, the restaurant lost your reservation. There is no good excuse for that. In the third incident, your party was 45 minutes late! This doesn't excuse cold service, but I think you were really in the wrong in this case.

A reservation is not just a whim--it is a promise to another business that you will be there. Just as you expect them to keep your reservations, they expect you to use them. If you had new friends, would you keep them waiting for 45 minutes?

I know I sound a bit harsh, but I don't think you were necessarily polite in your dealings with the restaurant. That being said, I firmly believe that if you feel you had bad service you can let them know. And you shouldn't spend money on places where you don't have a good experience.

[FireIslanddish]

Folks we DID NOT hold up the table for 45 minutes. Perhaps I misled with the excerpts.  My friend had called several days before to negotiate the reservation from 6:15 to 6:30pm.  My husband was exactly 26 minutes late.  He not only left a board meeting early to get there as soon as possible, but also as I said encountered the Cesaria traffic.  My God let's be human and know that people run late. 

If you've been to Babbo you would know there is NO WAY to order for someone else.  Even some else who you know very well.  The menu really is just too diverse.

Also, as I originally said, the tables on either side of us never, NEVER got seated again.  We kept asking when they would need our table so we could graciously leave before that was the case.  They refused to answer the question.  They refused to let us start ordering before my husband got there.  Is that right?

Hopefully, I will go again and be more then pleasantly surprised.  However, I am not going through the reservation process (call a month to the day between 9am and 11am on redial).  Will have to be a guest reserver.

Sorry I misled again about the 45 minutes.

Points:

1. Encounter on phone - rude - twice and condesending!

2. Husband sick & called around 5pm for a 8pm reservation (I'm rude for canceling?) hum....

3. Several days before friend calls to change reservation from 6:15pm to 6:30pm - difficult but they change

4. Host rude when we enter

5. Wine steward - rude and condesending

6. Want to start ordering and not allowed!

7. Ask for some bread and have to ask for some olive oil and or butter

8. Waiter never smiles

9. After asking to start ordering and not allowed 25 minutes go by and we are asked to order for the absent person (again menu is very diverse if you have never been)

10. We ask what time they need the table so we can plan our meal accordingly and to free the table - no response - rude staff

11. Tables on either side of us never get seated again and are empty when we leave

12. Food was good not exceptional

What do I want from this rude and condesending place? Nothing but a recognition that they indeed care about my experience and live up to their "vision" as quoted on their website. We spent a lot of money and felt really unsatisfied. Is that fair or right? I wasn't purposely being rude to them why should I forgive them for their attitude? How about sorry? But it seems to be a trend not to take responsibility for one's mistakes.

Edited August 13, 2003 by FireIslanddish (log)

[SobaAddict70]

Some people would claim that the Midwest begins the moment you set foot in New Jersey.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Soba

[tjaehnigen]

I'm curious if there is anything to how people's experiences rate based on where they sat in Babbo. As I see it, there are three main locations--

Bar/Cruddy tables at/near abr

Downstairs tables prior to the staircase leading upstairs

upstairs

I have only been there once (hey I am an uptight diner from DC that tips like crud, right? ), but it was upstairs and I had one of the top three, heck, top two meals of my life there.

How about the rest of you?

[bilrus]

My one time there was in the back right corner banquette on the first floor, near the door to the kitchen.

I personally liked the spot, as it gave us a good viw of the lower level and was pretty comfortable. As I mentioned in my original post (oh so many posts ago) my wife and I were originally slated to be seated side by side in a banquette. We don't really like this arrangement, mainly because we like looking at each other when talking, but also because we are both larger than average and are more comfortable across from each other.

I would have liked to see the upstairs and am curious too as to others opinions if this seating was some sort of slight or if it we did have a good spot.

[macrosan]

I've only ever eaten at the bar. It's one of the most comforatble eating bars I've been to.

The food is the same wherever you sit.

I agree that the three (?) tables at the front of the restaurant, at the end of the bar, are pretty bad. They're probably OK to sit at, but you can see the staff grimacing as they try to negotiate the customers standing in the bar area with plates of food, and I betcha the staff hate serving those tables. Same problem if a diner wants to go to the rest room.

Interestingly, the VIP table is the one at the other end of the bar behind the screen, so I guess that Babbo rates that as the best located table.

I've seen upstairs, and I have to say that would be my choice of tables.

Edited August 13, 2003 by macrosan (log)

[Aurora]

...The next time he does it, however, send him over to that Heartland board.  Those people are like a hungry pack of wolves over there!

Here, here, Tommy. Here, here.

But the combines that we drive are far more efficient than wolves.

[Felonius]

I'm curious if there is anything to how people's experiences rate based on where they sat in Babbo.

I've sat in all three locations, and the upstairs is the most comfortable for a serious dinner due to a lower noise level. I actually don't mind the tables up front by the window if I'm on a casual date. I kind of like the less formal and lively feel of that area. The service can suffer there though, because it's harder for the waitstaff to see you from their stations. The tables up front are not usually used for those with reservations, they are for walk-ins or I suppose overflow from the main dining room if tables aren't turned on time.

In the past year nearly all my meals have been taken at the bar. I began to do this because I often dine alone in the city (the plight of the bachelor!) and I also just had it with trying to go through the Babbo reservations fiasco. If you show up on weeknights at the right times (i.e. right when they open or at around 6:45 - 7:00 when the bar tables are turning over for the first time), it's usually not hard to get seated within a few minutes at those front tables or to snag a spot at the bar. This way one can avoid the usual process of sitting on hold for hours, only to have someone tell you they'd be glad to seat you upstairs on a Tuesday night three weeks hence at 11pm.

[coolranch]

I started reading this thread because I was planning on eating at Babbo during my next trip to the City.

not so sure anymore.

If we do, I'll be sure to report back on how a Texan and my (midwestern??) husband (from Pittsburgh) fare.

It will be on a weeknight, so we may just sneak in at the bar and bypass the whole reservation song and dance alltogether.

Or maybe just postpone it until I return again in November and see how if the service gets better.

[tommy]

getting back to the original topic, i really don't think it's a restaurant's concern if someone is late because they're at a board meeting or sick. that's just the way it is. these places are very busy. if you can't hack it, stand in line somewhere else. i can assure everyone that i've *rushed* to babbo on several occasions because i've been late and understood, as most people do, that they'd release the table if the party wasn't there within 15 minutes.

the issue of the restaurant not responding to a letter is completely separate. although, i didn't read the contents of that particular letter, so i can't really judge.

[Felonius]

I started reading this thread because I was planning on eating at Babbo during my next trip to the City.

  not so sure anymore. 

Coolranch, I wouldn't let this thread dissuade you from trying Babbo. Despite my criticism and that of others about the service, I would definitely recommend you give it a shot. The food is outstanding and very creative. "Molto Mario" ain't famous for nuthin'! The biggest hassles at Babbo are trying to get a reservation and getting past the obnoxious maitre'd. I have eaten there many times and have found the service to be OK, if not always the most friendly or gracious.

I would take these posts with a grain of salt. Many of the folks on this board are food-crazy New Yorkers, who are spoiled by eating at some of the best restaurants in the country on a regular basis (me included ). My expectations for both food and service are extremely high when discussing NYC restaurants. I stopped regularly patronizing Babbo, not because the food wasn't up to par (it's some of the best of it's type I've had in the USA), or because the service is terrible (it isn't terrible, only less than what it should be), but because I have several other options down the street in NYC that serve equally good food and have better service. Even so, I will visit Babbo from time to time, because I think they do certain things (i.e. super rich, flavorful, and innovative pasta dishes) better than anyone in NYC. If you're intrigued by Mario's cuisine, by all means go see and taste for yourself!

[tommy]

i agree with felonius.

for a discussion more focused on babbo and its virtues, click here.

edit: sorry, this thread seems to be about water.

edit edit: upon review, i declare that "one fucked up thread". glad it's over. carry on.

Edited August 14, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Fat Guy]

I've been visiting Babbo at least a couple of times a year since it opened (that would be '97 or '98 I think), and have probably been 12+ times in all. I've seen it at its worst and at its best, both in terms of food and service -- though the food has been top notch almost every time whereas the service has varied wildly. Overall, I've seen most permutations of table-location, service, and food-quality and there's very little rhyme or reason to it. It's one of the more difficult restaurants to game if you're not recognized as a regular or someone important. There are times when no amount of enthusiasm or good behavior will save you from being treated like dirt. That was especially a problem early on, then things improved, and now they seem to be pretty steady but with lapses on occasion.

It's important to remember that Babbo is not really a "fine dining" restaurant. It isn't priced that way: most entrees are in the mid- to upper-twenties whereas a typical restaurant in the top category would be priced at low- to mid-thirties for most entrees. Babbo also offers an excellent value wine list, and it's not even necessary to order at the entree price point because you can get one of the pastas (mostly under $20) as your entree. Because Babbo isn't in the fine-dining category, the expectations of both quality and quantity of service have to be adjusted. It's simply not reasonable to compare Babbo to Le Bernardin, Jean Georges, and other places where the check average is probably close to double (the entry-level prix fixe dinner at Daniel is $85 and tasting menus are something like $120, whereas it's difficult for one person to spend $60 on food at Babbo with any permutation of three courses and the tasting menus are only $65 -- and that's not getting into the relative difference in wine value). But people do compare Babbo to those restaurants because, like them, it is a best-of-its-kind experience -- and they certainly have to fight harder for reservations there than at Daniel or any of the four-star places. Yet dining at Babbo costs about the same as dining at any of five totally mediocre neighborhood restaurants within two blocks of my apartment on East 93rd Street.

Now, there's no excuse for rude or abusive service, and I'll be the first to say that Babbo has a less than impressive long-term track-record in this regard. But the restaurant should be viewed in the context of its price point and what it's trying to do. If you go there expecting a four-star experience, you will never be satisfied, because it is not, never will be, and doesn't want to be a four-star restaurant. If you go there expecting excellent value and really good food in a relatively casual, noisy setting with service that meets or exceeds the norms in the price range, you should be okay most of the time.

[phaelon56]

I can only say that good food, good service, good manners and common courtesy should not be (and last time I checked were not) contingent on the geographic location or origin of either the restaurant or the diner.

Am I missing something here? I'm not upper-crust or elitist nor am I a gourmand, a foodie or part of any in-crowd. I treat people in the way that I was taught to by my parents and am able to add in an extra bit of patience and tolerance that comes from having worked in customer service related professions for many years.

On the rare occasions that I encounter bad service I'm not afraid to identify and certainly wouldn't hesitate to post my experience here.

My fine dining experiences are far and few between but when we arrived ten minutes early at Danube for our reservation and the table wasn't ready, they found us a comfortable seat in the bar and brought us a complimentary cocktail immediately. When I had to cancel a dinner reservation at Blue Hill, the person on the phone thanked me profusely for having the courtesy and forethought o cancel and advised that she hoped we'd be able to dine there on some other occasion. Nothing too complicated about any of that is there?

If a restaurant's service suffers because they are so popular that they're constantly booked and turning away so many customers..... we should all wish for such painful success. If the staff at a popular TV chef's restaurant doesn't like the shift in clientele that occurs when lots of tourists and other out of town folks begin dining there.... they're free to look for jobs elsewhere. Are they complaining about working in a popular restaurant with lots of turns, high prices and presumably fairly good tip income? I think not.

If I receive unfriendly or less than competent service from one person on a restaurant staff I chalk it up to that person having a bad day or some other isolated issue. If I receieve such treatment from multiple individuals at various stages in the reservation, arrival and dining experience, I presume there to be a problem of greater depth and scope and vote with my wallet by dining elsewhere in the future.

Edited August 14, 2003 by phaelon56 (log)

[Felonius]

Now, there's no excuse for rude or abusive service, and I'll be the first to say that Babbo has a less than impressive long-term track-record in this regard. But the restaurant should be viewed in the context of its price point and what it's trying to do. If you go there expecting a four-star experience, you will never be satisfied, because it is not, never will be, and doesn't want to be a four-star restaurant. If you go there expecting excellent value and really good food in a relatively casual, noisy setting with service that meets or exceeds the norms in the price range, you should be okay most of the time.

As usual, Fat Guy has hit the nail on the head. Thanks for bringing some logic to this thread . Now that I think of it, I probably have set my expectations too high in general for Babbo over the years. The exceptional food has always led me to include it in my NYC "Top Ten", but it is fundamentally different from most of the others in terms of price point and atmosphere.

Although this doesn't excuse rude behavior on the part of some of the staff, it does explain some of the other service shortcomings (i.e. more pressure to turn tables than at places like Daniel or Jean-Georges).

[Fat Guy]

On the rare occasions that I encounter bad service I'm not afraid to identify and certainly wouldn't hesitate to post my experience here.

I absolutely agree, but would emphasize that the standards for service vary by price point, region, and other factors.

Region: In London it is not necessarily uncommon to be told, when you make a reservation, even at a top restaurant, "You'll have 2 hours, we need the table back by 9pm." Most Americans would consider this extremely rude, whereas over there it just makes sense to them (and indeed probably does make sense objectively).

Price Point: If you're coming up on your 50th wedding anniversary and you want to have a great experience, you're an idiot if you go to Waffle House. Yes, you have a right to expect good service at Waffle House. But what is the definition of good service at Waffle House? It probably includes leaving your fork behind to eat the next course, etc. Different restaurants are offering different concepts of good service. I do think there is a point at which we can just all agree that rude is rude. But there are other instances where something that would be totally acceptable in Waffle House would be considered extremely poor form at Daniel.

[rich]

Region: In London it is not necessarily uncommon to be told, when you make a reservation, even at a top restaurant, "You'll have 2 hours, we need the table back by 9pm." Most Americans would consider this extremely rude, whereas over there it just makes sense to them (and indeed probably does make sense objectively).

I've long been an advocate of "renting" a table at a restaurant. I'm surprised U.S. restaurants don't use this system.

In certain cases they do, when first and second seating terms are used. But I would have no problem with a restaurant telling me I have the table for two hours, 2 1/2 hours or three hours. If you need more time because of a special occasion, then it could be negotiated.

I believe this would go a long way in solving the problem of waiting for a table when you have a reservation. Now if we could only educate the American dining public on "turnover" and the necessity for it.

[hollywood]

Region: In London it is not necessarily uncommon to be told, when you make a reservation, even at a top restaurant, "You'll have 2 hours, we need the table back by 9pm." Most Americans would consider this extremely rude, whereas over there it just makes sense to them (and indeed probably does make sense objectively).

We get this all the time in LA--at least on weekends.

[pogophiles]

But there are other instances where something that would be totally acceptable in Waffle House would be considered extremely poor form at Daniel.

And vice-versa. For instance, one should never request the non-smoking section at Waffle House...

[SobaAddict70]

So, a question: would Mario ever consider retooling the pasta tasting menu? It's my perception that the elements have remained the same for the most part, for quite some time. (Not that there's anything wrong with it remaining the way it is.)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Soba

[Fat Guy]

Region: In London it is not necessarily uncommon to be told, when you make a reservation, even at a top restaurant, "You'll have 2 hours, we need the table back by 9pm." Most Americans would consider this extremely rude, whereas over there it just makes sense to them (and indeed probably does make sense objectively).

I've long been an advocate of "renting" a table at a restaurant. I'm surprised U.S. restaurants don't use this system.

We could certainly have a thread about that, if you'd like to start one.

[bilrus]

What would you retool Soba?

From the sounds of it the menu in the summer is different than in the winter aside from a few common ones - the Pyramids and the Bolognese.

We did have two different courses with a similar sauce (brown butter sauces), but I'm not sure what you can do aside from tweaking the various forms of pastas (wide noodles, thin noodles, raviolis, etc) and sauces.