Babbo (First 6 Years)

[macrosan]

Having properly arranged to have this thread moved to the New York forum, I can't understand why people aren't responding to the original post about Babbo Everyone seems to want to trade "service stories"

FireIsland, there seems to be growing evidence of a steady decline in the quality of service at Babbo. This happens to be one of my favorite restaurants in New York (I'm from the UK, so I don't go often) but even I noticed the poor service at the bar last time I went.

I discovered Babbo through eGullet eighteen months ago, and I remember that the reports then were without exception enthusiastic about both the food and the service. Reviews this year have probably been 70/30 complimentary/critical of the food and 50/50 complimentary/critical about the service. That must surely mean that the restaurant has indeed declined. Previous discussions here have suggested that they're trying to get too much throughput, and that the owners have been significantly distracted by their new venture Otto which clearly has encountered problems.

Whatever the reasons, I find it sad that Babbo has degraded itself. Your experiences were unacceptable for a business that positions itself in the market as Babbo does, and your experiences are in no way mitigated by the fact that sometimes Babbo gets it right.

[FireIslanddish]

Macrosan,

Thank you for a relevent post

I'm a real foodie and have been trying to go to Babbo for sometime. Because of different circumstances I was unable to get there till last month. After seeing "Molto Mario" many times I thought that the experience of Babbo would have been like going to a great yet warm and friendly favorite place in Italy (which I've been too several times north, south east and west) because he seems like he has great humour, wit and warmth. That is why I wrote the letter.

If it was my reputation as a chef and owner I would want to know the postive and negative experiences. Many people have since told me he probably is too egocentric to care what I thought. And I have heard back from several friends that they have the same experience.

It's a real shame! Molto, what is going on?

Cheers,

FireIslanddish

[FireIslanddish]

We opened Babbo in the summer of 1998 in an effort to emulate the best of the great Italian tradition of hospitality and quality at the table and in the glass. The philosophy as easy as it is straight forward - use the best local ingredients as simply as possible and serve them with flourish and joy.

Edited August 12, 2003 by FireIslanddish (log)

[tommy]

my biggest issue with babbo has always been the host, as i've stated several times on egullet. the servers are always very nice. my most recent visit was probably 4 months ago, and everything seemed "normal" to me. i hope it doesn't take a turn for the worst.

[bilrus]

I can see that about the host. While we were waiting at the bar, and eavsdropping on his conversations, he seemed more interested in what "names" were there - the aforementioned David Blaine, Kim Cattral's agent, etc. He was also the only one who expressed hesitation about our table move.

[slkinsey]

Hmmm... Very odd. All I can say is that I've gone to Babbo many times, and it has never been less than a wonderfully pleasant experience. That said, I'm the dream customer for this kind of restaurant in many ways... I don't make unusual depands, I show up on time for my reservation, I don't hesitate to try new things, I always engage the waitstaff and wine people and enlist their help in making interesting selections, etc. One of the earlest times I went there, Mario came out and hung out with us for around 45 minutes.

The big difference I have noticed at Babbo, and maybe it is starting to affect the service there, is in the clientele. For the first year or two it was mostly NYC people -- with a heavy concentration of Manhattanites -- and the occasional foodie from out of town. It was easy to spot the B&T crowd, never mind the tourists from Peoria. Now it is quite common to see the place mostly filled with groups from the Midwest in their shorts, yellow polo shirts and shoes with no socks -- and Myron and Betsy Goldbaum up from their retirement community in Boca are arguing with the front of the house people because they can't walk in with no reservation and get a table at 8:30 on Friday night. I have little doubt that this trend is a direct result of TVFN's success and Mario's concomitant popularity. I know this may sound horribly City-centric and elitist, but by and large these people just don't behave the same way -- the appropriate way, IMO -- as we do in a place like Babbo. If I had reservations at Babbo and one of my party had not arrived 45 minutes after we had been seated, you had better believe I would already have ordered and started without them.

Most restaurants of which I am aware that have gone over to a mostly-tourist out-of-towner clientele have had reported problems with the service. Whether or not this is an issue of the staff getting worse, or of the staff changing attitudes as a result of the behavior of the clientele or of the out of towner clientele having different expectations and different modes of behavior remains a question.

Obviously not everyone is going to be happy 100% of the time. But all the people I know from Metropolitan New York who have gone there have had a thoroughly positive experience overall.

[mikeycook]

I took my wife and her family there for her 30th birthday last year (September) and the staff couldn't have been better. We had my 3 year old niece with us and they were incredibly hospitable. After having had some downright rude and snobby experiences at certain midtown restaurants (particularly La Cote Basque) we were surprised at how friendly and accommodating the staff at Babbo was, particularly with a very young child.

That being said, things change, and I would be very disappointed if things have changed that dramatically. Babbo is just a few blocks from our apartment and would hate to think that "midtown attitude" has moved further south (we mostly have seen this type of behavior in the larger midtown restaurants and less in Gramercy Park, the Village, and Tribeca).

[tommy]

One of the earlest times I went there, Mario came out and hung out with us for around 45 minutes.

sounds like you probably had some connection. i find it hard to believe that mario would "hang out" with a customer for 45 minutes unless he knew that person, or knew someone who knew that person. and, if it was only because you're a regular, then it raises the question of whether regulars get good treatment, and others get spotty treatment.

[rich]

I know this may sound horribly City-centric and elitist, but by and large these people just don't behave the same way -- the appropriate way, IMO -- as we do in a place like Babbo.

This is the same type of thinking as the comment in the "Rocco" thread about gays.

Do you think "these people" pay the same amount for the food and service as "we do"?

Do you think "these people" could be contagious and spread their disease to others in the "we do" class?

Gee, I hope not. What a terrible epidemic would follow.

I sure hope "these people" stay out of Babbo and other "we do" places around the city.

[slkinsey]

One of the earlest times I went there, Mario came out and hung out with us for around 45 minutes.

sounds like you probably had some connection. i find it hard to believe that mario would "hang out" with a customer for 45 minutes unless he knew that person, or knew someone who knew that person. and, if it was only because you're a regular, then it raises the question of whether regulars get good treatment, and others get spotty treatment.

Actually... this is a pretty cool story. It was a birthday dinner arranged for me by my girlfriend (bergerka). She knew I admired Mario's cooking and philosophies of approaching food and so, when she called the restaurant to make our reservation, she mentioned that it would be really cool if I could say hello to Mario. They said they'd check and that she should call back a few days later, etc. Anyway, eventually she ends up talking to Mario himself, who thinks it's cool that we're all opera singers, etc. So he came out and hung out with us towards the end of dinner (it was a late reservation, so the rush on the kitchen was largely over by this time). None of us had met him face-to-face before that moment and he has never given us special treatment since.

That saud, we have always managed to strike up a good relationship with the wine guy at Babbo, and have been comped a bottle of "something interesting" several times (they also always appreciate our interest in unusual wines, our desire to let them do their job in recommending wines for us and our willingness to allow them to steer us towards something out of the ordinary -- usually costing less than the more traditional offerings).

For the record: we don't go to Babbo often enough to be recognized by the staff there.

[FireIslanddish]

My husband and I always “engage” the sommelier and wait staff for their recommendations (including at Babbo). The only thing we did wrong as a non-perfect customer was have ONE of our party show up late. Remember they make it difficult even to cancel a reservation never mind confirm one. Mind you this was also the night of the morning down 5th Ave for Cesaria Evora. The host even asked us if there was a lot of traffic because many reservations were running late that night.

I also agree that everyone has the right to eat out without being judged. The same thinking of them or us (Manhattanites) is why we as non-celebs can get the shaft at the hot restaurants .

[tommy]

that's the way to do it Sam!

[MatthewB]

Now it is quite common to see the place mostly filled with groups from the Midwest in their shorts, yellow polo shirts and shoes with no socks . . .  I know this may sound horribly City-centric and elitist, but by and large these people just don't behave the same way -- the appropriate way, IMO -- as we do in a place like Babbo.

*May* sound horribly City-centric & elitist? You're being much too kind with yourself here.

But what do us Midwest hicks know anyway?

[bushey]

I know this may sound horribly City-centric and elitist, but by and large these people just don't behave the same way -- the appropriate way, IMO -- as we do in a place like Babbo.

re: glass houses

We outsiders sometimes refer to you city-folk as "212-ers". And we get that sinking feeling when approaching some of the restaurants we love in vacation spots (Cape Cod, for example) where there's an abundance of New York license plates in the parking lot -- they just don't know how to behave when they go out .

[slkinsey]

I know this may sound horribly City-centric and elitist, but by and large these people just don't behave the same way -- the appropriate way, IMO -- as we do in a place like Babbo.

This is the same type of thinking as the comment in the "Rocco" thread about gays.

Do you think "these people" pay the same amount for the food and service as "we do"?

[etc.]

This is a bullshit comment. The fact of the matter is that people from different areas of the country (and world) have different modes of bahavior and different expectations. This is the same reason one often finds Americans having trouble fitting in well in Europe. This is the same reason one often finds Americans from the South complaining that they can't get a bottomless class of iced tea with every meal in NYC. This is the same reason one often finds Americans from NYC complaining that they can't get a decent bagel in Alabama This is the same reason why it is common practice to chat with the checkout person in the supermarket for a few minutes in North Carolina, but pisses everyone off when you do it in NYC. There are different cultural norms. You don't think something similar would happen (and does happen) at high-end restaurants in France?

In a situation where the restaurant has XYZ cultural expectations and customers come in operating under ABC, there are bound to be conflicts. The only kind of restaurant for which this is typically not the case -- and should not be the case -- are restaurants which specifically cater to tourists. Babbo, in my opinion, does not consider itself to be a tourist restaurant, nor does it seek to be one. All of Mario's places are decidedly New York City restaurants.

I wonder how many of the people who complain about Babbo are from the City as opposed to out of towners. I am willing to bet that most of them are from out of town, and that many of their complaints are for perceived slights that most City dwellers would hardly notice. I, personally, would be embarrassed if we were holding a table 45 minutes late because one of our party had not arrived and would think very little of it if the waitperson were to ask us to order after 15-20 minutes of waiting. Babbo is one of the most popular high-end restaurants in a city of eight million plus. There are other people waiting for that table, and it is not reasonable to hold it for 45 minutes because someone is late.

On preview: Reflecting Matthew's comment, I should modify my earlier remark to say that there are modes of behavior, etc. that are appropriate to other parts of the country that are not appropriate to an NYC restaurant

(and vice-versa, of course).

[slkinsey]

I know this may sound horribly City-centric and elitist, but by and large these people just don't behave the same way -- the appropriate way, IMO -- as we do in a place like Babbo.

re: glass houses

We outsiders sometimes refer to you city-folk as "212-ers". And we get that sinking feeling when approaching some of the restaurants we love in vacation spots (Cape Cod, for example) where there's an abundance of New York license plates in the parking lot -- they just don't know how to behave when they go out .

I totally agree. Many NYC people can be equally inflexible in their expectations and behavior when out of their home turf.

[guajolote]

I wonder how many of the people who complain about Babbo are from the City as opposed to out of towners.  I am willing to bet that most of them are from out of town, and that many of their complaints are for perceived slights that most City dwellers would hardly notice.

If you go through this thread, you will find that it's about 3/4 positive, 1/4 negative for people who live in Manhattan and people who live outside it.

[MatthewB]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

[vivin]

I have been to Babbo literally dozens of times and there has been only once when the service was less than exemplary.

Out of these, once we were a party of 6 and two people showed up about 40 minutes late. They did not seat us for 30 min (as is their policy) so we had to hang out near the bar. Eventually, the host did seat us and we ordered wine and our friends showed up 10 min later. At no point in the entire evening did I feel that they had been less than gracious for something that was, indeed, our fault. In a business as affected by the business cycle as this one, how can you not expect any loss of service when you hold up their table for 45 minutes on a Fri/Sat.

Babbo meals tend to get better the more interaction I have with their staff. It is definitely that kind of place. I have seen out of town tourists from the midwest having a fabulous time at Babbo because they interacted well with the staff, took their suggestions and made the effort to get to know how best to get have a good meal there. I have also seen people making requests that might seem reasonable to them but not getting anywhere at the Mario restaurants.

[mikeycook]

I have had the pleasure to eat in upscale restaurants all over the country (urban, suburban, and rural) and have found that people are people. I have been treated poorly in NYC restaurants (speaking as a NYC resident), but I have also been treated poorly in D.C., San Francisco, Maine, and Florida, to name but a few places (I was born in Maine and raised in New Hampshire). I have also been treated like gold in all these places. IMHO, selfish, self-centered customers act the same wherever they go. So do arrogant, self-centered restaurant personnel.

[Felonius]

Obviously not everyone is going to be happy 100% of the time.  But all the people I know from Metropolitan New York who have gone there have had a thoroughly positive experience overall.

Well I am a Manhattanite who eats out 7 nights a week, knows how to behave, and can say that I have to agree with most of what Fireislandish has said about Babbo. My only disagreement would be holding up the order for 45 minutes at a place like Babbo. I might do this at a truly high-end place like Daniel if absolutely necessary, but let's face it, Babbo is a somewhat reasonably priced (by NYC standards given the quality of food and low markup of the wine list) "hot" restaurant that probably relies on turning over tables to be profitable. That being said, this DOES NOT excuse the following:

A generally rude and obnoxious host (OK I really think he is a total tool)

Lack of a friendly attitude when calling for reservations, after having to wait hours on hold to get through

Noticeable harassment by the host/hostess if you dare to show up 5 minutes early or late for a reservation

A bit too much of a "we know how it's done and let me tell you" attitude by some of the waitstaff and bartenders

I have dined at Babbo many times in the past 3 years, and love the food and wine list. I think it's by far the best bang for the buck I've had in NYC for great creative cuisine. I actually dined there often enough that the jerky host guy recognized met and did start to treat me a little better (i.e. he didn't glare at me with quite the same disdain). However, I finally grew tired of the hassles and took Babbo off of my short list of dinner spots. Life in NYC is stressful enough without having to encounter more pressure and stress when dining at a fine restaurant. I will probably go back and dine solo at the Babbo bar at off-hours, so I can get my pasta fix every once in a while, but that's about it. I have quit going to Bouley for many of the same reasons (although I'll admit that Bouley's service is easily ten times worse than Babbo).

On a brighter note, I have had excellent and friendly service from some of the waitstaff at Babbo, and think their wine service is some of the best in the city - friendly, knowledgeable, willing to take time to help you explore new wines, and the lowest markup from retail in the city. Also, I have never had a remotely disappointing meal there in terms of food quality, which is more than I can say for many of their competitors.

I think it's unfortunate that a place with so much to offer can't figure out how to take the pushy edge off and provide that gracious atmosphere Mario claims to be shooting for. Then again, they're booked solid every night so maybe Mario couldn't care less.

[sammy]

I agree completely. My father-in-law is a bear to eat with whether we are in New York, Florida or California.

[cakewalk]

Just curious. Let's say these midwesterners go to a high-end NYC restaurant and behave like (gasp) midwesterners. Okay, so they don't know how to dress properly, it's true. But is it therefore permissable, acceptable, correct, understandable or whatever-able for the professional waitstaff at said restaurant to treat them rudely? And, from what I gather in this thread, is it okay that their treatment of other customers (high-end NYC customers even) then become rude in turn? Somehow these poor unsuspecting midwesterners are being blamed for what seems to be a general decline in customer service. IOW - are we playing blame the victim here? That's what it sounds like.

[macrosan]

Obviously not everyone is going to be happy 100% of the time.  But all the people I know from Metropolitan New York who have gone there have had a thoroughly positive experience overall.

Now don't get me wrong, Sam, I'll repeat that Babbo is one of my favorite restaurants in New York (although indeed it was once the favorite) and it makes me sad to say that I think this must be plain wrong.

If you read the very many posts about Babbo here at eGullet, I'm sure you'll perceive what I described earlier --- a distinct falling off of approval. And the main complaint has related to service.

I think I've eaten at Babbo five times in the last two years, every time at the bar. Then only "service" contact I have are the bartenders and the busboys. On my last visit (back in May) I reported a clearly worse experience of service from the bartenders. I would call it totally uninterested and lax service. The previous four times, I found the bartender service to be exceptionally good.

Incidentally, I agree with your comments about a 45-minute lateness of arrival, but it sounds as though it just wasn't handled well by the waitstaff.

I disagree with your fanciful idea that somehow a restaurant in New York deliberately or inadvertently caters for a New York crowd or an out-of-town crowd. That might be true in Muncie, Indiana (although I doubt it even there) but it is ludicrous to apply such a concept to New York. Restaurants are in the hospitality business, and they should provide service in relation to what they charge. Period.

Edited August 12, 2003 by macrosan (log)

[slkinsey]

Sam,

Might you please spell out the ethnocentric social conventions for a NYC restaurant?

I'm curious as we may be visiting NYC soon & I'd prefer not to offend anyone whilst dining out.

I don't think it's ethnocentrism. It's just cultural differences. Get a feel for the place and try to fit in. Understand that things won't be the way they are for you at wherever you are from. It's no different, really, than the adjustments a New Yorker would have to make coming to your town.

It's hard to put my finger on it. I was raised in a big East coast city by parents from the rural South (father) and all over the world (mother). I spend a lot of time far away from home growing up and have always traveled a lot, both within America and internationally. So, for whatever reason, I have always had a very easy time automatically fitting in to whatever the social norms are wherever I am -- to the extent that I often engage in what linguists call "code switching" and change my accent and mode of speech depending on where I am and who I am talking to without thinking about it.

To me, it's all about understanding where people are coming from. Like, for example, some people have a difficult time understanding why Italians would never have a cappucino after dinner. It is because they consider cappucino a breakfast drink, and having one after dinner would be like following a fine meal with a glass of orange juice. So, when in Rome... well, I think we know how the rest of that one goes. Anyway, that's enough OT wandering for me today.