Ice cream makers/machines

[Margaret Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

 

I use a freezer bowl at home,...

Where else do you make ice cream and what do you use?

[paulraphael]

32 minutes ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

Where else do you make ice cream and what do you use?

 

I use the Kitchenaid attachment. It gets mixed reviews but I think it's great. As with other freezer bowls, how well it works depends on how cold you can get your freezer. The sweet spot seems to be around -6 to -8F. If you chill the bowl 15 hours at those temps and have a well-designed recipe, you can freeze the ice cream in 7–8 minutes. I also like that the mixer has variable speeds, so if you want a little bit more overrun, you can just turn it up a notch or two for the last minute. 

 

I've made ice cream at ice cream shops and in pastry kitchens, using things from giant White Mountain rock salt and ice machines (cool looking but awful) to high-end Carpigiani machines (awesome). I've used liquid nitrogen and dry ice in the mixer. I've used those big plastic balls that you fill with salt and ice and give to kids to kick around the yard. I've never used a Paco Jet.

[teonzo]

4 hours ago, weinoo said:

You know, thinking about this (ingredients in ice cream) a little more, wouldn't the holy grail actually be creating a perfect vanilla ice cream (let's set aside how long it's going to sit in your freezer for - this isn't an Albert Brooks' movie) using only the "traditional" ingredients; i.e. milk, cream, sugar, vanilla bean?

 

When you deal with fiordilatte (or "white bases" in general) much depends on how you cook the milk and cream.
If you can source raw milk and raw cream (or only raw milk and then separate the cream) and are willing to take a risk, then you can mix milk+cream+sugar at refrigerator temperatures (use an immersion blender to help the sugar to dissolve), then churn it. You'll get the best tasting fiordilatte you'll ever experienced, not because of texture, freezing point depression or else, but simply because you started with the best tasting ingredients.
If you don't want to take a risk then you can start from pasteurized milk and cream, then proceed as above. Without heating milk and cream you avoid ruining their taste (industrial pasteurization is a light and quick process).
If you cook your base to include stabilizers or whatever reason, then you are going to kill its taste. For many reasons professionals prefer to cook the base (sanitary reasons are the main concern), but at home you are free to do whatever you want without following HACCP protocols.

 

 

Teo

 

[paulraphael]

1 hour ago, teonzo said:

 

When you deal with fiordilatte (or "white bases" in general) much depends on how you cook the milk and cream.
If you can source raw milk and raw cream (or only raw milk and then separate the cream) and are willing to take a risk, then you can mix milk+cream+sugar at refrigerator temperatures (use an immersion blender to help the sugar to dissolve), then churn it. You'll get the best tasting fiordilatte you'll ever experienced, not because of texture, freezing point depression or else, but simply because you started with the best tasting ingredients.
If you don't want to take a risk then you can start from pasteurized milk and cream, then proceed as above. Without heating milk and cream you avoid ruining their taste (industrial pasteurization is a light and quick process).
If you cook your base to include stabilizers or whatever reason, then you are going to kill its taste. For many reasons professionals prefer to cook the base (sanitary reasons are the main concern), but at home you are free to do whatever you want without following HACCP protocols.

 

 

Teo

 

 

I've never had ice cream made with raw milk, but have hesitations about the whole idea, separate from the safety-related ones. 

 

Uncooked milk proteins behave very differently in an ice cream than cooked ones. When the proteins are denatured by  the right degree of cooking, they take on new properties that are helpful in terms of texture and emulsification. 

 

One flavor test that I've done is between milk and cream from a small dairy (pasture-fed cows, low-temperature pasteurized—delicious milk and cream) vs. dairy from the supermarket (the usual ultra-pasteurized industrial farm stuff ... bland, slightly cooked tasting). We made unflavored ice cream with low sugar levels (around 11%) and then did a blind triangle test. No one could tell the difference between the artisanal dairy and the industrial stuff.

 

Meanwhile, anyone could tell the difference by tasting the milk and cream straight. The reasons are that the sugar overpowers the subtle dairy flavors, and that our sense of taste is just less sensitive to cold things (although in this case, we couldn't even taste the difference when tasting the melted ice cream). 

 

They did a similar experiment at Serious Eats and came to the same conclusion.

 

I still make all my ice cream with milk and cream from the small dairy. Partly because I want to support the farms, partly because I want low-temperature pasteurization (it allows more control in the cooking process) and partly because I want cream without added stabilizers (unknowable variables). But I'm now quite skeptical of claims that dairy ingredient quality is a factor in ice cream flavor—assuming everything's fresh, and you're not using dry milk powder that's impure or has been allowed to absorb odors. 

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I bought a KitchenAid ice cream maker about twenty years ago.  As I recall I paid around $1000.  It did not make good ice cream, it was a pain to clean, plus it leaked.  It is in the running for my worst small appliance purchase ever.  My Simac ice cream maker is a pain to clean but at least it makes great ice cream.

 

[ccp900]

9 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I've had three compressor ice cream makers.  I recommend the Cuisinart ICE-100.  I spin my ice cream in the ICE-100 for 15-20 minutes.

 

Jo. How much mix do you put in the ice100 to do 15-20 min churns? 

[ccp900]

11 hours ago, horseflesh said:

Since this thread has come back to life...

 

Does anyone have new input on ice cream machines? Are any of the less-expensive refrigerated units worth having? 

 

I currently have one of the pre-frozen cylinder style. Reviews usually say that they make ice cream which is often better than that from refrigerated units, as the pre-frozen cylinder may still freeze faster than a cheap freezer does. This makes them a great value... but so inconvenient. 

 

If someone has a refrigerated unit they love (not a full commercial model) I would like to hear about it. Obviously what I need in my life is the ability to make several batches of ice cream in a day. 

 

There is the whynter icm201sb that looks like a winner. I haven’t tried it but a review I saw that ran it side by side with the ice100 had it winning in speed of churn and lower iciness. It might have a bigger motor that’s probably why since it is 2.1 qts.  It is a vertical design so it uses a smaller footprint which always helps in the kitchen. Kitchen space is always a problem

[JoNorvelleWalker]

12 minutes ago, ccp900 said:

Jo. How much mix do you put in the ice100 to do 15-20 min churns? 

 

Usually enough that the freezing mix does not push against the lid.  Most recently I made Rose Levy Beranbaum's chocolate which was a more generous recipe than I'm used to that spun in 20 minutes.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

16 minutes ago, ccp900 said:

There is the whynter icm201sb that looks like a winner. I haven’t tried it but a review I saw that ran it side by side with the ice100 had it winning in speed of churn and lower iciness. It might have a bigger motor that’s probably why since it is 2.1 qts.  It is a vertical design so it uses a smaller footprint which always helps in the kitchen. Kitchen space is always a problem

 

I was not aware of the ICM201sb.  Try it and report back.

 

[paulraphael]

10 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I've had three compressor ice cream makers.  I recommend the Cuisinart ICE-100.  I spin my ice cream in the ICE-100 for 15-20 minutes.

 

 

That's impressive. Much faster than I've seen reported elsewhere.

[paulraphael]

28 minutes ago, ccp900 said:

There is the whynter icm201sb that looks like a winner. I haven’t tried it but a review I saw that ran it side by side with the ice100 had it winning in speed of churn and lower iciness. It might have a bigger motor that’s probably why since it is 2.1 qts.  It is a vertical design so it uses a smaller footprint which always helps in the kitchen. Kitchen space is always a problem

 

Mitch (Weinoo) was just telling me about this machine. I'd suggest seeing if any reviewers report how much overrun it generates. The older, popular Whynter machine supposedly spun fast and made fluffy ice cream. If this machine is similar, make sure you're ok with that.

[ccp900]

3 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I was not aware of the ICM201sb.  Try it and report back.

 

I am trying to get it but It does not exist where I am from.  Frustrating to tell you the truth

[weinoo]

7 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

Mitch (Weinoo) was just telling me about this machine. I'd suggest seeing if any reviewers report how much overrun it generates. The older, popular Whynter machine supposedly spun fast and made fluffy ice cream. If this machine is similar, make sure you're ok with that.

 

Yes, indeed.  There are a number of reviews out there, certainly on the older Whynter machines. I am basically interested in the newest Whynter because of it's smaller footprint and the fact that it will make 2 quarts; even if it won't make 2 quarts, it'll make more than 1.

 

Quote

The dasher on the Whynter ICM-200LS Stainless Steel Ice Cream Maker rotates at 25 rpm, resulting in overrun of about 8%. This is the lowest of the three machines and produces ice cream that is slightly heavier and denser than that produced by the Cuisinart ICE-100 and the Breville BCI600XL. 

 

I would think there might be some ice cream geeks who will love those reviews linked above, since they contain shit like this:

 

Quote

To test the three machines, 3 ice cream mixes were formulated to contain 54.9% total solids, 23.3% milk fat, 10.8% milk solids-not-fat (the lactose, proteins, minerals, water-soluble vitamins, enzymes, and some minor constituents), 16.3% sucrose, and 4.4% egg yolks. All mixes contained fresh cream, fresh milk, skimmed milk powder, sucrose, and egg yolk solids. All mixes were heated to 72°C (161°F), held at that temperature for 25 minutes, cooled, and aged overnight at 4°C (39°F). Mix composition was kept constant for all 3 mixes but mix volume varied from 700 ml (0.74 quarts) for the Breville BCI600XL Smart Scoop Ice Cream Maker and the Cuisinart ICE-100 Compressor Ice Cream and Gelato Maker, to 900 ml (0.95 quarts) for the Whynter ICM-200LS Stainless Steel Ice Cream Maker. Results from the 3 tests can be seen in section 5.2 of this review.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by weinoo (log)

[teonzo]

14 hours ago, paulraphael said:

I've never had ice cream made with raw milk, but have hesitations about the whole idea, separate from the safety-related ones. 

 

Uncooked milk proteins behave very differently in an ice cream than cooked ones. When the proteins are denatured by  the right degree of cooking, they take on new properties that are helpful in terms of texture and emulsification.

 

I know the theory behind ice-cream. But I talk from first hand experience. The 2 times I made fiordilatte with raw milk/cream were by far the best ones ever. Absolutely no troubles about texture.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, paulraphael said:

Meanwhile, anyone could tell the difference by tasting the milk and cream straight. The reasons are that the sugar overpowers the subtle dairy flavors, and that our sense of taste is just less sensitive to cold things (although in this case, we couldn't even taste the difference when tasting the melted ice cream). 

 

They did a similar experiment at Serious Eats and came to the same conclusion.

 

We did a blind test and people recognized the difference between raw, no cooking from pasteurized, cooking from pasteurized. Probably we are starting from different stuff, every professional I know that worked in the USA said that milk and cream are noticeably different there.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[paulraphael]

6 minutes ago, teonzo said:

 

I know the theory behind ice-cream. But I talk from first hand experience. The 2 times I made fiordilatte with raw milk/cream were by far the best ones ever. Absolutely no troubles about texture.

 

 

 

 

We did a blind test and people recognized the difference between raw, no cooking from pasteurized, cooking from pasteurized. Probably we are starting from different stuff, every professional I know that worked in the USA said that milk and cream are noticeably different there.

 

 

 

Teo

 

 

That's certainly interesting. I'd like to try it someday. It's a mostly moot point in the US; you can't even buy raw milk here unless you're a member of a farm co-op that produces it. 

 

Jeni's Splendid used to buy and process raw milk; they stopped after they found the sanitation requirements were just too difficult. They had to shut down and recall their product twice after finding lysteria in the kitchen. 

[weinoo]

I’m sure @teonzo would love to host us to try the raw milk products in the Veneto!

 

And we also see some Veroneses while we are at it!

[paulraphael]

3 hours ago, weinoo said:

I’m sure @teonzo would love to host us to try the raw milk products in the Veneto!

 

And we also see some Veroneses while we are at it!

 

I'm in.

[teonzo]

Unfortunately now I'm facing some personal troubles, so I can't be a good host.
When I'll open my own pastry shop I'll be sure to write a post here, so any eGulleter visiting Venice will gladly be my guest.

But I'll have to find a new source for raw milk. We have some raw milk dispensers around here. They are a wood box on the side of a street/square. You put your money, open a small door with a nozzle, put your bottle under the nozzle, press a button and get the raw milk you paid for. After you finished you close the door, so a vapor jet will sanitize the nozzle and everything inside the door after each use. The farmer (owner of the dispenser) goes every evening to collect the remaining (day old) milk and add the new one.
A month ago I got 2 liters of milk, since I wanted to make some hand churned butter made from raw milk (you know, when you wake up with a strong need and decide to fix it). I was unable to skim the milk to get the cream. Same the 2 times I tried again. Don't know what the hell they changed, but this isn't the raw milk I'm used to. When I was a child one of my duties was to go to our neighbour and buy 1 liter of raw milk each evening (they had a farm with cows and so on), then help my grandmother churning butter. Another piece of my youth that's gone with industrialization.

 

 

Teo

 

[weinoo]

I had to go to the farm and milk the cows.

No wait, that was my grandmother.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Thinking yogurt and cheese, I tried to buy raw goat milk from several goat farms near us in the country.   By telephone.     I was met with panicky sounding voices repeating that "NO, NO, NO WE DON'T SELL GOAT MILK!   NEVER.    EVER!!! "     Strong regulation in California.    

Edited July 29, 2020 by Margaret Pilgrim (log)

[Yiannos]

I'm in California just outside of Sacramento, and I believe at least a couple of the natural food stores around here sell raw milk. We are among a handful of states that allow retail sales, according to a quick search. Have never tried it but this site always has a way of piquing my curiosity...

[mgaretz]

3 hours ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

Thinking yogurt and cheese, I tried to buy raw goat milk from several goat farms near us in the country.   By telephone.     I was met with panicky sounding voices repeating that "NO, NO, NO WE DON'T SELL GOAT MILK!   NEVER.    EVER!!! "     Strong regulation in California.    

 

 

I saw goat milk the other day in Sprouts.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

41 minutes ago, mgaretz said:

 

I saw goat milk the other day in Sprouts.

Yes, thanks.  I see Meyenberg brand but I believe it is pasteurized.    I was hoping for raw.

[paulraphael]

3 hours ago, Yiannos said:

I'm in California just outside of Sacramento, and I believe at least a couple of the natural food stores around here sell raw milk. We are among a handful of states that allow retail sales, according to a quick search. Have never tried it but this site always has a way of piquing my curiosity...

 

I stand corrected. I thought law was federal but it's state by state (in NY raw milk can be sold by the farm that produces it). Here's list by state.

 

Please be careful if you decide to work with raw dairy, especially if you're serving anyone who's immune-compromised. This means labelling everything with dates and checking the temperature of your fridge at the location where you'll be storing it. 

[weinoo]

I want to thank @paulraphael et al. for learning me the "draw" temperature of ice cream. Something I really never knew or if I knew, never thought about. 

 

Yesterday's ice cream experiments led me to stop the Lello when I first saw what looked like ice cream in the machine - this took place after a mere 11 minutes of spinning (I was only doing a pint).  And It was already at a proper draw temperature, so I drew it.

 

It appears that the Lello will make a pint of ice cream in well under 15 minutes. Of course, it was well-chilled (like 6 hours) from the fridge. And everything else was icy cold - I give the Lello about a 15 to 20 minute cool down.

 

Interesting. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks.