Pizza Dough

[mroybal]

I currently run a pizzeria in the Napa Valley. We do a traditional Napoli style pie, and we make our own dough, which after much trial and error works great. Currently I am playing with different techniqiues for "rolling"(never use a rolling pin hands only) out the dough. AP flour works fine for dusting the dough and is inexpensive. A 50/50 mixture of High Protien flour, and Semolina gives a crisper pie because the semolina draws out a bit of the moisture(at least in my oven tha uses wood as fuel)

I am more than willing to give anybody our dough recipe though the quality my suffer due to being scaled down.

Some other great places for pizza in the Bay Area are A16 in san Francisco, and Pizzaiolo in Oakland.

[HQAntithesis]

Hiya mroybal, can't say pizzas are quite my area but I'd love to give your recipe a try if you don't mind sharing it!

[CaliPoutine]

I'd love it too.

I REFUSE to order pizza in my small town. I grew up with NY style pizza and I'm always looking for something to either repilcate it or to satisfy my cravings.

I live 2 doors down from the most horrible pizza chain in Canada.

[mroybal]

Here is the recipe, it is not scaled down yet but dividing by 10 should give you around a 3 pound batch, . I also add some old dough but it is not required 1 oz of dough should be good for a scaled down version.

20 lbs AP Flour

3 oz dry yeast

6.5 qt warm water

6.5 wz kosher salt

In mixer combine yeast and water and mix w/ dough hook for 5 min. the add salt, then flour. Mix for 25 min on medium speed(2 on a hobart, 4 or 5 on a kitchen aid. Remove form bowl and place in an olive oil lined bowl, and cover, make sure you leave enough room for the dough to rise. I leave the dough in the walk in(refrigerator) over nigt. The next day I portion the dough 12 oz will make a nice 12 inch pizza. O shape the dough into balls and cover with plastic. It is best if the dough is left to rest about 5 hours, or over night. I prefer to shape the dough by hand, there are some good demo videos on youtube http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA

Let me know if you need any help

This should work scaled down

2 lbs Ap flour

8.5 grams dry yeast

21 wz warm water

18.5 grams salt

Edited August 5, 2008 by mroybal (log)

[mroybal]

I'd love it too. 

I REFUSE to order pizza in my small town.  I grew up with NY style pizza and I'm always looking for something to either repilcate it or to satisfy my cravings.

I live 2 doors down from the most horrible pizza chain in Canada.

←

I can't promise a pie as good as those in New York, I think the water and natural yeast in the air make a difference, much like San Francisco sour dough bread

[paulraphael]

I can't promise a pie as good as those in New York, I think the water and natural yeast in the air make a difference, much like San Francisco sour dough bread

←

Oh, I think you can you do as well as anyone here. The only secret ingredients in NYC pizza are territorialism and nostalgia!

The best crusts just come from ones who work like serious pizza artisans. Una Pizza Napoletana imports wheat and sea salt from outside Naples, mills their own flour, leavens with natural starters, and ages the dough for three days before using.

I don't know if Patsy's in East Harlem ever talked about their methods, but here's a website listing the hoops jumped through by a dedicated immitator: http://slice.seriouseats.com/jvpizza/

Anyway. As far as scaling goes, this is your recipe:

Flour: 100%

Water: 68%

Yeast: 0.9%

Salt: 2%

[slkinsey]

I can't promise a pie as good as those in New York, I think the water and natural yeast in the air make a difference, much like San Francisco sour dough bread

For sure "natural yeast in the air" makes zero difference in most NYC pizza, all of which (with the exception of Una Pizza Napoletana) are leavened with commercial yeast. It is anyway unlikely that the yeast (and lactobacilli, which are more important) which populate a continually refreshed natural leaven come "from the air."

Oh, I think you can you do as well as anyone here. The only secret ingredients in NYC pizza are territorialism and nostalgia!

Right! Especially when you consider that 80% of NYC pizza is not particularly distinguished, and perhaps 3% of it is outstanding.

Anyway. As far as scaling goes, this is your recipe:

Flour: 100%

Water: 68%

Yeast: 0.9%

Salt: 2%

I'm not sure that any one pizzeria's dough technique or formula necessarily extends to other pizzerie or to home bakers to produce similar results. That said, I have found this to be a reasonably good formula for the home baker. My pizza dough recipe for home is a 70% hydrated AP flour dough with a lot less yeast (around 0.2%) and no salt. I employ a no-knead technique, ferment overnight and then retard in the refrigerator 5 days or more.

Edited August 6, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[Tri2Cook]

My pizza dough recipe for home is a 70% hydrated AP flour dough with a lot less yeast (around 0.2%) and no salt.  I employ a no-knead technique, ferment overnight and then retard in the refrigerator 5 days or more.

←

That's pretty close to what I do at work. The main differences being I do use salt, I do it in the 60 qt. mixer (because I'm doing a little over double what mroybal's recipe does, it's based on a 20 kg bag of flour) and it doesn't get 5 days, it usually gets about 2 - 3. I average 3 - 4 of those batches a week so there's always some going... and we're not even a pizza place as such. We added them for extra income and they took on a life of their own.

[paulraphael]

The only thing that surprises me about mroybal's recipe is the 25 minutes of machine mixing. That seems way excessive. I can't help but think that results would be better with a 20 minute or longer autolyse, much briefer mixing (maybe much of it with only a portion of the flour but all the water) and a decent amount of time retarding in the fridge.

[dougal]

...

3 oz dry yeast

...

In mixer combine yeast and water and mix w/ dough hook for 5 min.  the add salt, then flour.  ...

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This would seem to be "actively dried" yeast (rather than "easyblend") because of the way it is rehydrated as the first stage.

My contention is that "actively dried" is best suited to pizza - where the requirement is for a smooth and extensible dough, with little need for strength.

This dough conditioning effect (from the 30% dead - "deactivated" - cells in actively dried yeast) will be emphasised by both the long period of retarding, and the hitting of the newly rehydrated yeast with a dose of salt before mixing it through the flour.

There's going to be a lot of "deactivated" yeast giving up lots of glutathione - this looks like a recipe for an extremely soft and extensible dough -- exactly what a pizza demands!

[artisanbaker]

myrobal:

Not sure if we've met or not...

At any rate, one thing that I can say is that most pizzerias mix the dough and allow a fermentation time of 20 minutes at most (as opposed to your overnight fermentation in bulk). Some even start division immediately after mixing. This is usually dependant on the quantity of hands on deck for processing the dough. The balls are stacked and trays and rotated as needed, with a shelf life of 30+ hours.

You should be certain to take the temperature of the dough with a proper thermometer; keeping track of this can help your consistency, especially if you have different people mixing the dough.

I'll leave the flour suggestions to the respective marketing departments and those with stronger convictions than myself. I know that Nattress had Guisto's mill him some 00; at least that's what he told me. Maybe you should ask him. Perhaps he is still involved at the St Helena Farmers Market.

At any rate, your yeast dosage depends on your needs and the way the dough is reacting. If it is moving to fast for you then reduce and vice versa. I suggest using SAF instant yeast as it is very reliable and consistent. You can also save time by adding it with the flour; no "proofing" necessary. The usual suspects carry it or try calling Sarah at Model and see if you can piggy back on their order.

I don't know why you want to delay the salt; it can't hurt terribly but it does promote oxidation, which in turn decreases flavor.

Your pizza is good; it's been too long since I've been in the valley and had the opportunity to have one out on the terrace.

Ric Forman was here last night promoting his wines and it made me miss the valley very much. Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.

[mroybal]

myrobal:

Not sure if we've met or not...

At any rate, one thing that I can say is that most pizzerias mix the dough and allow a fermentation time of 20 minutes at most (as opposed to your overnight fermentation in bulk). Some even start division immediately after mixing.  This is usually dependant on the quantity of hands on deck for processing the dough. The balls are stacked and trays and rotated as needed, with a shelf life of 30+ hours.

You should be certain to take the temperature of the dough with a proper thermometer; keeping track of this can help your consistency, especially if you have different people mixing the dough.

I'll leave the flour suggestions to the respective marketing departments and those with stronger convictions than myself. I know that Nattress had Guisto's mill him some 00; at least that's what he told me. Maybe you should ask him. Perhaps he is still involved at the St Helena Farmers Market.

At any rate, your yeast dosage depends on your needs and the way the dough is reacting. If it is moving to fast for you then reduce and vice versa. I suggest using SAF instant yeast as it is very reliable and consistent. You can also save time by adding it with the flour; no "proofing" necessary.  The usual suspects carry it or try calling Sarah at Model and see if you can piggy back on their order. 

I don't know why you want to delay the salt; it can't hurt terribly but it does promote oxidation, which in turn decreases flavor.

Your pizza is good; it's been too long since I've been in the valley and had the opportunity to have one out on the terrace.

Ric Forman was here last night promoting his wines and it made me miss the valley very much. Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.

←

Hi thanks for the suggestions, I will try them and run a few pies by the owners. I know the reason we go for an overnight fermentation has to main reasons the first being the owners like the flavor development from the extra fermentation time, and a more practical reason is we go through so much dough a day, our counter space is limited, and a new catering company that the owners opened stole our 30 gl hobart forcing use to have all our dough made at our main restaurant.

I plan on going to pizzaioli this tuesday, and possibly a16 the same day to try their food, the executive chef says the pies at pizzaioli are the best he has had in the U.S. and he has spent some time in New York. I hope my expectations are not so high that it squews my perception of the food.

[Eliza]

I'd love to re-open this thread because I've got some burning questions. I'm in the unenviable position of being both a pizza snob and being not-great at making perfect pizza dough.

-Any ideas on what the flour to water ratio of an ideal thin crust might be? (i wasn't sure if mroybal's 100:68 recipe is used for thin-crust)

-Does a thin crust have less to do with recipe and more to do with simply "rolling" it very thin with your hands?

-Is there a realistic way to make a large batch of dough, enough for 15 or 20 10-in. pies, without a giant Hobart mixer?

-Does a longer rest minimize the kneading/mixing time, as it does with Jim Lahey's no-knead bread recipe? (I know there's a no-knead pizza dough recipe floating around, but it hasn't gotten great feedback)

[slkinsey]

-Any ideas on what the flour to water ratio of an ideal thin crust might be? (i wasn't sure if mroybal's 100:68 recipe is used for thin-crust)

I do 70% hydration (water weighs 70% as much as the weight of the flour) with AP flour. If you use bread flour, which I do not recommend, you'll have to use more water to get a similar amount of extensibility. No salt. No fat.

-Does a thin crust have less to do with recipe and more to do with simply "rolling" it very thin with your hands?

There's not much to a "recipe" for pizza dough. Mix a bunch of water and flour together with some yeast, fement, bake. The higher the hydration and the longer the fermentation, the more extensibility you will get. You do not want to "roll" the dough, because this will work out any little pockets of air in the dough that you want to keep. Just put the dough on your work surface and poke it with your finger tips until you get the thickness you want. A wetter/longer fermented dough makes this a lot easier.

-Is there a realistic way to make a large batch of dough, enough for 15 or 20 10-in. pies, without a giant Hobart mixer?

Yes, use a no-knead recipe.

-Does a longer rest minimize the kneading/mixing time, as it does with Jim Lahey's no-knead bread recipe? (I know there's a no-knead pizza dough recipe floating around, but it hasn't gotten great feedback)

If no-knead pizza dough has had bad feedback, I'm not aware of it. My standard method is 70% hydration with AP flour, a very small amount of yeast, no kneading, overnight fermentation and then retarding the dough in the refrigerator for several days. Works like a charm every time. If you don't have time or space to retard the dough, just let it go 24 hours at room temperature, turning the dough over every so often. Still, though, nothing beats the slackness of a long-retarded pizza dough. When I started retarding the dough for 5 days or longer, my wife immediately noticed an improvement in the final product.

[tino27]

slkinsey -- Why no salt? Because of the long 5 day retardation time? When you go to eat the final product, isn't the pizza crust a little flat tasting without any salt?

Edited April 7, 2009 by tino27 (log)

[saturnbar]

Sam, when you say overnight fermentation, do you mean leave it on the counter oiled and covered in a bowl. mroybal seemd to indicate that fermentation took place in the fridge. Just wanted to make sure I had it straight. ch

[Eliza]

splendid, slkinsey. thanks so much. i'm going to start with Lahey's no-knead recipe and go from there.

one more question i forgot to ask: why have i heard that, when scaling up a recipe, you can't just multiply the portion of yeast like you do with other ingredients?

[tino27]

Eliza, it depends on how much you are scaling up the recipe. If you are doubling or tripling the recipe, you are fairly safe to scale the yeast in the same amount. However, if you are scaling the recipe by a factor of 10, say, you wouldn't need 10 times the amount of yeast to get the same result. In fact, the dough might be too active if you did that.

[Eliza]

so if i were, for example, scaling up by a factor of ten, any ideas on what the yeast ought to be multiplied by? or is it something i need to figure out by feel, and trial and error?

[slkinsey]

To answer a few questions:

Eliza: No need to scale up the yeast. Just ferment longer. I normally do 1000 grams of AP flour with 700 grams of water and perhaps a half-teaspoon of yeast. That's enough for three large pizzas. If I were going to double the recipe, I wouldn't add any more yeast. If I were going to increase the recipe ten-fold, I'd increase the yeast (or I'd start with a poolish).

tino27: No salt because salt isn't traditional. The toppings will be salty enough. Salt is only really needed in the dough when it's going to be a thick crust and the lack of salt would make the pizza bland.

saturnbar: I ferment in a large covered bowl on the counter overnight. After that, it goes into a large plastic bag and into the refrigerator for 5 days or more. The reason I like to do the initial overnight fermentation at room temperature is so that the very small amount of yeast I use has a chance to really get going before I bring the temperature down to a level where it will start to inhibit yeast growth. If I put it directly into the refrigerator, it would take forever to ferment.

[Alcuin]

I normally do 1000 grams of AP flour with 700 grams of water and perhaps a half-teaspoon of yeast.  That's enough for three large pizzas.  If I were going to double the recipe, I wouldn't add any more yeast.  If I were going to increase the recipe ten-fold, I'd increase the yeast (or I'd start with a poolish).

←

You only get three pizzas out of that? That's going to be roughly (I didn't do the math, so...) 16-20 oz per pie. I usually do about 6-9oz per pie. Perhaps you have a gigantic oven or I'm missing something.

[slkinsey]

I normally do 1000 grams of AP flour with 700 grams of water and perhaps a half-teaspoon of yeast.  That's enough for three large pizzas.

You only get three pizzas out of that? That's going to be roughly (I didn't do the math, so...) 16-20 oz per pie. I usually do about 6-9oz per pie. Perhaps you have a gigantic oven or I'm missing something.

That's 20 ounces of dough per pizza, that's right. These are not individually-sized pizzas, however. Usually I stretch it out into a rectangle that's approximately the same size and shape as my baking stone. This works out to right around the same square inches as a 17.5 inch round pizza. If I were going to do a 12 inch Neapolitan-style "personal" pizza, this has approximately half the surface area, and I'd use half as much dough per pizza. For a 10 inch pizza, I'd use one-third as much dough. So, if you're making 10 inch pizzas with around 7 ounces of dough per pizza, we're using the same amount of dough. This assumes, of course, that we're using approximately the same hydration.

Edited April 8, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[qrn]

my Pizza dough recipe is ..

high gluten flour 100%

H2O 58.65%

salt 1.5%

yeast (active dry) .3%

Olive oil 3%

Mix ingredients in Ka mixer for 5 minutes with dough hook

Put in 450 g batches in I gal plastic bags and place in veg bin of reefer.

let sit for 4 or 5 days.remove from reefer and flatten dough in bags so you have a thinlayer of dough. Freeze.

When you want to make pizza, remove from freezer 6 or so hours before using.(Depending on your Microwave, You can thaw it there...(need a really low setting on MW)But will still have to rise for couple hours.

The dough will have risen(sp.) and be fluffy. form dough into suitable shape and make pizza...

Bud

[gatilgan]

-Any ideas on what the flour to water ratio of an ideal thin crust might be?  (i wasn't sure if mroybal's 100:68 recipe is used for thin-crust)

I do 70% hydration (water weighs 70% as much as the weight of the flour) with AP flour.  If you use bread flour, which I do not recommend, you'll have to use more water to get a similar amount of extensibility.  No salt.  No fat.

-Does a thin crust have less to do with recipe and more to do with simply "rolling" it very thin with your hands?

There's not much to a "recipe" for pizza dough.  Mix a bunch of water and flour together with some yeast, fement, bake.  The higher the hydration and the longer the fermentation, the more extensibility you will get.  You do not want to "roll" the dough, because this will work out any little pockets of air in the dough that you want to keep.  Just put the dough on your work surface and poke it with your finger tips until you get the thickness you want.  A wetter/longer fermented dough makes this a lot easier.

-Is there a realistic way to make a large batch of dough, enough for 15 or 20 10-in. pies, without a giant Hobart mixer?

Yes, use a no-knead recipe.

-Does a longer rest minimize the kneading/mixing time, as it does with Jim Lahey's no-knead bread recipe?  (I know there's a no-knead pizza dough recipe floating around, but it hasn't gotten great feedback)

If no-knead pizza dough has had bad feedback, I'm not aware of it.  My standard method is 70% hydration with AP flour, a very small amount of yeast, no kneading, overnight fermentation and then retarding the dough in the refrigerator for several days.  Works like a charm every time.  If you don't have time or space to retard the dough, just let it go 24 hours at room temperature, turning the dough over every so often.  Still, though, nothing beats the slackness of a long-retarded pizza dough.  When I started retarding the dough for 5 days or longer, my wife immediately noticed an improvement in the final product.

←

Sam, at what temperature and for how long do you bake the pizza using the above no-knead recipe? Thanks

[slkinsey]

The highest temperature my oven can hold, directly on a piece of heavy slate, for 2 minutes or less usually.