Kitchen Remodeling

[C. sapidus]

I notice that you both ended up with something I have now, and don't want.  That's a stovetop that faces directly into a windowless wall.  With all the time I spend at the stove, I really want something to see besides the wall.  Is it more a matter of practicality, that you both ended up with that stove orientation, or am I alone in caring about that?

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Abra: You are not alone. We tried lots of layouts with the range top facing the dining room (or at a 45 degree angle to the dining room). In every case, we either created a bottleneck, lost too much cabinet space, or had no landing area on one side of the range top. So yes, practicality determined the range top orientation.

As for the hood, I've been amazed over the past few years when I was working as a personal chef in other peoples' kitchens at the progress that's been made in the downdraft vents used on island cooktops with no hoods.  At first I thought it would be a recipe for disaster, but the higher end ones work amazingly well.

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Interesting. Do you think that any of those downdraft hoods could capture the acrid fumes from toasting chilies or smoking mustard oil?

Edit: formatting

Edited August 24, 2006 by C. sapidus (log)

[scubadoo97]

Interesting. Do you think that any of those downdraft hoods could capture the acrid fumes from toasting chilies or smoking mustard oil?

Bruce, my thoughts exactly. I just cleaned my hood baffles and notice how much grease was on them this time. I went with a 42" X 27"hood over a 36" rangetop to give more capture and still when using the front burner, if I don't have the blower near high it will not always capture all the smoke from pan grilling. With down drafts I would have to see it to believe it.

[elfin]

We are very tall and when we do our kitchen, we would like to make the cabinets taller/countertops higher. Can this be done using stock cabinets? Since we do not have tall ceilings, this could be a problem with the upper shelves. Also, the 30 inch vs 24 inch counter top depth referred in a post above-is the only problem with the 30 in. accessing the upper shelves? Are these the two standard widths? We have a tiny kitchen with little counter space. Is it better to get the countertops wider thus reducing floor space? I doubt we will buy a built-in refrigerator as the reduced interior depth is problematic.

[scubadoo97]

You can customize stock cabinets by adding a wood rail around the top of them to give you more height. You can increase the depth even using stock 24" cabinets by adding a deeper counter top but you do run the risk of having to reach further to get to the upper cabinets. We kept the standard 24" for this reason except over the wine cooler since I needed a little more space behind the wine cabinet for a gas line.

[Abra]

I can't say about toasting chiles or mustard oil, but I have successfully done near-burnt onions for vindaloo and various curries using a downdraft, in houses where the owner was fussy about food fumes. I definitely wouldn't get one if I were going to use a wok a lot - that semi-vaporized oil is really the devil to clean up and I can't imagine that a downdraft would work for that.

But for a person who mainly cooks soups, stews, sautees, and the like, and does their high-heat grilling under a broiler with an oven fan, I'd say they work excellently.

[kiliki]

C. Sapidus-What a great remodel. Beautiful and just the right size, I think. I love the wall of cabinets/buffet at the end of the room.

Edited August 24, 2006 by kiliki (log)

[Dave Hatfield]

we would like to make the cabinets taller/countertops higher. Can this be done using stock cabinets?

As previously noted you can add wood on the top or on the bottom. IKEA sell a couple of different height feet as well as some that are adjustable.

is the only problem with the 30 in. accessing the upper shelves?

Yes & if you're tall it isn't much of an issue. The extra depth is worth it.

Is it better to get the countertops wider thus reducing floor space?

Personal opinion; I'd go for the counter space.

I doubt we will buy a built-in refrigerator as the reduced interior depth is problematic.

See our kitchen further up the post. The fridge is full depth so the doors stick out. We found this an acceptable conprimise. Its worth thinking about.

[VanessaBerman]

Ugh... I'm just about to start the renovations on my kitchen... it's a nightmare, I hate it.

One of these days I will have a kitchen I can cook in but in the meantime each decision is driving me crazy - there seem to be knock-on implications for everything we do... And our budget is stretched to its absolute max.

I'll post pix when it's done, ie when the builders manage to fit in a huge, spacious, well-equipped kitchen into my tiny house. Because they can do that kind of magic.

Work is scheduled to start Monday week, and should be done 4 weeks after that.

Everybody cross your fingers for us!

[VanessaBerman]

Is it better to get the countertops wider thus reducing floor space?

The only problem with going for deeper/wider countertops is that often you will have to pay over the odds for a non-standard size...

[ermintrude]

Top tip when buying a kitchen but your apliances over the internet (and if needed from many stores) doing this I managed to buty things for 1/2 to a 1/3rd of the price the kitchen people or high street retailers were charging.

E.g. Bought my induction hob for £550 they wanted £1400, Fridge £800 they wanted £2400 etc.

The only this was to order well in advance (and check anticipated delivery) to ensure it's all there for the fitters. And pay by credit card in case there are any problems you can get your £££ back.

[ermintrude]

Top tip when buying a kitchen but your apliances over the internet (and if needed from many stores) doing this I managed to buty things for 1/2 to a 1/3rd of the price the kitchen people or high street retailers were charging.

E.g. Bought my induction hob for £550 they wanted £1400, Fridge £800 they wanted £2400 etc.

The only this was to order well in advance (and check anticipated delivery) to ensure it's all there for the fitters. And pay by credit card in case there are any problems you can get your £££ back.

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What I like best about the new kitchen are:-

Induction Hob

Oven http://www.aeg-electrolux.co.uk/node146.asp?ProdID=3021 - The steam, low temp and meat probe let you do all sorts of fun things.

Corian worksurface and splash back

[C. sapidus]

I wanted to include a link for the National Kitchen and Bath Association kitchen design guidelines (link). Excellent resource, highly recommended.

I doubt we will buy a built-in refrigerator as the reduced interior depth is problematic.

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Yes, we boxed in a standard-depth refrigerator for this reason. If you do this, check the manufacturer’s requirements for clearance to ensure proper ventilation.

C. Sapidus-What a great remodel. Beautiful and just the right size, I think. I love the wall of cabinets/buffet at the end of the room.

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Thank you! We couldn’t manage without the dining room cabinets. Eventually, my wife will make stained glass pieces to fit in tracks between the counter and upper cabinets.

Is it better to get the countertops wider thus reducing floor space?

The only problem with going for deeper/wider countertops is that often you will have to pay over the odds for a non-standard size...

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We paid by the square foot for engineered stone countertops. A 30-inch deep countertop was 25% more expensive, but it provides 25% more work space compared with a 24-inch deep counter. One may pay a premium for non-standard sizes of different countertop materials, and of course pricing may be different in Ireland.

VanessaBest of luck with your kitchen renovation. And this too shall pass.

[Dave Hatfield]

Here comes my kitchen number 2. A real stunner this one. A word of advice; don’t let the ‘old’ look fool you. There are some very neat & up to date ideas in this kitchen. The look was chosen to suit the setting which is a real medieval chateau

Partial view as you enter the kitchen from outside.

A very rough drawing of the kitchen.

Background

This kitchen is part of a total chateau renovation which took over three years. M & R who did it are an international couple who have lived in quite a few countries. (She is a New Zealander & he is English) Thus, they had a lot of ideas picked up from numerous countries. Additionally, this was by no means their first kitchen.

The overall space is large, roughly 25’ by 20’ plus the pantry. The previous uses of the room varied over the years.

The ’Discussions’

Not extensive in this case as R was THE primary designer. M had his input, but deferred to the chief designer.

Eating area. This is to the Left of the previous picture. M couldn’t resist getting in the act!

Essential Elements

Here it was essential that the kitchen be in keeping with the location. This ruled out modern looks and dictated that as much as possible of the ‘modern’ appliances be concealed.

The kitchen had to work. Functionality would not be sacrificed for appearance. Even though there was lots of space available R wanted a kitchen that was comfortable to work in, one that didn’t require lots of moving from place to place while doing a meal. (I’ve cooked in this kitchen & can say that she succeeded)

R&M entertain frequently and do serious cooking so the kitchen is well set up for heavy duty use.

Limitations

The biggest limitation was light. It proved impossible to add another window as R&M would have liked. Otherwise there were no serious constraints.

The outside of the work area. Book shelves below & double aspect cupboards above.

Equipment

Everything is of excellent quality. 5 burner gas hob, regular oversized oven, a steam oven, concealed fridge (plus a big fridge in the walk in pantry), Espresso maker, Two dishwasher drawers and water softener/purifier.

Inside the work area showing the sink & worktops.

Cook top. There is counter space on both sides.

The oven side of the work space. Dual ovens, warming drawer, concealed fridge & espresso unit.

View into the walk in larder as yet unfinished

Cabinetry

All custom cabinets including dual access (i.e. from both sides) cabinets. Some of the drawer dividers & other interior hardware are from Hafele. The cabinet fronts are old used oak custom built by Bernard who is a local ebonist (cabinet maker).

The concept was to have the effect of antique cabinets which suited the chateau yet still have all of the modern features & convenience inside.

Worktops

The worktops are solid natural Puylagarde stone from a village nearby. This stone is used in many local houses so is very appropriate.

Flooring

The flooring is also natural stone from near Cahors. It was chosen for its color & durability.

How much of the Design did you do?

All of it.

How much of the construction did you do?

None of it.

The steam oven with warming drawer below.

The spice drawer!

Special horizontal storage.

Bottle storage using Hafele dividers.

How long was the kitchen supposed to take?

About 6 months.

How long did it actually take?

Roughly one year. It didn’t help that the cabinet maker injured himself & couldn’t work for a couple of months.

Dishwasher drawers. These came from New Zealand. Much neater than a regular dishwasher!

The totally hidden fridge.

Solid stone sink.

An amazing faucet in keeping with the sink.

% cost over/under?

The cabinetry was a bit under. Appliances were on plan.

How did your relationship survive?

No problems in our case as R did all of it.

Waiting for dinner!

As you can see this is a very special kitchen and shows what you can do given the space, imagination, experience and a fairly generous budget.

[scubadoo97]

Very cool Dave. Great kitchens from you and Bruce. Keep the pictures coming. Vanessa, can't wait to see your's when your done. It will be worth it. I love cooking in my kitchen now. Actually I loved cooking in the old one but now I can invite people over.

[Sarabeth]

So many great ideas here!

I have questions about flooring... ours has got to go. Not only is it aging vinyl (we inherited it when we bought the house), but is a horrible pattern with ridges that are nearly impossible to keep clean.

I've thought about tile, and I've heard good things about cork. For those of you who have renovated, how did you make your choice? For those of you about to renovate, in what direction are you heading?

Thanks for getting this started Dave!

[Dave Hatfield]

I have questions about flooring... ours has got to go.

My recommendation is tile. Hard wearing, easy to clean and can be pretty inexpensive. All kinds of colors available so you can match up to or compliment cabinets.

We had cork many years ago & were not happy. It was nice underfoot, but just didn't stand up to the wear in heavy traffic areas; like in from of the sink.

Keep the pictures coming.

I agree, the more the merrier.

I'll be posting my kitchen #3 tomorrow. This one's a real beauty that used to be the place where the cows were kept!

[scubadoo97]

I agree with Dave that tile is one of the best options in the kitchen IMO. We loved the look of hardwood, bamboo and even considered laminate flooring in the kitchen but a kitchen is a wet area. You really need a flooring that can handle getting wet without worry. We opted for tile because of all the benefits Dave mentioned. We used a large porcelain tile. Linoleum, not vinyl, is another option that is long lasting and can take the wear.

[Soupcon]

Does anyone have an opinion about/or has used linoleum.

I am at the beginning of a kitchen remodel that will take a few years as it will be done in stages. I presently have a wood floor in my kitchen and I hate it... it looks good admittedly but needs refinishing (sanding, restaining and 3-5 coats of urethane every 5 years or so) as well as daily cleaning. I don't think I want tile because it is hard on the feet but admittedly also looks good and is easy to clean (needs resealing I think periodically). Which leave me linoleum as I refuse to consider vinyl.

[scubadoo97]

Tile needs no sealing. It is advisable to seal the grout and if that is done correctly and that is the key word it should last 8-10 yrs before needing to be redone. You can also have tile cut with very sharp straight edges so it needs little grout. It really looks good this way. You avoid the running grout lines that may be visually unappealing

[VanessaBerman]

Thanks for all your good wishes, guys... I'll let you know the progress.

vx

[Abra]

I'll just add that we have Pergo on the kitchen floor. The kitchen had been remodeled shortly before we bought the house, so we weren't about to tear it out right away. Although I wouldn't have chosen it, the Pergo has held up perfectly for the past 5 years, no dings from stuff being dropped, no stains, no damage from lots of wet incidents. It looks more or less like wood, but behaves more like vinyl, and looks exactly as it did on the day we moved in.

[FabulousFoodBabe]

I'll just add that we have Pergo on the kitchen floor.  The kitchen had been remodeled shortly before we bought the house, so we weren't about to tear it out right away.  Although I wouldn't have chosen it, the Pergo has held up perfectly for the past 5 years, no dings from stuff being dropped, no stains, no damage from lots of wet incidents.  It looks more or less like wood, but behaves more like vinyl, and looks exactly as it did on the day we moved in.

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My house in California had Pergo on the kitchen floors -- same deal, we inherited it when we bought the house. No one could tell the difference but me (no scratches!), and it sat well on the slab floor.

***

As most of you know, I'm in the final planning, pre-demolition stage for my own remodel/renovation. It's been a year in the planning, and today I signed the application for a variance for the outdoor portion of it.

I can't believe it's actually going to happen!

[Mano]

Great thread Dave!

I have a question about IKEA cabinets, which I had always dismissed as consistent with the average build quality of their other products. What makes them "second to none"?

I like the idea of saving money by using their cabinets but having the doors made elsewhere. Are the cabinets available sans doors so you don't have to go through the trouble of returning them?

[Dave Hatfield]

Great thread Dave!

I have a question about IKEA cabinets, which I had always dismissed as consistent with the average build quality of their other products.  What makes them "second to none"? 

I like the idea of saving money by using their cabinets but having the doors made elsewhere.  Are the cabinets available sans doors so you don't have to go through the trouble of returning them?

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Mano - As you can see on a previous post the IKEA cabinetry is much admired. The design is good and the components are of excellent quality. Its due to their volume that they can bring the cost down. Yes, some of the side panels are compressed wood with melamine, but so are far more expensive units. When we did a no expense spared kitchen in California the side panels were still only plywood with veneer. Don't think they were really any better or would last longer than IKEA.

I'm pretty sure that you can buy the cabinets without doors. Hopefully somebody who has done this in the states can share their experience. Our problem was linguistic; we just were not confident enough of our French to try the more complicated ordering process. I strongly suspect that a knowledgeable sales person who speaks your language would have no problem placing the order.

Let's see if we can get some help from somebody else who's done this in the states.

[Sarabeth]

Tile or Pergo seem like clear winners.

Thanks for all the food for thought.. I'll let you know what we decide and how it goes.

S.