Public Farmers and Food Markets

[rlibkind]

Since there does not appear to be a single topic devoted to the challenges faced by public markets, I thought I'd start one here. While the topic must necessarily discuss specifics of individual public markets, let's try to keep it focused on common problems and opportunities rather than gripe sessions about individual markets.

An article from today's Seattle Post-Intelligencer about the Future of Pike Place Market discusses concerns common to many markets. Indeed, this article was brought to my attention by Paul Steinke, GM of Philadelphia's Reading Terminal Market, because, as he said, it raises "many issues that are similar to what we are facing at Reading Terminal Market. Among these are:

- "sanitized" markets

- competition from Whole Foods and smaller neighborhood farmers' markets.

- changing areas surrounding public markets

- merchants' resistance to change

- balancing role as tourist destination and serving local residents

[chuchelo]

Our local market is Eastern Market on Capitol Hill in Washington DC. It's an old city market -- butchers, baker, cheese monger, fishmongers, fruiterer, poulterers, green grocers, etc. as well as a florist and tiny breakfast/lunch place. On the weekend, it's also a farmer's market outdoors. There's also a flea market on the weekend and an arts space. It's a weekend tourist destination on a small scale and it also has a good deal of support from the neighborhood.

There is a tension between "sanitizing" and meeting the expectations of those who shop there and for years, everything was deteriorating because no one could agree with "what to do about the market..." It seems to have found a middle way forward.

Eastern Market food hall

[ludja]

I subscribe to the Ladybug newsletter from a farm local to the Bay Area, Mariquita Farms in Watsonville, CA. Chardgirl, an eGullet member, is one of the owners. I was sad to see the announcement in their last newsletter that after selling directly at the SF Market for many years and well before it's move to the "new" Ferry Building they have had to make a business decision to no longer sell at the market. They are just not selling enough produce there. click

The numbers don’t lie. Since the Ferry Plaza Farmers Market moved from its temporary site at Green Street to the Ferry Building our gross receipts have fallen. Meanwhile, our farm’s costs, like labor, diesel, insurance, electricity, seeds, and supplies continue to rise. If I thought that raising prices for our vegetables would make our farmers market stall more profitable I would do so, but I doubt that charging more is going to make much difference over the long haul. This candid posting about the Ferry Plaza Market from the Yelp web site by “Toro E.” in April, 2006, is instructive. After making glowing comments about the market’s setting and the prepared foods Toro writes, “ I usually leave the place with only few things in my hand.  I know many people do all their grocery shopping here, but I think it’s easier to get that done at Trader Joe’s, throwing bags in the car trunk rather than lugging it back from Ferry Plaza walking. ”

The market has changed. Many farms have changed with it by turning their attention towards providing value added products like juices, preserves, herbal salts, and snacks that can be eaten out of hand.

The letter goes on to explain that they have evolved their business as well since the many tourists at the market can't/are not buying fresh food. They have shifted their sales to restaurants. (They also have a great CSA (community supported agriculture) program and they are also going to continue to open Mariquita Farm up to the public for u-picks and open houses.)

I figure that if I can’t sell fresh vegetables to diners and tourists, then I’ll sell my vegetables to the chefs that cook for them. But with a selection of bulky, fresh, wet, dripping, heavy crops that need to be prepared, we are ill suited to take advantage of the Ferry Plaza Farmers Market’s upscale retail demographics. Vegetables we don’t sell at market can’t go back into inventory the way salted nuts or frozen juices can, but have to be counted as a loss against the day’s sales.

They do mention that they think it is important to be flexible as farmers to a given market's changes within the scope that they can adapt. As examples, they cite their initial experiences in focusing on selling salad greens and tomatoes, then later, bunched greens and heirloom Italian vegetables.

Do take time to read the many reader letters in the newsletter post of this announcement; there are many interesting comments and also wonderful stories.

It sounds like Mariquita Farms has a strong future ahead of it but it is perhaps troubling for the SF Ferry Building Market to see this happen. Other stands at the market must be facing the same pressures.

Also, if you have a local market that you value, especially a "fancy" one that also attracts out of town tourists, this may be a wake up call to support the produce farmers and other sellers of perishable food with your purchases.

Good luck with your new ventures for Mariquita Farm, chardgirl, and thank you for being a great presence at the SF Market for many years.

[hathor]

Bob, thank you for starting this excellent topic, it is a subject that deserves to be talked about.

There are so many elements in play here:

*shopping for produce in a midtown setting and schlepping them home is one I never thought about, but I can see that it might present a challenge.

*tourist destination v. someone shopping for dinner. This is just an unavoidable situation in an urban setting.

*competition. This is usually a good thing for the consumer, but it is certainly going to play havoc with a small producer who doesn't have the economies of scale that Whole Foods has.

*sanitizing. Sanitizing is just plain destructive, a market should reflect a specific place, not be genericized to the point where you could be in Cleveland or Seattle. Grrrr....this one really gets to me.

Something that I can't figure out is why the local markets in Italy are thriving, vital parts of the community and here its like pulling hens teeth. Is it a cultural thing, Europeans are just used to shopping at a market? As my Italian language skills progress, I'm going to try and dig a little deeper into this when we go back.

Regardless, thanks again for opening this discussion.

[MarketStEl]

I think that one of the things that works in the Reading Terminal Market's favor is that Philadelphia has one of the largest downtown residential populations of any US city (I think only New York and Chicago outrank us).

I'm certainly going to stop by Pike Place Market when I'm in Seattle this week, but it won't be to buy fresh fish from those fish-tossers or fresh produce from Washington State farms, unless maybe it's a Washington State apple to snack on. Tourists make a poor customer base for a farmers' market that wishes to emphasize the grower-consumer link in the preparation of fresh foods. What they are looking for is food to consume then and there, and any public market that counts tourists as a majority of its customers will no doubt find its fresh food vendors soon facing a profit squeeze if not outright ruin.

Other public markets in largely tourist zones -- Boston's Quincy Market is a prime example -- eventually all but abandoned their role as sources for fresh food because the customers found it too inconvenient to go there to buy it. And as the RTM's own careful balancing act makes clear, it's not always easy to cater to both markets where both are sizable, as they are at the RTM, which sits under a large convention hall.

It looks like the Ferry Building is just far enough away from resident San Franciscans that it's not a market of choice for residents seeking fresh food. If I'm not mistaken, there is a significant residential district within shouting distance of Pike Place, and that may help that market fend off tourist pressure, especially if the number of downtown Seattle residents continues to grow.

[hathor]

Does anyone remember a produce market project that was supposed to be built in lower Manhattan? I remember seeing pretty grandiose designs for it, but then I lost track. I tried to google it but wasn't successful. Thanks.

[docsconz]

Does anyone remember a produce market project that was supposed to be built in lower Manhattan? I remember seeing pretty grandiose designs for it, but then I lost track. I tried to google it but wasn't successful.  Thanks.

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I remember reading about it awhile ago, but haven't seen anything recent.

The biggest problem that many of these markets face is inadequate transportation options, whether parking or public transportation. It is true that tourist dollars can't support these farm markets, because tourists generally are not in a position to use much of the produce no matter how appealing it is. I love visiting these markets and buy what I can. Unfortunately, that is nowhere near what I would like to buy!

[MarketStEl]

The biggest problem that many of these markets face is inadequate transportation options, whether parking or public transportation. It is true that tourist dollars can't support these farm markets, because tourists generally are not in a position to use much of the produce no matter how appealing it is. I love visiting these markets and buy what I can. Unfortunately, that is nowhere near what I would like to buy!

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History time:

When the Reading Railroad and the Terminal Market were both in their heyday, suburbanites who lived along the Reading's suburban lines to Philadelphia's north could place orders with Market merchants, and the orders would be delivered to them on outbound trains; the customers could pick them up at the Reading station nearest their home.

Would that we had a transportation option like that now!

Edited to fix grammar error.

Edited April 3, 2007 by MarketStEl (log)

[lala]

What several of you addressed, but that article on the Pike Place Market didn't even touch on was transportation - the convenience of a grocery store with a free parking lot.

The Pike Place Market garage used to offer a free hour of parking if you were in and out in an hour - perfect to get your grocery shopping done, or swing by after work to pick up dinner ingredients. They stopped that a couple of years ago, and they now charge for every second your car is in their garage. This means that if you want to shop for your groceries there, you have an additional fee that you do not have at a regular grocery store. They claim that they needed to charge to make money for improvements, but in two years I've yet to see any improvements - it's still a dirty, smelly garage which too often has one of the two elevators out of order.

I love the Market, but they shot themselves in the foot with this one.

[onedaylingers]

An article from today's Seattle Post-Intelligencer about the Future of Pike Place Market discusses concerns common to many markets.  Among these are:

- balancing role as tourist destination and serving local residents

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I know when I first moved to Melbourne, Australia, I was only shopping in the 'tourist' parts of the Queen Victoria Market. These were the first two sheds off the cooked food/deli sections, where prices are a good 30% - 50% above the rest of the market, and hours are more 'tourist friendly'. It was only after a couple of months that I realised there were more sheds located behind the central parking lot, and these were where the locals shopped.

Because public transport is very well developed, and it's a stone's throw from universities and the CBD, you see plenty of people lugging bags of produce or pushing laden personal shopping carts onto trams and trains. Oh, and it also helps that anything you can get at market is guaranteed to be at least 40% cheaper than at the supermarkets, and of way better quality. I was surprised to see farmers' market produce is pricier than in supermarkets in the US!

[Busboy]

Other public markets in largely tourist zones -- Boston's Quincy Market is a prime example -- eventually all but abandoned their role as sources for fresh food because the customers found it too inconvenient to go there to buy it.  And as the RTM's own careful balancing act makes clear, it's not always easy to cater to both markets where both are sizable, as they are at the RTM, which sits under a large convention hall.

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Note, however,that in Boston they do the very smart thing of mounting the Haymarket, full of fresh vegetables and fruits, right next door to the Quincy Market. On my last couple of trips to Boston I've only been through the Haymarket as it was being broken down (there are a few permanent shops, but it's mostly temporary stalls) so maybe someone else can comment on the breakdown between local farmers and vendors who simply pick up produce at the wholesaler to sell.

[rlibkind]

. . . I was surprised to see farmers' market produce is pricier than in supermarkets in  the US!

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Not necessarily. The produce stands at Philadelphia's Reading Terminal Market regularly underprice supermarkets, usually with better quality. Now, during the growing season some individual farmers also sell at the RTM, and their prices can be higher than a supermarket's but the quality is way, way better, and the lettuce hasn't traveled the breadth of the continent to reach you. In the case of one RTM non-farmer produce stand (Iovine Brothers), which sells fruits and vegetables year-round and purchases most of its supplies through traditional wholesale channels, it also has contract growing arrangements with a local farm during the season, and those products are always sold below supermarket prices (but at better quality).

The roadside farm stands I patronize appear to price competitively with supermarkets (sometimes underprice supermarkets) with generally superior product.

[rancho_gordo]

As a war-torn veteran, I can say that in general, the public wants, or insists on, lots of pretty, fresh, colorful vegetables to look at and then goes and buys prepared foods. There's a small faction that actually cooks and wants vegetables but it's surprisingly small. And now every chamber of commerce wants a farmers market so attendence is down across the board because there are so few and the grower has to go to more markets to make less money. And then people bitch about the price (which adds scandalous pennies per serving) or complain that the market is too touristy and in the case of San Francisco, head to the Civic Center market which is so much more "real" and "cheap" but in fact is mostly supplied by "farmers" who buy their vegetables from the produce mart.

I'm not sure what the answer is but the whole thing is in a new era that no one has quite figured out. That Andy and Julia from Mariquita have pulled out is not a good omen!

[hathor]

As a war-torn veteran, I can say that in general, the public wants, or insists on, lots of pretty, fresh, colorful vegetables to look at and then goes and buys prepared foods. There's a small faction that actually cooks and wants vegetables but it's surprisingly small. And now every chamber of commerce wants a farmers market so attendence is down across the board because there are so few and the grower has to go to more markets to make less money. And then people bitch about the price (which adds scandalous pennies per serving) or complain that the market is too touristy and in the case of San Francisco, head to the Civic Center market which is so much more "real" and "cheap" but in fact is mostly supplied by "farmers" who buy their vegetables from the produce mart.

I'm not sure what the answer is but the whole thing is in a new era that no one has quite figured out. That Andy and Julia from Mariquita have pulled out is not a good omen!

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Oh God. That is so depressing. It just makes me want to bang my head on the desk. Repeatedly.

Obesity. Prepared Foods. Could there be any connection??

When did we get so lazy.....?

[MarketStEl]

As a war-torn veteran, I can say that in general, the public wants, or insists on, lots of pretty, fresh, colorful vegetables to look at and then goes and buys prepared foods. There's a small faction that actually cooks and wants vegetables but it's surprisingly small. And now every chamber of commerce wants a farmers market so attendence is down across the board because there are so few and the grower has to go to more markets to make less money. And then people bitch about the price (which adds scandalous pennies per serving) or complain that the market is too touristy and in the case of San Francisco, head to the Civic Center market which is so much more "real" and "cheap" but in fact is mostly supplied by "farmers" who buy their vegetables from the produce mart.

I'm not sure what the answer is but the whole thing is in a new era that no one has quite figured out. That Andy and Julia from Mariquita have pulled out is not a good omen!

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Oh God. That is so depressing. It just makes me want to bang my head on the desk. Repeatedly.

Obesity. Prepared Foods. Could there be any connection??

When did we get so lazy.....?

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The funny thing is, over the past year or so, the portion of my food bill that goes to fresh produce has gone up, and all of the increase gets spent at the RTM.

I've discovered that with decent refrigeration, you can buy good quality fresh produce a few days before you plan to use or cook it, thus enjoying both the convenience of buying a week's worth of food in a single trip and the superior quality and results of using fresh produce.

There could be a connection indeed, but you probably will not see anything in the press making the connection explicitly. Too many large interests at stake.

BTW, my impression after visiting Pike Place Market is that it's as much arts and crafts as fresh food, but:

--the Pike Place Market is actually several buildings, not all commonly owned, that extend over about four city blocks and down three levels from Pike Place itself, which leaves lots of room for many different merchants,

--the market's requirement for the craftspeople matches that of the food vendors, namely, the objects they sell have to be their own (i.e., no middlemen), and

--the fresh food purveyors who do business there are all uniformly excellent.

Still, I would worry that the tourists who come to watch the guys throw fish might be altering the market's balance -- which is delicate, signs of popularity notwithstanding.

[rlibkind]

The May 2007 issue of The Atlantic has an interesting article about Eataly in Turn, Italy. It's essentially a Slow Foods supermarket. Indeed, the Slow Foods movement is a consultant to the market's operator.

On-line reading is only available to subscribers, but it's worth picking up a hard copy or visiting the library to read. But here's a very brief quote from the article to whet your appetite:

The emphasis on local and artisanal producers, education, affordable prices, a lightened environmental footprint, and sheer fun makes Eataly a persuasive model for the supermarket of the future—one that is sure to be widely copied around the world. The question is whether Eataly will bite the hands of the people feeding it, the people it says it wants to help: Slow Food, which is the arbiter and moral center of today’s food culture, and the artisans themselves.

[docsconz]

The May 2007 issue of The Atlantic has an interesting article about Eataly in Turn, Italy. It's  essentially a Slow Foods supermarket. Indeed, the Slow Foods movement is a consultant to the market's operator.

On-line reading is only available to subscribers, but it's worth picking up a hard copy or visiting the library to read. But here's a very brief quote from the article to whet your appetite:

The emphasis on local and artisanal producers, education, affordable prices, a lightened environmental footprint, and sheer fun makes Eataly a persuasive model for the supermarket of the future—one that is sure to be widely copied around the world. The question is whether Eataly will bite the hands of the people feeding it, the people it says it wants to help: Slow Food, which is the arbiter and moral center of today’s food culture, and the artisans themselves.

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Why is there a question of Eataly "biting the hands of people feeding it?"

[rlibkind]

Why is there a question of Eataly "biting the hands of people feeding it?"

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A much better explanation is within the article but here goes:

As Eataly succeeds, it will need more and more product. In their attempt to provide that product, the small farmers will get bigger and/or not put as much TLC into their product. If a farmer invests to get bigger, he risks losing the business if a cheaper competitor arrives. The counter-argument: if small producers "don't seize the chance to grow, when can they?".

As I said, an interesting and thought-provoking read.

[johnnyd]

Portland, Maine had a downtown Public Market that was subsidized by a philanthropic foundation from 1998 to 2006. (see photos here)

From New York Times article 4/11/07:

The old market’s sale last August and the steady departure of vendors until its formal closing in January stirred passions throughout the city. Downtown workers and weekend shoppers from the suburbs loved the old market’s homegrown vendors and special events.

But vendors paid less than $20 a square foot to rent space in a market that cost the foundation as much as $75 a square foot, said Morris Fischer, president of CB Richard Ellis-the Boulos Company, which represented Guggenheim Real Estate, the New York investment firm that bought the market last August.

“Libra could not get it to a break-even point,” Mr. Fischer said. “Libra supported it for a long time hoping they could make sense of it. They came to the conclusion they couldn’t do it any longer. Others who looked at it said the same thing.”

Since then, a local engineer bought and renovated a much smaller space once he heard four of the vendors were intent on opening another Public Market in the downtown area.

Most days, a steady stream of customers follow their noses, thirst and appetites into the building, home of the new Public Market House, where in a narrow corridor flanked by vendors they can buy fresh-cut flowers, cheese from Maine farms, a sandwich on fresh-baked bread and beer from state microbreweries.

The seven-month-old market occupies the basement and first floor of the partly renovated four-story building at the heart of downtown, which was last home to a failing surplus store.

The move has been tough on the vendors, and the weather around here in winter is a tad iffy, but a momentum is building here: There is talk of outfitting a second floor for four more vendors.

[russ parsons]

it's obviously not news that the farmers market movement is facing growing pains. here's my analysis from this morning:

growing pains

[hathor]

Thoughtful analysis, Russ.

I keep going back to the European model, and trying to draw comparisons and parallels.

One thing that I hadn't focused on was the farmer at the farmer's market. By and large, in central Italy, the actual farmer is not present at the market. The whole market business is run by market 'specialists', meaning that is their sole job: to collect the produce and bring it to the various markets.

The consumer's shopping experience is not diminished by this. The market man has a steady and ongoing relationship with the actual farmers, so the market man is just an extension of the farmer.

It's not a bad thing, it's just a little different.

And how important is it to actually have the farmer there if they are buying lavender bath salts? The theme that I'm hearing is that people look at the pretty vegetables, but buy the prepared stuff.

But, is it a hard reality that the profit margins are so slim, that the farmer can't outsource to a market person?

Another question comes to mind: what is the impact of climate and growing seasons on a nationwide level? What happens in the Northeast where the growing season is so much shorter? I know there are successful CSA's in the NY area, but in the winter, all you are going to get is roots and apples.

This is certainly a multi-faceted dilemma.

And while we are talking about challenges, how do we get people to buy and cook more produce? Its a lot healthier than buying ready made cookies at the farmer's market. Now, that would be a seismic shift in American's consciousness, wouldn't it?

[russ parsons]

this is certainly a fascinating time to be talking about agriculture. i think a lot of the things you're talking about Judith are already happening. the most important is that an avenue has been opened up by farmers markets that lets farmers earn more money for growing better products. this was something that was not available in the recent past. I think we'll see some farmers begin to brand their produce at retail--so you'll know that when you're buying Zuckerman's jumbo asparagus (to use a seasonally appropriate example), that it means something different than just the regular asparagus that will probably also be offered at a lower price. i also think that high-end groceries like whole foods and (in my neck of the woods) bristol farms and gelson's also hold a lot of promise because they are in ideal positions to grow into the middleman role as produce selector--they already have wine buyers, cheese buyers, meat buyers ... why not someone who specializes in sourcing outstanding produce?

the question inevitably arises that this will be introducing a two-tier market for produce--great stuff at a higher price and not-so-great stuff at a lesser price. i'm afraid there's no way around that. it costs money and it takes talent to grow great produce and the people who are willing to invest both deserve an appropriate return. besides, great produce--even at twice the price of regular--is still pretty affordable as luxuries go.

[Tess]

The consumer's shopping experience is not diminished by this.  The market man has a steady and ongoing relationship with the actual farmers, so the market man is just an extension of the farmer.

It's not a bad thing, it's just a little different.

And how important is it to actually have the farmer there if they are buying lavender bath salts? The theme that I'm hearing is that people look at the pretty vegetables, but buy the prepared stuff.

Here in Chicago, with an admittedly short season for most markets, I find that as a consumer having the farmer there is really helpful. They'll tell me when a crop will be at its peak and stuff like that. Sure, middlemen may know some of those things but I always feel it's more accurate coming from the farmer, plus they know exactly what they plan to sell in the following weeks. When I was buying sour cherries last summer, one farmer told me he'd be selling bags of them pitted and frozen the following week. I made a point of being back there to get some. Also, I try not to be a pain in the butt, but I feel as if telling the person who used to sell (eg) currants that I wish they would again might factor into their decision, at least if enough people say something.

[SuzySushi]

this is certainly a fascinating time to be talking about agriculture. i think a lot of the things you're talking about Judith are already happening. the most important is that an avenue has been opened up by farmers markets that lets farmers earn more money for growing better products. this was something that was not available in the recent past. I think we'll see some farmers begin to brand their produce at retail--so you'll know that when you're buying Zuckerman's jumbo asparagus (to use a seasonally appropriate example), that it means something different than just the regular asparagus that will probably also be offered at a lower price. i also think that high-end groceries like whole foods and (in my neck of the woods) bristol farms and gelson's also hold a lot of promise because they are in ideal positions to grow into the middleman role as produce selector--they already have wine buyers, cheese buyers, meat buyers ... why not someone who specializes in sourcing outstanding produce?

the question inevitably arises that this will be introducing a two-tier market for produce--great stuff at a higher price and not-so-great stuff at a lesser price. i'm afraid there's no way around that. it costs money and it takes talent to grow great produce and the people who are willing to invest both deserve an appropriate return. besides, great produce--even at twice the price of regular--is still pretty affordable as luxuries go.

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Great article, Russ, and your comments are very cogent and timely. As we speak, I'm finishing up a market research report on fresh & local foods (exact title yet to be determined by the publisher) and their marketing possibilities for retailers, foodservice providers, and food marketers--and farmers, farmers' markets, and CSAs are very much a part of the equation. However, for retailers, foodservice, and marketers, farm-fresh foods are just another marketing angle. Farmers have to make a living at it!

[russ parsons]

thanks suzy, i would love to read your paper. and while i would never argue that farmers don't need to have a profit motive, i would do the same for retailers as well. it's easy to see things as "marketing angles," but if i take a hard look at most of the organic farmers i know, that's exactly what they're doing--they think a) their customers demand it; or b) they can get some extra money for it.

retail has a long and sorry history in food for most of the 20th century, but i do believe that that is what will finally pull us out, and we've got to allow them as well the opportunity to make some money by doing good work (most groceries operate on 1 to 2% profit margins).