The Sourdough Starter Topic

[cakewalk]

Kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe

 

This from Peter Reinhart: "Some bakers prefer to work exclusively with firm starters . . . This is not only easy to transport and handle ... but also makes a very sour bread, for those who like it extra sour. Acetic bacteria prefer the denser, less-aerated environment of the firm starter; lactic bacteria prefer the wetter sponge of the barm method." 

ETA - make it the way you like it. If the science tells you that you "shouldn't" like it, so what?

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by cakewalk
More to say (log)

[paulraphael]

10 hours ago, cakewalk said:

If the science tells you that you "shouldn't" like it, so what?

 

I don't think science has an opinion, but French bakers are pretty vocal ...

 

Re: SF sourdough, I understand various ways of getting a dough more sour; just not the techniques for doing so that don't also inhibit the yeast.

[pastryani]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 6:34 AM, cakewalk said:

Kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe

 

This from Peter Reinhart: "Some bakers prefer to work exclusively with firm starters . . . This is not only easy to transport and handle ... but also makes a very sour bread, for those who like it extra sour. Acetic bacteria prefer the denser, less-aerated environment of the firm starter; lactic bacteria prefer the wetter sponge of the barm method." 

ETA - make it the way you like it. If the science tells you that you "shouldn't" like it, so what?

 

 

 

Wow thanks for all the info everyone.  I think I'll stick to flour and water (which I've been doing with rye, ww, and white), but was contemplating an experimental dairy starter for comparison.

 

For the extra tangy sourdough bread recipe - this uses citric acid for that sour flavor which I can't help but think is "cheating" (though it sounds delicious and I'll probably end up trying it).   I'd like to get the sour flavor from the starter alone, but let's see how it turns out.  The mostly rye starter was pretty active on Day 3 and then I added white to it for feedings and it seems to have slowed down. 

 

[cakewalk]

The KAF "basic" extra tangy is just flour and water. They add a note saying if you want super duper extra tangy (paraphrasing) then use citric acid, which us what paulraphael suggested above. I never used the citric acid, mostly because I didn't have any. It's not cheating, although I understand the feeling. But you want to make bread that you like best. If citric acid gives you that, then I'd say take it. 

[paulraphael]

11 hours ago, cakewalk said:

The KAF "basic" extra tangy is just flour and water. They add a note saying if you want super duper extra tangy (paraphrasing) then use citric acid, which us what paulraphael suggested above. I never used the citric acid, mostly because I didn't have any. It's not cheating, although I understand the feeling. But you want to make bread that you like best. If citric acid gives you that, then I'd say take it. 

 

Maybe someone else suggested it? I don't have any experience with adding acids to bread / starter. Not opposed to it, just trying to learn the bounds of the minimalist processes before thinking about all that.

[cakewalk]

23 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

 

Maybe someone else suggested it? I don't have any experience with adding acids to bread / starter. Not opposed to it, just trying to learn the bounds of the minimalist processes before thinking about all that.

You mention somewhere above that the way to get extra tangy bread is to add stuff to the dough, not through manipulating the starter with dairy or fruit products. You didn't mention citric acid specifically. I'm basically saying that the KAF suggestion to add citric acid for an extra tangy loaf is in agreement with what you mentioned; there's a limit to how tangy the starter itself can make the dough. (At least that's what I think you're saying.) 

[paulraphael]

23 hours ago, cakewalk said:

You mention somewhere above that the way to get extra tangy bread is to add stuff to the dough, not through manipulating the starter with dairy or fruit products. 

 

That was Teonzo's comment. He seems to know about how to do this.

[Soupcon]

I should have known that there was a topic on sourdough starters and posted my yesterday's post in the bread topic here. I need help please!!! I have never made nor worked with sourdough, high hydration doughs or made a starter before but am willing to learn. I made all my own bread and buns for a long period of time but stopped for a number of reasons. I have just found out that you can make sourdough whole wheat bread as I am presently buying exactly this from a small excellent bakery not far from where I live. However, I would like to make my own. I am on my 4th attempt at making a starter with success this time and today am 5 days into the process. Yesterday's starter for the first time (of any of my starter attempts) actually rose to double in bulk in about 12 hours and then overnight fell back to about half way of the rise by this morning. This morning it smelled a little alcoholic so I assume I should have fed it last night? or not?. Also the starter this morning for the first time was very "frothy" on top even though it had lost some of it's rise and appeared to be well dispersed with tiny gas bubbles. Do I wait for another 24 hours to feed again or feed more frequently now is my question?

[Smithy]

I'm no expert on the topic, but I've had a sourdough starter going and useful for over 3 years now, thanks to this topic. I'll throw out my guesses, and hope the experts chime in! If the starter smells a little too sour (I think that's what the alcohol-y smell is about) then it probably wants feeding more frequently.  I think that when I got mine going it rose to double, then collapsed, as you note, and I'd feed it again.  I don't think you'll hurt it if you feed it too frequently, but it may not be as sour as you'd like.
 

As I recall - remember, this is over 3 years ago - my starter gave off wild odors and was not predictable in its rise and fall until I'd had it going for a couple of weeks; then it stabilized.  I can tell you for sure that my starter has occasionally started to die: given off a lot of free liquid ("hooch") and sat there looking flaccid, with no bubbles.  When that happened I gave it twice the usual feeder, and it revived.  So, for instance, if my starter was neglected and looking hoochey, I used 50g starter, 100g water and 100g flour, and did it again the next day or three until it recovered.  These days it's pretty happy with a ratio of 1 part starter to 1 part water and 1 part water. I'm keeping it in the refrigerator and feeding it weekly.

 

By the way: since your starter is doubling in size after you feed it, I wonder whether it's ready to use in baking.  I've read somewhere that when you refresh the starter in preparation for baking, the time to begin mixing the dough is when it's doubled in size.

 

I hope the pros chime in!

[Soupcon]

Thank you for your post Smithy.

From what I have read I am not sure whether or not it is ready at this stage to use for baking or to wait a little longer.

The starter which is not appearing to grow past the doubled state which it reached 3 hours ago is still bubbling but not growing and smells slightly sour. So I guess that all is well but am still not sure whether or not to go feed it again tonight or wait until tomorrow until the 24 hour period is up and then feed again.

[Smithy]

40 minutes ago, Soupcon said:

Thank you for your post Smithy.

From what I have read I am not sure whether or not it is ready at this stage to use for baking or to wait a little longer.

The starter which is not appearing to grow past the doubled state which it reached 3 hours ago is still bubbling but not growing and smells slightly sour. So I guess that all is well but am still not sure whether or not to go feed it again tonight or wait until tomorrow until the 24 hour period is up and then feed again.

 

Well, I'm afraid I don't the answer to the question of "feed now or wait until tomorrow" either.  Do you have enough that you can split the starter, feed half and leave the other half alone?  I did a lot of that sort of thing when I was establishing mine.  Can't find my notes, though (sorry) so I can't tell you to what degree any of it mattered.

[cakewalk]

Agree with Smithy about splitting the starter in half. And then in half again! It lets you try different things. After you feed your starter are you refrigerating it? Or letting it sit at room temperature? Also, are you starting a whole wheat starter? It's much easier to get a starter going with regular bread flour (or rye flour, that usually works best), and then after it's going well to split it in half and start feeding one half with the flour you eventually want to bake your bread with. Keep the bread flour starter going as well. When I first started playing around with starters I had bread flour, rye flour, and whole wheat flour starters. It was like feeding a baby. Or three. Now I just maintain one bread flour starter. I use it for whatever bread I'm making. If I want a whole grain bread I'll split the starter in half, then start feeding half with WW flour until it's ready. Actually sometimes I don't even bother with that. I'll use the bread flour starter as-is and just add WW flour as I mix the dough. I'm probably a lot less precise about this stuff than you're trying to be. But my bread is pretty good, no complaints. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by cakewalk
punkchooayshun (log)

[DianaM]

Hi Soupcon, 

 

When your starter has reached maximum volume (at least double) it is ready for feeding. So yes, I think you should go on a 12-hour feeding routine at this point. 

 

I typically feed mine every 12 hours, I noticed it gives me the best breads as compared to 24h feedings. 

I use a ratio of 1:4:4 (starter : water : flour) and in the summer even 1:5:5, and my standard is 5 g starter to 20 g water and flour respectively. At this feeding schedule and ratio, it triples in volume in 6-8 hours depending on ambient temp. 

 

I'd wait a few more days before baking with it. It is usually ready for use after cca 7 days, but if you can wait a few more than that, all the better. Use this time to observe your starter's rise so that you have fewer surprises (in terms of rising times) when you start baking with it. 

 

 

 

 

[cakewalk]

46 minutes ago, DianaM said:

I typically feed mine every 12 hours, I noticed it gives me the best breads as compared to 24h feedings. 

I use a ratio of 1:4:4 (starter : water : flour) and in the summer even 1:5:5, and my standard is 5 g starter to 20 g water and flour respectively. At this feeding schedule and ratio, it triples in volume in 6-8 hours depending on ambient temp.

You feed your starter at those ratios every 12 hours? I don't understand the need for that. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by cakewalk
typo (log)

[rustwood]

My digital scale recently went on the fritz.  While I was waiting for a replacement I had to maintain my starter via volume measures instead of by weight.  I then got lazier and switched to doing it by eye.  I remove what seems to be about 2/3 of the starter, dump in a small scoop of flour, then add water until it has the right consistency.  My starter is at least as healthy as it has ever been.  The starter I remove usually gets the same treatment, sits on the counter overnight and is used to make a couple of crumpets in the morning.  They are also as good or better than ever.

 

Now that I have a scale again, I will weigh out the starter if I am going to use it for bread, but I am inclined to stick with the lazy method for maintaining it.  Once again it has occurred to me that people on the frontier who routinely relied on starter almost certainly didn't maintain it by weight and probably didn't spend a lot of time babying it.

[DianaM]

13 hours ago, cakewalk said:

You feed your starter at those ratios every 12 hours? I don't understand the need for that. 

 

 

I do it to maintain an increased rate of fermentation and to minimize the window when the culture is in a deflated, sub-optimal state. During that time, the acids build up and give the starter an alcoholic and acetic punch which I personally dislike (Smithy aptly called it "hoochy"). These flavours also transfer to the finished bread, and neither are flavours I am to achieve in the finished loaf. I'm going for a subtle lactic tang, sweetness and nuttiness from the whole grains, a toasted note from seeds etc. 

 

According to Tartine no.3, "two days before you want to make bread, feed the matured starter twice daily, once in the morning and once in the evening, to increase fermentation activity." My favourite author, Sarah Owens in her excellent Sourdough, advises the same for people who bake bread frequently. Since I bake bread almost every 2 days (yeah I know it's inefficient but I love it!), that works out to a continuous 12h schedule, which is what I do. You could, of course, achieve the same result with a 24h feeding schedule provided you reduce the inoculation rate (so use maybe a 1:8:8 ratio), but I have found that the 12h routine gives me the best flavour. 

 

When I left the country for a week, I did put it in the fridge. And when circumstances prevent me from baking bread for a week, then I feed on a 24h schedule (I never did that in the first few months of tending to my starter, though). Occasionally, I will get lazy too and eyeball a feed or two. But regularly, I do what I described above: 12h, 1:4:4. 

 

As for the frontier, I am sure they had lots to worry about besides the optimal fermentation of their starter (rustwood, you got me researching the stories of frontier settlement doctors, thank you for that! ). We live a life of privilege, and for me, tending to a lump of flour is, luckily, no big feat, even if I do have to employ a scale. 

 

 

 

[cakewalk]

Interesting, thanks for the explanation. I also increase feeding just before I'm about to bake, but for the lulls in between the starter just sits in the fridge and collects hootch. You bake much more often than I do. I like bread that is more, rather than less, tangy, so frequent feedings wouldn't give me that. I never heard of Sarah Owens, so thanks for that reference, I just might break my vow of No More Cookbooks! (I have broken it so many times already, what's once more?)

 

[Soupcon]

Thankyou DianaM and cakewalk so much.

I divided the starter into two batches last night and fed them and put one in the fridge and left one out on the counter.  The one in the fridge is in hibernation as I expected. The one on the counter was doubled in bulk by this morning so it looks like I have made a good starter. Now I will feed it every 8 to 12 hours for a few days and then bake with it. I will keep the one in the fridge in hibernation for a while and then revive it, stablise it and then bake with it. BTY the starter is whole wheat. My goal is actually to learn how to and make my own starters, learn how to bake with them and then purchase Red Fife in bulk for baking bread as I love sourdough whole wheat bread. Thanks again for your advice and support.

 

[Smithy]

@Soupcon, how is it going?  I doubt I'm the only one interested in updates.

 

I refreshed my starter yesterday.  After a few hours it had bubbles dispersed through the entire mix.  I've learned to interpret this as a sign of a healthy, lively starter.

 

 

 

[Soupcon]

Updates? Sure. I am glad you asked.

The one on the counter smelled of nail polish remover. I can't for the life of me figure out what would cause so it must be some strange bacteria from somewhere.... either in the flour or picked up in the house. I have just pitched it as I can's seem to get the smell to go away even after a few refreshments.

The one in the fridge is still in hibernation. I am not sure what to do with that one. Any suggestions?

[Smithy]

Hmm, I don't have any good ideas for what caused that, much less how to avoid it.  Maybe you should try feeding the refrigerated starter on a different flour? Do everything else the same, so you're only changing one variable (as far as you know). Keep in mind that the amount of starter in a loaf is relatively small; starter with all-purpose flour won't much dilute the purity of a whole-wheat loaf.  Right now you're trying to work out why one half of the batch went off, and trying to keep the other half healthy.

[Soupcon]

I am not sure the same bacteria might not also be in the refrigerated starter as well as they both came from the same base. I know the hazard of whole wheat sourdough is that they have a tendency to become tooo sour but I don't think it is that. OTOH it may just be that. I am not sure what an all whole wheat starter should smell like. Any ideas. I know that a starter made with unbleached bread flour should not smell like nail polish remover but I am not sure what a whole wheat starter should smell like. Perhaps I have bitten off more than I can chew and should back up and start life again in the sourdough world at least with an unbleached white bread flour base. Just navel gazing at the minute. 

[cakewalk]

17 minutes ago, Soupcon said:

Updates? Sure. I am glad you asked.

The one on the counter smelled of nail polish remover. I can't for the life of me figure out what would cause so it must be some strange bacteria from somewhere.... either in the flour or picked up in the house. I have just pitched it as I can's seem to get the smell to go away even after a few refreshments.

The one in the fridge is still in hibernation. I am not sure what to do with that one. Any suggestions?

https://sourdough.com/forum/noob-my-starter-smells-nail-polish-remover

 

That's a common problem. If you haven't thrown it out yet, try building it up again with a very small amount of the starter. 

[Smithy]

Nice site, @cakewalk.  Thanks for the link!

[Soupcon]

20 minutes ago, Smithy said:

Hmm, I don't have any good ideas for what caused that, much less how to avoid it.  Maybe you should try feeding the refrigerated starter on a different flour? Do everything else the same, so you're only changing one variable (as far as you know). Keep in mind that the amount of starter in a loaf is relatively small; starter with all-purpose flour won't much dilute the purity of a whole-wheat loaf.  Right now you're trying to work out why one half of the batch went off, and trying to keep the other half healthy.

 

Thank you for reminding me that I don't need a large amount of starter to make a loaf of bread. Bingo. You are right. I will keep the starter in the fridge going and see what happens with that starter AND start a new one with whole wheat and then feed it with unbleached white when it (assumption here) becomes active.