The Sourdough Starter Topic

[ElsieD]

Chelseabun, I hope you will try again.

[Chelseabun]

Chelseabun, I hope you will try again.

Thank you. That is very nice of you to say that.

 

I dont know why the ferment was so weak.  It was a very lovely starter apart from that.   It had the 'right' smell about it.  A loaf made from it would have been very nice.  But it would have struggled to produce enough CO2 as it was.  You know, it was organic flour from my local windmill.  I was expecting it to work. 

 

I will give it another go though

Edited October 16, 2014 by Chelseabun (log)

[ElsieD]

Thank you. That is very nice of you to say that.

I dont know why the ferment was so weak. It was a very lovely starter apart from that. It had the 'right' smell about it. A loaf made from it would have been very nice. But it would have struggled to produce enough CO2 as it was. You know, it was organic flour from my local windmill. I was expecting it to work.

I will give it another go though

Disappointing, isn't it? I was pretty happy with my first batch until, as we say here, it went south. As Mick suggested, I should have stuck with that batch. No reason why I couldn't have done that AND started a new one. I won't be as quick to toss this batch out. Looking forward to hearing how yours goes. Edited October 16, 2014 by ElsieD (log)

[Chelseabun]

Disappointing, isn't it? I was pretty happy with my first batch until, as we say here, it went south. As Mick suggested, I should have stuck with that batch. No reason why I couldn't have done that AND started a new one. I won't be as quick to toss this batch out. Looking forward to hearing how yours goes.

Yeast multiplies fairly quickly.  I have made cider and wine from wild yeast before.  Just from intuition, it just looked like it was being inhibitted somehow.  I am viewing it as a success though and at least i can say that i was inspired enough by this thread to try a sourdough starter myself. 

 

We say 'went south' too.  We have a lovely expression (meaning gone south): 'gone pear shaped'!

[Smithy]

I agree with Cakewalk's sentiments and thank Mick for this topic. Without it, I would never have even attempted this. So I still have my second batch and will be patient with it. I figure as long as it has some bubbles on the surface it must still be a bit alive. Before Mick posted his latest, I was going to turf it but my husband said, why don't you give it a pinch of sugar and see what happens? So, that is what I did. I probably shouldn't have, but there you go. Later on I threw out half of it and fed it again. I did not add any yeast as I had threatened to do earlier. I shall proceed as recommend - throw out half, then feed with 50 gms. Each water and flour on a daily basis.

Nancy, did yours on the right collapse after it doubled? You have some nice bubbles going there.

Elsie

It hasn't collapsed, but it has a decided stratification as of today: lots of bubbles on the top (whitish) layer, a thin layer of dark clear orange/yellow liquid, then a less bubbly (whitish) mass below. I haven't stirred to mix it yet, and it looks like this:

(The batch on the left is the other half of the starter, noted before, fed with KA AP flour that began the batch.)

[pbear]

I've not posted in the thread because I didn't want to discourage folks from trying Mick's method, but now that the disappointments are coming in, I should like to point out the simple flour-and-water starter is rather tricky.  Indeed, I've never been able make it work, including two attempts since reading about Mick's adventures.  Nor are we alone.  Debra Wink wrote an interesting article, later posted to The Fresh Loaf, reporting on similar experiences of folks on that board.  Mind, I'm not endorsing the pineapple juice solution, as it hasn't worked for me either.  Just noting that starting a starter is tricky.*  Frankly, the simpler solution is to get an established culture from someone else or to buy one, e.g., from Sourdoughs International.

 

* Incidentally, although I don't teach classes or have thirty clients, I used to do a lot of sourdough baking.  The method by which I cultivated a starter then shall remain nameless, in part out of deference to Mick's desire that the thread stay focused on the flour-and-water method and in part because it's no less tricky.  But I was able to replicate it over the past two weeks (simultaneous with the second trial mentioned above), which gives me confidence that my failures with flour-and-water weren't due to lack of skill, bad flour or poor water.

[patti_h]

Mick, I don't feel like this thread has disintegrated- look how many people you have trying out sourdough as a result of your writing! I think all the posts here, from you and others, have been very encouraging to us sourdough newbies to just go ahead and mix flour and water and see what happens, whether it is white flour or rye. I have in the past tried the method using grapes from my yard ( Nancy Silverton) and the raisin water method (Peter Reinhart) and neither worked out for me. I'm traveling to my parents' house today, and I have my scale & starter with me because right now I have a great smelling and active starter and I'm going to keep it that way. To me, you have had wonderful success with this thread! I thank you for all the advice you have given because I think this thread has encouraged me to really work on my bread baking.

[bethesdabakers]

Bit short of time right now - but:

 

Hey People - I'm a bit of an old bruiser. I specialise on being on the wrong side of the argument and upsetting people. No need for anyone to apologise for anything. I'm really pleased that people have got involved..

 

I'm just concerned to get over my point of view before the thread does explode into a multiplicity of ideas. I'm just a bit slow about doing it.

 

Mick

[ElsieD]

Just refreshed my starter. Not seeing much action but there are some small bubbles on the surface so will stick with it.

[ElsieD]

I just checked my starter and there are way more bubbles on the top than I have seen at any time during the last few days. Hope springs eternal!

[Smithy]

Nancy, did yours on the right collapse after it doubled? You have some nice bubbles going there.

Elsie

Sorry, Elsie - I didn't see this question earlier. I haven't seen a collapse yet.

I have a question about the 'hooch'. In my stratified starter the hooch was a layer in the middle of the starter. I think I stirred the whole thing to get it well mixed before discarding some and feeding the rest. So far it seems to have survived. What would the experts have done?

There doesn't seem to be much difference in activity between the two. The one on the left has been fed only organic flour until last night, when I ran out. There is quite a tangy aroma coming from both of them.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Smithy
Added photo and comment (log)

[ElsieD]

Sorry, Elsie - I didn't see this question earlier. I haven't seen a collapse yet.

I have a question about the 'hooch'. In my stratified starter the hooch was a layer in the middle of the starter. I think I stirred the whole thing to get it well mixed before discarding some and feeding the rest. So far it seems to have survived. What would the experts have done?

IMG_20141017_163346.jpg

There doesn't seem to be much difference in activity between the two. The one on the left has been fed only organic flour until last night, when I ran out. There is quite a tangy aroma coming from both of them.

To my untrained eye, that looks like a nice starter you have going. Can you post a side shot?

[Smithy]

This is at least 12 hours later, because I had to wait for better light. The bubbles are mostly at the surface, but if you look closely you can see find bubbles in the interior.

[ElsieD]

Nancy, thanks for the pictures. This is my starter this morning. As you can see, my bubbles are very small and none are visible from the side. I plan on feeding it today and tomorrow and if it isn't a bit more lively I will likely conclude that it is not active enough and discard. Sigh.

 

Edited October 18, 2014 by Smithy
Member request (log)

[ElsieD]

I was on the Australian Thermomix forum and came upon this thread. I just read the whole thing and apart from the fact my eyes have glazed over, there is a ton of useful information in it. I am a lot more hopeful now that I can actually eventually, some time, make sourdough bread. I hope the rest of you who are trying to make sourdough find it useful.

http://www.forumthermomix.com/index.php?topic=11126.0

Edited to add: I had configured it to get the latest messages first so page 79 is actually page 1

Edited October 19, 2014 by ElsieD (log)

[bethesdabakers]

Elsie

 

The last photo you posted looked to me like a starter that had peaked and fallen back - but the photos are not at all clear. Why don't you try it and see if it makes bread?

 

I read the first couple of posts from your thermomix link. Putting your starter outside to catch airborne yeasts is a waste of time. The last thing I am is a scientist but yeasts live on surfaces i.e. the most likely source of yeast is on the substance that predominates in the mixture - the flour you are using.

 

As for making a starter from flour and water being tricky - tricky as compared with what? You mean we don't do things because they are "tricky"? Getting a starter established is the main hurdle to making sourdough - once you've succeeded you have it for life if you give it minimal care. So maybe it's worth a little trickiness.

 

Next up - I tell a joke ....

[ElsieD]

Elsie

 

The last photo you posted looked to me like a starter that had peaked and fallen back - but the photos are not at all clear. Why don't you try it and see if it makes bread?

 

I read the first couple of posts from your thermomix link. Putting your starter outside to catch airborne yeasts is a waste of time. The last thing I am is a scientist but yeasts live on surfaces i.e. the most likely source of yeast is on the substance that predominates in the mixture - the flour you are using.

 

As for making a starter from flour and water being tricky - tricky as compared with what? You mean we don't do things because they are "tricky"? Getting a starter established is the main hurdle to making sourdough - once you've succeeded you have it for life if you give it minimal care. So maybe it's worth a little trickiness.

 

Next up - I tell a joke ....

Since this post is addressed to me, I just want to clarify something. Nowhere did I say that making a starter was "tricky" and I don"'t need a lecture, not even a mini lecture, on whether I resist doing things because they are "tricky". In my 68 years of life I have had to deal with a number of "tricky" things and have never shied away from them.

That said, the starter I made following your method sprung to life yesterday, it's eighth day. The link I posted contained a number of posts by people who thought, as I did, that their starter had died and were encouraged to keep tending it. It certainly encouraged me and I hoped by posting it that if others had trouble with theirs, that it would encourage them to stay with it. Next step: Bake some bread!

[bethesdabakers]

Really sorry, Elsie. "Tricky" was used by someone else and I wasn't careful enough with the way I phrased the post. You were the first person brave enough to give this thing a go. I'm amazed that it's only been eight days.That's pretty much the length of time I would have expected before it took off.

[ElsieD]

Not to worry, Mick.

Tomorrow I plan on baking bread. I am going to follow the method and timetable as per Mick. If I read the instructions right, I will feed it one more time tonight, put what I am saving in the fridge for future use and leave what I will be using on the counter. Now, I don't have any rye flour so I will be using a tea towel floured with white flour in a colander. I have a couple of questions and if they can be answered, I would appreciate it. After the 4 hour ferment will it have increased in size and if yes, what should I expect? Once it has been shaped and set to rise for 31/2 hours, will I expect it to be double in size? If the answer to that is yes, and it has not done so, should I let it rise longer? I know what to expect with regular bread but of course, but since this is my first time attempting sourdough, I really haven't a clue. I will post my results but in the meantime, here are a couple of pictures of my starter.

[Jaymes]

Just a thought for anyone wanting to begin their sourdough baking with something easy from the getgo.

When we first moved to Alaska, sometime during our first week, I was gifted with what I was told was a traditional gift for "cheechakos" (newcomers) some sourdough starter that supposedly dated back to the gold rush days.

And I made sourdough pancakes at least three times a week for the first year we lived there.

They were quick, easy, and much-loved by my family.

I didn't tackle bread until I felt like I knew what I was doing.

So if any of you would like to "start small," consider pancakes.

[Smithy]

Thanks for that, Jaymes.  This may sound silly, but how would one go about it?  I confess to only having ever made pancakes using Bisquik™, and possibly another mix sometime or other. 

[ElsieD]

Jaymes, I too am interested in the pancakes. I will have extra sourdough starter so would like to try it. Thank you.

[weinoo]

Mine isn't looking all that great at the moment. I will feed it shortly and if it doesn't look like something tomorrow I will likely discard it and give up. Or for a lark, I may just add in a bit of yeast to see what happens. I use bread flour and have been using tap water. Your post has me wondering if chlorine in the water is a problem here as well. Our water quality in this city is very good but they also use chlorine. I do have some Perrier so maybe I should try a third and final batch if this one doesn't turn out and use that as the water source?

Cyalexa, I went to the blog you mentioned and while the blogger talked about starter, I could not find how she said to go about starting one.

Mick, are you out there? Any hints?

 

Once I started using water that was dechlorinated, either using  spring water or filtered tap that I'd let sit out over night, my starters really perked up.

 

I've just refreshed a starter that was in the back on my fridge since last fall, basically. Looked disgusting, but I discarded all except a T or so, and started feeding it white flour and dechlorinated water, in a nice, clean jar.  3 days later - it's up and running.

[Jaymes]

Jaymes, I too am interested in the pancakes. I will have extra sourdough starter so would like to try it. Thank you.

You can Google sourdough pancakes and get recipes that are all basically the same, much like this, super easy:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sourdough-pancakes-recipe.html

My family got so accustomed to that sourdough flavor that, even now years later, when I make what they call "ordinary pancakes," they complain.

BTW, while we were up there, I made sourdough fruitcake, too.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Jaymes (log)

[bethesdabakers]

Hi Elsie

 

The second rise, the proof, is the crucial one. Judging the state of the dough by increase in volume is difficult unless it is in a narrow transparent container.

 

The dough will certainly expand during bulk fermentation, the first rise, but it is difficult to see if it's in a covered bowl or square dough box. Four hours should be plenty at room temperature (18-24C). The Dan Lepard method is to slash the surface and to look for gas bubbles.

 

Once you've shaped your dough and put it in a proving basket or equivalent you can test the dough by dipping your finger in flour, pressing it gently into the dough and watching how the depression behaves. If it shoots back quickly the dough is underproved. If the hollow doesn't move at all it's overproved. You want to find a point where it's still pushing but closing slowly. It's something you need to learn how to judge. Don't worry - there's a lot of latitude because sourdough works so slowly.