Baking 101

[Sugarella]

It's still only $44.90 US plus $7.50 for the AC adapter, plus a little for shipping.

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Aw CRAP. I paid $130 for mine at a wholesale restaurant supply several years ago, and that was with my discount too.

Thanks for the links.... I'm going to need another one eventually.

[miladyinsanity]

Question for Wendy or anyone else about the bleached flours though.... did I read somewhere that heavily bleached white flour actually has its proteins broken down by the bleaching process, or am I imagining that??

I personally use unbleached for everything but then I don't make chiffon or sponge cakes very often..... would there be an advantage to using this type of flour for these? Or for anything else for that matter?

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I believe all cake flours are bleached, for that protein thing and because it looks better.

[SweetSide]

Question for Wendy or anyone else about the bleached flours though.... did I read somewhere that heavily bleached white flour actually has its proteins broken down by the bleaching process, or am I imagining that??

I personally use unbleached for everything but then I don't make chiffon or sponge cakes very often..... would there be an advantage to using this type of flour for these? Or for anything else for that matter?

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I believe all cake flours are bleached, for that protein thing and because it looks better.

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Sugarella, I was the one who posted that chlorine bleached flour (cake flour is typically the only kind bleached with chlorine) have had their gluten weakened by the bleaching process. Bleaching of AP and bread flours have been done with benzoyl peroxide to whiten and mature the flour.

And to take it further, the bleaching with chlorine also oxidizes thae starch, allowing it to absorb water more quickly and easily, resulting in a moister product. Further, the chlorine leaves the starch slightly acidic which causes the batter to set faster and further reduces gluten development, resulting in moister (reduced baking time) and more tender (low gluten) cakes.

No, I'm not rattling that off from my head -- paraphrasing from some baking technology texts...

[Sugarella]

Sugarella, I was the one who posted that chlorine bleached flour (cake flour is typically the only kind bleached with chlorine) have had their gluten weakened by the bleaching process.  Bleaching of AP and bread flours have been done with benzoyl peroxide to whiten and mature the flour. 

And to take it further, the bleaching with chlorine also oxidizes thae starch, allowing it to absorb water more quickly and easily, resulting in a moister product.  Further, the chlorine leaves the starch slightly acidic which causes the batter to set faster and further reduces gluten development, resulting in moister (reduced baking time) and more tender (low gluten) cakes.

No, I'm not rattling that off from my head -- paraphrasing from some baking technology texts...

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Thanks for that. I know this is waaaaay beyond 101 but the thread seems to have gone that way. My fault probably! But I'll continue this here anyways....

So, Sweetside, I must ask.... did you mean bleached with benzoyl peroxide or did you mean hydrogen perozide!?

I've always assumed flour was bleached with chlorine, which is why I've always used unbleached. But if it's done with h.p. then that's not so bad. I do know a bleached flour tastes different than unbleached..... is the tradeoff of taste worth it to get that moister crumb? Now you've got me wondering if I should try all these recipes again with bleached flour....

I wonder, what are the trained p.c.'s using?

Edited to add: Rethinking this, I suppose a new thread is in order.....

Edited March 22, 2006 by Sugarella (log)

[SweetSide]

Thanks for that. I know this is waaaaay beyond 101 but the thread seems to have gone that way. My fault probably!    But I'll continue this here anyways....

So, Sweetside, I must ask.... did you mean bleached with benzoyl peroxide or did you mean hydrogen perozide!?

I've always assumed flour was bleached with chlorine, which is why I've always used unbleached. But if it's done with h.p. then that's not so bad. I do know a bleached flour tastes different than unbleached..... is the tradeoff of taste worth it to get that moister crumb? Now you've got me wondering if I should try all these recipes again with bleached flour.... 

I wonder, what are the trained p.c.'s using?

Edited to add: Rethinking this, I suppose a new thread is in order..... 

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My fault too:blush: -- perhaps there is a way to split the thread. But, yes, I meant benzoyl peroxide. Does that mean eating treats will keep your skin clear?

I happen to use KA flour (unbleached, unbromated) for everything except cakes that specifically call for cake flour. For those, the stuff is bleached (try not to think about it). I can't readily find any other kind of cake flour here. Even KA cake flour is bleached.

[memesuze]

I'm quite satisfied with my digital postal scale from OfficeDepot or OfficeMax - metric or English, IIRC measures in tenths of an ounce and whole grams, tare function, low profile, regularly around $30-35, but less on sale.....and I have a $75 digital scale that measures smaller quantities of grams - down to the 100th of a gram - more often use for my tea, but could use for small baking quantities if necessary

[Wendy DeBord]

At work I use a Salter brand scale........it was around $40.00 bought at either Bed Bath & Beyond or Linens & Things. I had a similar scale that recently gave up, but it lasted 3 years under heavy daily use. Sooooo how much you want to invest in a scale is up to you.....some of the cheaper models work quite well.

Flour...............o.k. I'll spill (I'm a pro)........if I had my choice I'd have unbleached ap, bleached ap, pastry, cake & bread (plus: whole wheat, rice and a couple more) flours at work. BUT the reality of my space, particular job, etc... all I have is bleached ap and cake flour, period. I'm able to bake quite well with those two. Sometimes I think about changing to unbleached ap as my all around flour but theres more things I make that I like the bleached in, then the unbleached.

[Patrick S]

At work I use a Salter brand scale........it was around $40.00 bought at either Bed Bath & Beyond or Linens & Things.

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I think mine is a Salter too, and it was about $40. 11lb capacity, tare function, display in grams or ounces, 2g accuracy. The scale I had before this one I actually bought for less than $20 on Ebay. It was almost as good, but only had 2.2lb capacity. I got a good year out of it before it malfunctioned.

[onehsancare]

Love my KD-600!!!

[Beanie]

I have a My Weigh 7001dx and love it. Features include 11.4 lb capacity, tare, display in pounds, pound:ounces, grams, and kilograms; accuracy to 1 gram, display light. My favorite features are the small footprint and optional AC adapter. I hate dealing with batteries.

[K8memphis]

This is where I bought my scale. I just got a simple postal scale, weighs to 10 pounds has the tare. Easy. Cheap. I bought it for postage but it doubles in the kitchen too.

[NYC Mike]

Thanks everyone for the helpful replies so far!

All chocolate cannot be created equal.

This week I made the best chocolate pudding I have ever eaten. BUT!! It was made with Valhrona Manjari which is $8 for a 7 ounce bar at Fairway in Manhattan.

Two questions for the experts:

1. Do you have mail order sources to buy great bulk chocolate for cheaper than near $1 per ounce? If I could get it to half that price in bulk, I suppose I could justify the expense.

2. What are some lower cost replacements/substitutions you like for daily use? I would like to make this for the kids when they ask but not at those Valhrona prices. Hershey's kisses anyone?

Thanks,

-Mike

[Patrick S]

Thanks everyone for the helpful replies so far!

All chocolate cannot be created equal. 

This week I made the best chocolate pudding I have ever eaten.  BUT!!  It was made with Valhrona Manjari which is $8 for a 7 ounce bar at Fairway in Manhattan.

Two questions for the experts:

1. Do you have mail order sources to buy great bulk chocolate for cheaper than near $1 per ounce?  If I could get it to half that price in bulk, I suppose I could justify the expense.

2. What are some lower cost replacements/substitutions you like for daily use?  I would like to make this for the kids when they ask but not at those Valhrona prices.  Hershey's kisses anyone?

Thanks,

-Mike

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If you buy 1kg quantity Valrhona manjari from chocosphere, the price before shipping works out to about $0.85 per ounce. Even if you buy 3kg, the price is still about $0.75 per ounce.

My favorite low-cost chocolate is Callebaut, which you can get for roughly $0.50 per ounce when you buy 1kg, about about $0.40 per ounce at 5kg.

Edited March 22, 2006 by Patrick S (log)

[Sugarella]

1. Do you have mail order sources to buy great bulk chocolate for cheaper than near $1 per ounce?  If I could get it to half that price in bulk, I suppose I could justify the expense.

2. What are some lower cost replacements/substitutions you like for daily use?  I would like to make this for the kids when they ask but not at those Valhrona prices.  Hershey's kisses anyone?

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Two words: Whole and Sale! Sorry couldn't resist that one.... Sorry I can't help with prices especially for someone in the states, but I ditto Patrick's recommendation of Callebaut. Bernard makes a terrific chocolate that's reasonably priced (possibly because it's made up here??) ....I'm actually surprised I haven't seen Callebaut mentioned more often on eG ... a great chocolate...especially for everyday use or experimenting.

Now back to Wendy.....

Flour...............o.k. I'll spill (I'm a pro)........if I had my choice I'd have unbleached ap, bleached ap, pastry, cake & bread (plus: whole wheat, rice and a couple more) flours at work. BUT the reality of my space, particular job, etc... all I have is bleached ap and cake flour, period. I'm able to bake quite well with those two. Sometimes I think about changing to unbleached ap as my all around flour but theres more things I make that I like the bleached in, then the unbleached.

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Ok.... I get what you're saying but why would bleached flour be your preference in some cases? I'm actually trying to figure this out because to the best of my knowledge I've never used it.... not in the past decade I've been doing this for customers anyways. Bleach in flour then into pastries in my mind conjures up a taste of something equivalent to wonder bread.... which I have eaten once in my life and didn't enjoy the sweetness of.... most likely because I am just not used to it.

My cakes and pastries lean on the side of being extremely mild on sweetness but not fatty, just full of flavour. So, so far I've been happy with all of my results (about 80% of recipes original now, after tinkering) .... but with Sweetside mentioning it holds moisture and affects flavour now I'm wondering if bleached flour is something I should actually be exploring. What do you think? If it ain't broke don't fix it? Or I should really explore everything if I truly want to develop my own taste and style?

[rickster]

1. Do you have mail order sources to buy great bulk chocolate for cheaper than near $1 per ounce? If I could get it to half that price in bulk, I suppose I could justify the expense.

I have often used lepicerie.com. It looks like their price per oz on Manjari runs from about $.66 if you buy 3 kg to about $.81 for 8 oz. They have other brands as well and say they have free shipping in NYC if you spend over $75.

[Wendy DeBord]

Now back to Wendy.....

Flour...............o.k. I'll spill (I'm a pro)........if I had my choice I'd have unbleached ap, bleached ap, pastry, cake & bread (plus: whole wheat, rice and a couple more) flours at work. BUT the reality of my space, particular job, etc... all I have is bleached ap and cake flour, period. I'm able to bake quite well with those two. Sometimes I think about changing to unbleached ap as my all around flour but theres more things I make that I like the bleached in, then the unbleached.

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Ok.... I get what you're saying but why would bleached flour be your preference in some cases? I'm actually trying to figure this out because to the best of my knowledge I've never used it.... not in the past decade I've been doing this for customers anyways. Bleach in flour then into pastries in my mind conjures up a taste of something equivalent to wonder bread.... which I have eaten once in my life and didn't enjoy the sweetness of.... most likely because I am just not used to it.

My cakes and pastries lean on the side of being extremely mild on sweetness but not fatty, just full of flavour. So, so far I've been happy with all of my results (about 80% of recipes original now, after tinkering) .... but with Sweetside mentioning it holds moisture and affects flavour now I'm wondering if bleached flour is something I should actually be exploring. What do you think? If it ain't broke don't fix it? Or I should really explore everything if I truly want to develop my own taste and style?

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I'm not a scientist by any stretch of imagination...........so I can't begin to address how flour is bleached or the exact differences between it and unbleached flours. (Although I do find it really interesting to learn about this.) The only things I can address is what I experience baking daily.

I can understand peoples resistance to products that don't appear on the surface to be all natural. BUT as we've learned about tons of ingredients here, sometimes ingredients that have been tampered with by scientists are really just an improved product with nothing negative about it. As if all products genetically improved means they're ruining our health or our world....... was true, but it's not. But this is a whole different topic technically and it belongs in another forum if we want to continue it.

Yes, I do think theres a difference in your finished product between using bleached and unbleached flour. In some items it's not that noticable but in others it's hugely noticable. If your serious about baking I do think it's important for you to try the two side by side in several items and form your own opinion, independent from everyone (including books and other pro.'s).

I don't think I make too sweet of desserts or overly fatty items........not at all. I don't relate mass produced bleached flour to unbleached flour in that arguement. You'd have to get more into organics and whole grains, etc... for me to think your making "healthier" items.

[maui420]

hi wendy, thanks for the reply!

1.is there a big difference in using softened butter vs melted butter in terms of making chocolate chip cookies, basic cakes, and other things. well in what cases would it make a difference?

2.since ive been baking, i never shift the dry ingredients. when i combine all the dry ingredients, i take a whisk and whisk the bowl to make sure all the dry ingredients are dispersed equally. should i shift?

3.after i bake a cake, is it better to leave it at room temp to cool, or can i place the cake in the fridge before i ice?

4...

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answers:

1. Yes, you can get a big difference between using melted or softened butter in any/ almost every recipe. When you mix together a cookie or cake often you need to whip air into it and that effects volume and texture. If your butter is melted it won't take whipped air. We intentionally use melted butter and not soft in other recipes. So stick to which ever your recipe calls for.

2. Sifting ingredients was begun years ago when the quality of our ingredients weren't as good as they are now. So you can get away with not sifting in many recipes. Personally, I think it's added to too many recipes unneccessarily. BUT occasionally it will be important and it will strongly effect your recipe, so you can't ignore sifting all the time. Theres a huge difference in measuring items that have or have not been sifted, so you might be measuring too much of an item if you didn't sift it when the recipe told you to.

3. When you refridgerate a cake it changes it's texture. Usually making the item firmer. Sometimes the item goes back to it's fresh baked texture after it comes up to room temp. and sometimes it doesn't. A firmer cake is far easier to frost then a delicate freshly baked cake. But a fresh baked butter cake will not taste the same after it's been refridgerated..........so it depends. AND if your icing/frosting is stiff or light and easy to spread then that effects which way you need your cake to be. Some cake recipes tell you to freeze the still hot cake. Sooooo there's not one answer to this question. Typcially, chilling in the cooler won't hurt your product, even if it isn't ideal for that baked good.

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[jende]

Maybe this "dumb question" was already asked, but how the hell do you remove foil from the bottom of a pan of brownies or bar cookies?

I usually don't use this method, but I made some brownies today that called for the pan to be lined with foil first and I thought I'd give it a try. They were very easy to pull out of the pan, but now I've got an 8x8 brownie with foil on its bottom.

With a solid bar cookie I'd probably try flipping it over and peeling off the foil, but these are pretty fudgy brownies and I know they would fall apart immediately.

Any hints (besides "don't line your pan with foil anymore")?

[miladyinsanity]

Maybe this "dumb question" was already asked, but how the hell do you remove foil from the bottom of a pan of brownies or bar cookies?

I usually don't use this method, but I made some brownies today that called for the pan to be lined with foil first and I thought I'd give it a try. They were very easy to pull out of the pan, but now I've got an 8x8 brownie with foil on its bottom.

With a solid bar cookie I'd probably try flipping it over and peeling off the foil, but these are pretty fudgy brownies and I know they would fall apart immediately.

Any hints (besides "don't line your pan with foil anymore")?

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Take a sheet pan (for example, anything flat will work), place it on top of your brownies, flip (hold it together), peel off the foil, and flip again.

It shouldn't fall apart this way.

[Patrick S]

Maybe this "dumb question" was already asked, but how the hell do you remove foil from the bottom of a pan of brownies or bar cookies?

I usually don't use this method, but I made some brownies today that called for the pan to be lined with foil first and I thought I'd give it a try. They were very easy to pull out of the pan, but now I've got an 8x8 brownie with foil on its bottom.

With a solid bar cookie I'd probably try flipping it over and peeling off the foil, but these are pretty fudgy brownies and I know they would fall apart immediately.

Any hints (besides "don't line your pan with foil anymore")?

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In addition to what milady said about inverting onto a pan, you can also chill the brownies. If they are butter and chocolate-rich, chilling them will make them much more sturdy, and less likely to break apart when you pull the foil off.

[NYC Mike]

OK! Another dumb question coming up! What can be done about over browning sides and bottoms on cakes. This is happening to me using springforms or reg cake pans. The tops and inside are done just right but my sides and bottoms are over done and almost burnt.

Would lowering the temp or raising the rack help? Could I sit the cake pan on a sheet tray to offset this? Am I leaving it in too long?

Thanks!!

-Mike

[Sugarella]

^^ The sides and bottoms are browning but not the top? In that case, it's not your oven, it's your pans. Any chance you're using nonstick baking pans? That'll do it, because they don't conduct heat appropriately for baked goods. They take forever to heat up to the right temp, then when they finally do their temp just shoots up and starts burning everything.

Outside of buying new pans, try lining the bottom and sides with parchment (circle or square cut to fit for the bottom, plus another piece to line the sides) .... it's not much of an insulator but it will keep the batter from actually touching the pan sides and will help a bit. And for all flour based cakes, bake at 325. Hope that helps.

Edited to add: .... and that was NOT a dumb question.

Edited April 1, 2006 by Sugarella (log)

[CanadianBakin']

OK! Another dumb question coming up!  What can be done about over browning sides and bottoms on cakes.  This is happening to me using springforms or reg cake pans.  The tops and inside are done just right but my sides and bottoms are over done and almost burnt.

Would lowering the temp or raising the rack help?  Could I sit the cake pan on a sheet tray to offset this?  Am I leaving it in too long?

Thanks!!

-Mike

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Magi-strips from Wilton work wonders for the sides. Then you could either raise your oven rack or put the cake on a heavy gauge baking sheet for the bottom.

Edited April 1, 2006 by CanadianBakin' (log)

[NYC Mike]

Thanks Sugarella and CB!

Well, the top is browning but only appropriately so while the sides and the bottom are too dark/near burnt.

In the case today I was using this pan . Think it might be the culprit?

I'll also raise the rack and try a baking sheet.

-Mike

[Sugarella]

Thanks Sugarella and CB!

Well, the top is browning but only appropriately so while the sides and the bottom are too dark/near burnt.

In the case today I was using this pan .  Think it might be the culprit?

I'll also raise the rack and try a baking sheet.

-Mike

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Yep, 'fraid so. Logically, the top should brown first because that's the only part exposed to air and is in contact with the direct heat from the oven, right? Double thick non stick coating isn't so good for cakes.... those pans are great for cheesecakes baked in a water bath though, because the water regulates the temp on the sides giving you more even baking, so hang onto the pan!