strengths of cities' food scenes

[herbacidal]

The Morimoto and Buddakan in NYC thread made me start thinking.

When visiting cities, we tend to pick particular places we want to go to eat.

A good complementary way to organize our food visits would be to

get a better idea of the food scene's strengths.

Here's a start.

The strengths of the Philly food scene:

1) BYOBs because they serve food (in some cases) on par with 2-3 star restaurants, just without alcohol service

2) gastropubs, where if you want to be even more casual than a BYOB, but yet have food far superior than most general bar food

(smelts or roquefort burger, anyone?)

3) sandwiches and other cheap eats/lunch foods (roast pork, cheesesteaks, chicken cutlet, Italian sausage, etc.), not to mention banh mi, falafel, and tacos, the latter two which I'm slightly jealous of NYC about, just because of the possibility of getting it really cheap from a truck

Both 1 and 2 are to some extent reactions to the state store alcohol system.

[MarketStEl]

Since this thread was started by yet another (insert city name here)-vs.-NYC comparative-dining discussion, the city in this case being Philadelphia, I may as well cut to the chase and state what I see as the problem that usually gives rise to these pointless theological exercises.

It could be roughly described as follows:

1) Talented chef or restaurateur opens a restaurant in one of the large provincial centers, and said restaurant soon garners local and even national attention for its quality (or qualities).

2) Outsiders make pilgrimages to the new shrine and sing its praises.

3) The talented chef/restaurateur, flush with success, decides it's time to take his game to the next level and announces plans to open an establishment in New York City.

4) New Yorkers, being all at once more sophisticated, more demanding, more critical and as provincial as the folks in the provinces, express skepticism or astonishment, or both, that this hayseed from the hinterlands, fabulous though he may be, could possibly open a restaurant equal to what New York has to offer in (insert any category but barbecue here).

(Now I exaggerate on this last point, for not even New Yorkers are arrogant enough to argue that they offer better cheesesteaks or roast pork Italian sandwiches than Philadelphia's best. But I don't exaggerate by much.)

5) The interloper's New York outpost opens and wows the socks off the multitudes.

All of this is the result of a logical fallacy that New Yorkers seem prone to repeat, one which triggers a defensive response when unleashed on the hinterlanders.

The fallacy takes the form of two propositions:

A. There is no other city in the country like New York.

B. The best other cities have to offer could not possibly measure up to the best New York has to offer.

A. is true, but B. does not necessarily follow from A.

[prasantrin]

Since this thread was started by yet another (insert city name here)-vs.-NYC comparative-dining discussion, the city in this case being Philadelphia, I may as well cut to the chase and state what I see as the problem that usually gives rise to these pointless theological exercises.

←

I didn't think that was what this thread was about, at all. I thought herbicidal was trying to get others to advertise the highlights of their cities' food scenes, so that if, for example, I were going to Boise, Idaho, I could come to this thread and read what a local thinks is best in their city.

Winnipeg, my hometown, has great cheap "ethnic" food due to its large immigrant population. If you ever have to go to Winnipeg, you'll at least have that to look forward to. And while you'll never get anything close to the fine dining of larger cities, you can get very good food (at Winnipeg's versions of fine dining establishments) for far more reasonable prices.

Now, if you ever come to Winnipeg, you'll know to either go for the cheap ethnic place, or a more expensive not-quite-fine-dining place, but you'll know not to expect the likes of West in Vancouver (not that I've been there), Alinea in Chicago (not been there, either), or Per Se in New York (ditto).

[rooftop1000]

Sorry, Sandy is right.

This is an offshoot of

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=81731

T

[MarketStEl]

Specifically, the thread veered off in the direction I identified with this post, and if you look at the passage quoted in it, you will find part B of the logical fallacy plainly and baldly stated in finest New York fashion.

However, our Winnipeg friend is correct inasmuch as Herb did start out by saying "What's great about your city's dining?", thus turning a negative into a positive. I still feel that it's worth exploring the root cause, though.

(Edited to correct Freudian slip.)

Edited January 28, 2006 by MarketStEl (log)

[docsconz]

Since this thread was started by yet another (insert city name here)-vs.-NYC comparative-dining discussion, the city in this case being Philadelphia, I may as well cut to the chase and state what I see as the problem that usually gives rise to these pointless theological exercises.

It could be roughly described as follows:

1) Talented chef or restaurateur opens a restaurant in one of the large provincial centers, and said restaurant soon garners local and even national attention for its quality (or qualities).

2) Outsiders make pilgrimages to the new shrine and sing its praises.

3) The talented chef/restaurateur, flush with success, decides it's time to take his game to the next level and announces plans to open an establishment in New York City.

4) New Yorkers, being all at once more sophisticated, more demanding, more critical and as provincial as the folks in the provinces, express skepticism or astonishment, or both, that this hayseed from the hinterlands, fabulous though he may be, could possibly open a restaurant equal to what New York has to offer in (insert any category but barbecue here).

(Now I exaggerate on this last point, for not even New Yorkers are arrogant enough to argue that they offer better cheesesteaks or roast pork Italian sandwiches than Philadelphia's best.  But I don't exaggerate by much.)

5) The interloper's New York outpost opens and wows the socks off the multitudes.

All of this is the result of a logical fallacy that New Yorkers seem prone to repeat, one which triggers a defensive response when unleashed on the hinterlanders.

The fallacy takes the form of two propositions:

A. There is no other city in the country like New York.

B. The best other cities have to offer could not possibly measure up to the best New York has to offer.

A. is true, but B. does not necessarily follow from A.

←

While your statements are largely true, the picture you paint is incomplete. For whatever reasons New Yorkers are a skeptical lot (and people think Missouri is the "Show me" state!). This skepticism is not limited to imports nor is it limited to food. New Yorkers have experienced and seen so much hype over their (our) lifetimes that until something hyped is demonstrated to live up to it, it is subject to said skepticism. Should something live up to the hype, though, it is embraced wholey. Examples include Mark Messier, Pedro Martinez, Per Se, Masa and any successful Broadway show after an out-of-town run. An example of a home-grown restaurant situation with a lot of success behind it that is feeling a lot of the same skepticism is Batali's Del Posto.. New Yorkers react funny sometimes. If we are supposed to like something simply because it has been touted elsewhere or because we are automatically supposed to, we will often react with a "we'll see" attitude. It better live up to its hype or else. If not it gets ridiculed mercilessly. If it does and does so consistently it will feel the love. "If you can make it in new York you can make it anywhere" is the old refrain. Personally, I think this skepticism is healthy - at least for New Yorkers.

As far as restaurants transplanted to NYC from other places, I personally would be more curious if the restaurants were not coming totally on the coat-tails of the original. While the food at Per Se is stylistically and in many cases specifically the same as The French Laundry, it did not come in as "The French Laundry". The fact that it has a different name and feel, I believe, has been important in its success. While it has a close relationship to its mother restaurant, it also has its own personality. That may ultimately be true for Morimoto and Buddakan, but just the fact that they have the same names as their mothers gives the impression (true or not) that they will be clone-like and are part of a formula driven program - in essence a chain. At least when Nobu opened here, even though it had a predecessor elsewhere, I believe it opened with a different name than its mother and a totally different feel. That other Nobus opened elsewhere subsequently is a different issue. Sure, plenty of chains have opened in NY and been financially successful for reasons they have been elsewhere, but I can't off the top of my head think of any that have been critically successful. I believe that this one of the strengths of NYC's food scene.

To look at it another way, I love the fact that certain cities have their own culinary stars. As much as I love Alinea, I love it in Chicago. If it were to start springing up all over the place and tried to duplicate itself in NYC or elsewhere (e.g. the restaurant clone capitol of the world - Las Vegas) it would lose some of its uniqueness and specialness to me. If Grant Achatz wanted to open a different restaurant in NYC that would be another story and very interesting so long as it did not negatively impact what he is doing at Alinea. Jose Andres has been very successful with this concept in DC and heretofore Batali has been in NYC. They have opened distinct restaurants and managed to maintain not only the excellence of their flagships, but the newer restaurants have also been excellent. Jean-Georges has maintained the excellence of his eponymous flagship, but some of his more recent ventures have encountered various degrees of critical and financial success often with large doses of NY skepticism thrown in.

[MarketStEl]

While your statements are largely true, the picture you paint is incomplete. For whatever reasons New Yorkers are a skeptical lot (and people think Missouri is the "Show me" state!).

←

Recall that I am a native of said state, Doc.

There are actually two versions of how Missouri got its nickname. Most people are familiar with the positive version, perhaps most famously expressed by the state's only President, Harry S Truman, in his 1948 campaign when he used it as a declaration of defiant skepticism.

There is a negative version, too, which is (understandably) far less well known. It has something to do with the denseness of some of the state's inhabitants.

--Sandy, eternally grateful for not having been born in or near the Bootheel

[MarketStEl]

In fact, I received a pm from an eGer with one foot planted in Philadelphia and the other in New York who pointed out to me that there is a reverse of the phenomenon I described in Post #2. It too is worth exploring.

It runs like this:

1) Talented New York chef garners kudos from the locals and (especially) the local press for innovative fare or an innovative restaurant.

2) Said chef, currently a hired gun at someone else's establishment, gets a swelled head or the itch to see if he is really all the critics say he is, and decides it's time to open a restaurant of his own. The problem is, he can't afford to do it in New York, at least not yet.

3) A restaurateur in another city either hears of the rising chef's plight or sees an opportunity to make a splash in that city's dining scene by bringing in the talented New Yorker to run the show at a new establishment created around the chef. (Or the chef himself decides to strike out on his own, finding a suitable location in another city.) This is the equivalent of the out-of-town tryout that Broadway musicals used to receive.

4) The restaurant opens, and...here the parallel breaks down.

This has happened at least twice in Philadelphia, once with Masaharu Morimoto after "Iron Chef" was permanently affixed to his name, and once with Marcus Samuelsson, the Eritrean Swede.

Morimoto has been warmly received in the City of Brotherly Love, but Samuelsson's "global street food" ended up getting thrown back in his face, which is probably a justifiable reaction on the part of diners in a city where they know street food, even if much of it is served in storefronts.

I'm not sure I can draw any logical conclusion from this, except to say that it does suggest, if not prove, that there are other US cities with culinary specialties that New Yorkers have not mastered, and if a New Yorker attempts to try to outdo the locals at their own game, it may end up turning out badly. That, BTW, may explain the reaction I have to Bobby Flay. Then again, it may just be Bobby Flay.

Edited January 28, 2006 by MarketStEl (log)

[docsconz]

Sandy, I am not familiar with Samuelsson's experience in Philly. Was that before or after Aquavit?

[jamiemaw]

"If you can make it in new York you can make it anywhere" is the old refrain. Personally, I think this skepticism is healthy - at least for New Yorkers.

←

New Yorkers have much to be skeptical about; they are routinely cheated by hyperbole and the artifice of celebrity. But even Frankie got it badly wrong from time to time.

Culinary chauvinism might be as fast a growth industry as that what begat it. Our local bemusement is heightened whenever we reflect on a certain Iron Chef episode, No. IA1A03. Storyline: The proprietor of a little brasserie at the end of our street handed Morimoto his arse on a plate. It wasn't terribly close. Said Morimoto stormed off the set, furiously bumping into the victor, leading many to question which is the duller, his knives or his wit. But now, at least he'll have the world's largest noren to hide behind. Locally, the once-proud cry of Mor-i-moto! has been reduced to mean egoistic spoil-sport loser.

Another of our favourite spectator sports in Manhattan (in addition to watching the brownstockinged tourists roll-in to Daniel for the pre-theatre sitting) is sitting in the bleachers when foreign invilgilators cast their ballots. The handwringing that accompanied Michelin's laconic opinions was found art and almost as much fun as reporting on Richard Johnson's affair here in Vancouver. The irony of the latter was not lost on us provincials: The pressures of Johnson's job being such that he was actually unable to make it there; the chaste became the chased.

[cdh]

Sandy, I am not familiar with Samuelsson's experience in Philly. Was that before or after Aquavit?

←

Samuelsson was about 2 years ago...

[KatieLoeb]

Sandy, I am not familiar with Samuelsson's experience in Philly. Was that before or after Aquavit?

←

Samuelsson was about 2 years ago...

←

To answer docsconz more directly, it was after Aquavit (and Samuelsson) was firmly established and successful in NYC and soon after the Minneapolis branch of Aquavit had closed.

The menu that Samuelsson designed for the opening of Washington Square was supposed to be reflective of "global street foods", whatever the hell that means. That apparently didn't translate well from menu page to diners plates. It seems Chef Samuelsson spent what little time he actually spent in Philadelphia at photo shoots for the various local glossies and not in the kitchen. The restaurant opened in June 2004. Samuelsson's tenure ended around the end of 2004 or January 2005 - a mere six months or so. The restaurant is currently on it's third or fourth executive chef I believe, and the menu has morphed quite a bit into more American brasserie type of fare. It remains very sexy and sleek inside, with minimalist decor, lots of black and a lovely enclosed courtyard.

[MarketStEl]

Sandy, I am not familiar with Samuelsson's experience in Philly. Was that before or after Aquavit?

←

Samuelsson was about 2 years ago...

←

After Aquavit, IIRC.

And to further tie things together: Like Morimoto, Stephen Starr was behind it.

Starr had hired Samuelsson to be the executive chef at his 10th restaurant (No. 9 on the list of those still open), Washington Square. There was much ballyhoo in the local press about Samuelsson's imminent arrival and the "global street food" menu.

Once he was here, things went south pretty quickly. I don't remember all the details, but the menu at Washington Square drew raspberries from local critics and there was some sort of dispute or falling out between Starr and Samuelsson, or something, but the end result was that within a couple of months of Washington Square's opening, Samuelsson was on his way back to New York.

[chefdg]

hell we aint got no fancy chefs like yal do in new york city

In Naples Florida (in my opinion):

1. Pastrami Dan's, a quick bite in a good location, 41 and central ave.

2. I have heard good things about Real Seafood Company, but I haven't made it there yet.

3. Campiello, nice Italian.

That's it. I rank Naples a 5 out of 10. "Culinary Wasteland"

[herbacidal]

I didn't think that was what this thread was about, at all.  I thought herbicidal was trying to get others to advertise the highlights of their cities' food scenes, so that if, for example, I were going to Boise, Idaho, I could come to this thread and read what a local thinks is best in their city.

←

Actually, Prasantin was right. While this thread was inspired by the NYC vs Philly debate within that Morimoto and Buddakan coming to NYC thread, it was not intended to bring that debate to General Food Topics.

It was, however, intended to get people to advertise the strengths of their cities' food scenes, as a way to better understand where to eat when visiting a particular city.

Combined with knowledge of particular restaurants (touristy spots and otherwise), I thought it would be a fairly useful guide to understanding where to eat in that city.

A guide much better for the second-tenth time tourist in a city than the first-timer.

While I have an opinion on the NYC vs the world debate, I will decline to express it.

Edited January 29, 2006 by herbacidal (log)

[R Washburn]

The fallacy takes the form of two propositions:

A. There is no other city in the country like New York.

B. The best other cities have to offer could not possibly measure up to the best New York has to offer.

A. is true, but B. does not necessarily follow from A.

←

I would say that of the 20 best restaurants in America, New York has at least 5 of them (ADNY, Per Se, Daniel, Jeans-Georges and Masa), whereas other cities are remarkable if they have one restaurant at that level. Philadelphia's Le Bec-Fin is definitely in the same league as the best restaurants in NY, but I don't think any other restaurant in Philadelphia is close to that level.

IMHO, most New York Times 2-star restaurants would receive 4-bells from the Inquirer, and even Philadelphia's best restaurant (Le Bec-fin) might only receive 3- stars if reviewed today, given the boom of ultra highend restaurants in NYC.

The dining scene in Philadelphia has improved over the past few years, but the same can be said for New York as well. In fact, I think Le Bec-Fin was more remarkable in 1990 than it is today, because there are now several restaurants in NY surpassing it in luxury and price, which was not the case 15 years ago.

(Now I exaggerate on this last point, for not even New Yorkers are arrogant enough to argue that they offer better cheesesteaks or roast pork Italian sandwiches than Philadelphia's best.  But I don't exaggerate by much.)

Actually, the NY outpost of Tony Luke's is comparable to the Oregon Ave. location, and a few other places serving cheesesteaks (Carl's, 99 Miles to Philly) make above average cheesesteaks.

Sarcone's bakery and La Colombe are still tops, though, IMHO.

[monavano]

Aside from an impressive and exploding restaurant scene in Washington D.C., the area is rife with Ethiopian restaurants. I would say this is a signature food of the nation's capitol.

Also, El Salvadoran as the D. C. area (we're talking Northern VA) is I believe second only to CA for El Salvadorian immigrants.

[lindaterry]

wow. I'm brand new to eGullet. I've been afraid of upgrading my participating membership because of my knowing everything and going on endlessly. (is this where I put in a clickable smilie?)

I'm in Philadelphia.

Starr is admittedly not exactly a "restauranteur" but what might be referred to as a "Starbucker", where his rest. ideas come directly from other restaurants, NYC being the major player. For example, Buddakan was Asia de Cuba and China Grill combined. His latest, Barclay Prime is The Beach's, aka SOFE (South of Fifth) in Miami, Prime 112. He is a corporate mogul. His timing and intuition have been great, for the most part. He is truely a great Philadelphia entrepeneur that finally had success in the onset of the 90's, the 90's being Philadelphia's 2nd coming in the restaurant world aidied by a cheerleading, hospitality friendly mayor, Ed Rendell.

This plan involved riding the backs of the hospitality industry while campaigning Philadelphia to be a World Class City, as oppossed to the city where you go to see the bell and then get the hell out for fear of not being saved by the corrupt cops when you get mugged at night (9:00pm) because the streets "are rolled up", or fear of being killed in 30th St Station's bathroom. The opening of the new convention center was key as well.

Typically Philly Style, there were many instances of taking 2 steps forward and 10 steps backwards. The new convention center wasn't big enough and was, and continues to be, plagued by our unions. The 90's also brought a recession and it was survival of the fittest for restaurants. This meant that new Philadelphia restaurants were ones with great theme-parked entertainment value, and high-end chains such as Capital Grill. Basically, ones with a corporate umbrella and big investment monies, supported by city government. Mind you, doing small business in Philadelphia was, and is, a struggle, to say the least! NYC began following this trend as well. I don't know if we have a choice.

It's been a struggle to pull Philadelphia away from it's Quaker state; the state that it disgusts and considers it to be as dirty and unsafe as NYC. It's been said over and over, but, "There's Philadlphia and Pittsbugh with Alabama in between. On top of being neglected and looked at as a bad seed, Philadelphia has to contend with it's state laws whcih hinder the success of the hospitality industry. (We still pay the Johnstown Flood tx, from decades ago.) It also has hurt Philadelphia that it lies between NYC and DC. Philadelphia mission was to become a destination city. The hospitality industry was on it!

A decade and a half later: since 2001, before the election even, most small, independent, fine dining white linen restaurants have been operating in the red, or closing. Costs are impossible; BYOBs are too numerous (the bill adds up and people do not account for the $ spent on the booze, not to discount the BYOBs themselves!); the chains, high end ones and the 'Applebys of the nation, where the marketing strategies changed to promoting themselves as the small independent restaurant, are impossible to keep up with. Afterall, Appleby's is "the friendly neighborhood restaurant.")

Stardom became the recipe for a great restaurant. "STARRdom) TVFN changed the industry. Chefs left their kitchens. Entertainment was key. The industry became Hollywooded: meet Stephen Starr. Of course, with any trend, NYC was a forerunner and even began a struggle as the number one star after 9/11. By the way, 9/11 helped Philadelphia.

My last decade of visiting New York has made me uncomfortable. NYC has always been about its resisdents. My gut feeling has me thinking that this is not the case anymore. Broadway musicals are about carrying the one American-Idol long note, and is owned by conglomerates. Murray's in the village just became Dean and Delucaized, and is surrounded with condos inhabited part time by Hollywood Stars, and Mario of course. Jean George, Spice Market?? Admittedly I like staying at The Gavensvort and having my capp at Pastise in the morning, but it's for my own comfort level I seek wherever I am. It's all 10 times more stimulating for my manic self, but not a true NY experience. I'm down to just staying in the West Village with friends, who I beg to take me to places that are not on the hit parade. It's becoming difficult and I spend all night listening to talk about being on the waiting list for that 500 sq foot apartment for 3000.00! (ha ha, I inhabit 2000 sq ft in Philly!)

All that being said (sorry), for Stephen Starr to succeed in NYC is a condondrum, and a little shameful from my perspective. I think more chefs will return to the line, that consumers do have the opportunity to create a their own market as oppossed to following the trend (PBR?), politically correct will become more politically incorrect, and the small population of liberal, cultural, intellectual and democratic Americans will take back America, including setting the trends instead of following them and judging restaurants based on their own experiences.

Is this way too long for this forum? Give it to me.