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I've never left nothing, nor have I left less than 10%. Ten percent is my tip for slow, rude, inattentive, etc. etc. etc. If a waiter treated me as badly as some of the stories here, I'm not sure what I'd do.

I know someone who almost always has "lousy" service at restaurants. Things that piss her off always start with the server not realizing that she's dealing with "such a strong, assertive, knowledgeable and classy" woman. :huh:

"Oh, tuna. Tuna, tuna, tuna." -Andy Bernard, The Office
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I've never left nothing, nor have I left less than 10%.  Ten percent is my tip for slow, rude, inattentive, etc. etc. etc.  If a waiter treated me as badly as some of the stories here, I'm not sure what I'd do.

I know someone who almost always has "lousy" service at restaurants.  Things that piss her off always start with the server not realizing that she's dealing with "such a strong, assertive, knowledgeable and classy" woman.  :huh:

When did you meet my daughter? I prefer not to go out with her because she treats service persons in a truly mean manner.

Another daughter and I were at lunch in a local place recently. The waitress was busy but there was no reason for her churlish, snappish attitude and when we needed more tea, we couldn't catch her eye. She got $1 and a note. We have never gone back.

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Eye-rolling, slamming down plates, glasses, etc., sighs of impatience, snippy comments, eye-brow raising or otherwise churlish behavior will result in no tip and no explanation. Now, if the waiter somehow upsets my usually calm and collected family or friends, I, the closeted hot-head, will discreetly speak with either the manager or, if I'm in a particularly confrontational mood, the boorish waiter in question.

petite tête de chou I so truly adore and deeply admire "closeted hot-heads." :smile: Nice to know that we are kindred spirits.

Inside me there is a thin woman screaming to get out, but I can usually keep the Bitch quiet: with CHOCOLATE!!!

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I think I've left no tip twice. The first was quite a few years ago-the waitress was rude and didn't even bring me the fork I asked for to be able to actually eat my lunch. She was really friendly with the table of men next to us though.

The second time was just a couple of months ago. The restaurant was busy-Sunday brunch. We waited patiently to order, coffee did not get refilled, etc. The final straw came when people who sat down a good 15 minutes after us got their food. Oh, the waitress had lots of time to chat with the table beside us, then turned her back and walked away so we couldn't get her attention. I finally had to yell "excuse me" to get her to acknowledge us-they she was nothing but rude and almost threw the food at me.

I've never gone back to the first restaurant and we will never be back to the second place either.

Sandra

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I think my worst experience was about 10 years ago, when I went to a local casual (but not fast-food) restaurant. I'd had a difficult morning; I walked in with the newspaper under my arm, and looked forward to having a few minutes to read and enjoy lunch.

It was 12:50, and much of the lunch crowd was gone. Probably 40% of the tables, if not more, were empty. This restaurant is downtown, where the lunch hours tend to be 12:00 to 1:00. In other words, there was no reason to believe they were going to get a flood of customers within the next 45 minutes.

The hostess led me to a table for two, which in this restaurant is about 30 inches by 30 inches. There were quite a few larger tables available. I asked for a larger table and was told "I have to seat you here."

"But I don't have to eat here," I replied, and turned around and walked out. I've been to the place a handful of times since, after new management took over. But I still don't have good feelings about it, and never suggest it. That probably has something to do also, with the fact that the food is not what it once was.

Fortunately, my next lunch stop was at the Old Mill Tasty Shop, which has much of the original soda fountain decor still in place. I hadn't been in there for probably a year, due to an unfortunate parking situation. They greeted me like an old friend and treated me like a queen. The server was a long-time employee who's always "up" and probably has fun getting a root canal. I was seated at a nice, large booth (smaller tables were open) and was in a great mood within about 3 minutes. Lunch was wonderful! Needless to say, I left a really good tip.

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I am enjoying the comments on this topic. I wanted to add that I too am a 20% or more tipper 99.9% of the time. I think think we all know its not an easy job, its when there is no excuse for bad service that we wonder why we are tipping at all.

My favorite moment of this meal in question is when we couldn't get the waitress to come and get my credit card. My wife and daughter had their coats on and eventually went to wait outside. Finally the hostess noticed us waiting and came over to get the check and credit card from me.....................well another fifteen minutes went by while she was seating people and just looking around, there I sit at an empty table by myself....la di da etc.. and then the hostess came by to say " have a great evening", at which I asked if I could continue our credit card transaction. "Oh yeah" she replies and goes to find the check again.......well you get it.

Hey does anyone want to start a topic about the little tip cups that are on so many over the counter type businesses? You know, tip me because I handed you a bagel. What is the group opinion on these sitatuations, be charitable, or resist?

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Hey does anyone want to start a topic about the little tip cups that are on so many over the counter type businesses?  You know, tip me because I handed you a bagel.  What is the group opinion on these sitatuations,  be charitable, or resist?

I think that those cups are a necessity, because the reality is that one does not make a living by working as counter help. I think that the real issue here is, why aren't prices set more realistically? Why do we need to have-have-have that bagel over the counter (or burger, for that matter) for almost a dollar less than it should rightfully cost us? And, why does the management deserve to be 'earning' a decent life, but not the workers? Why aren't living wages a necessity of every business' operating expenses? If we paid the proper amount for food over the counter, it just might change so much in our society. Because food would cost more, we would not be so casual about repeat business where the food is not of a better quality. We would not tend to overeat as much. Because of that, lower quality food would become less ubiquitous.

I've always been struck at how much more food costs as compared to incomes in almost every other society, and how that affects the lifestyle of people. I don't think that cheap food is necessarily a good thing for us in this society. I think of the French. They pay more for food, they enjoy food as a people overall, they weigh less as a rule, and their food workers make a living wage, compared to ours, especially.

Back to the scenario of raising prices. More workers would make a living wage. Because of that change, more of the workers would be able to have health care and a decent home. Because of that, there would be less of a burden on our tax and welfare systems. Because of that, we would pay less in taxes. Because of that, we would have more funds to actually live with. Besides which, there would be less disgruntle among workers, and service would improve. I think it feels upsetting to be struggling, and not feel respected, because you work full time and still can not afford a decent basic life. Off topic, and perhaps simplified, but I DO think there is quite a correlation, albeit an uncomfortable one. I've been a business owner AND a worker, I've seen both sides, and I have to say, I don't think that things are right when it comes to labor and wages in general in our society.

edited by me.. i KANT SPEL.

Edited by Rebecca263 (log)

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And, yes, I DO realize that some of those workers are only looking to make a little extra, or are teenagers with an afterschool job, etc. It doesn't change the reality that a lot of labor jobs do not pay a living wage, or benefits.

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Hey does anyone want to start a topic about the little tip cups that are on so many over the counter type businesses?  You know, tip me because I handed you a bagel.  What is the group opinion on these sitatuations,  be charitable, or resist?

If someone's made a cappucino for me I think they deserve a tip. I give them the change from my $5 bill which is usually a dollar and change. If I'm just buying something and they are only handing it over, the change in coins goes in the cup unless it's a pathetic amount and then I might give them a buck. If I'm a regular at the place, being known as a tipper gets me good service. I think the jars are smart, too. A lot of people will drop their small change in them just to avoid having to put it away, and that can add up.

However, I feel there is no need to tip the person who checks your ID to get into a club just because they put out a tip jar. Tipping is for service.

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Hey does anyone want to start a topic about the little tip cups that are on so many over the counter type businesses?  You know, tip me because I handed you a bagel.  What is the group opinion on these sitatuations,  be charitable, or resist?

I think that those cups are a necessity, because the reality is that one does not make a living by working as counter help. I think that the real issue here is, why aren't prices set more realistically? Why do we need to have-have-have that bagel over the counter (or burger, for that matter) for almost a dollar less than it should rightfully cost us? And, why does the management deserve to be 'earning' a decent life, but not the workers? Why aren't living wages a necessity of every business' operating expenses? If we paid the proper amount for food over the counter, it just might change so much in our society. Because food would cost more, we would not be so casual about repeat business where the food is not of a better quality. We would not tend to overeat as much. Because of that, lower quality food would become less ubiquitous.

I've always been struck at how much more food costs as compared to incomes in almost every other society, and how that affects the lifestyle of people. I don't think that cheap food is necessarily a good thing for us in this society. I think of the French. They pay more for food, they enjoy food as a people overall, they weigh less as a rule, and their food workers make a living wage, compared to ours, especially.

Back to the scenario of raising prices. More workers would make a living wage. Because of that change, more of the workers would be able to have health care and a decent home. Because of that, there would be less of a burden on our tax and welfare systems. Because of that, we would pay less in taxes. Because of that, we would have more funds to actually live with. Besides which, there would be less disgruntle among workers, and service would improve. I think it feels upsetting to be struggling, and not feel respected, because you work full time and still can not afford a decent basic life. Off topic, and perhaps simplified, but I DO think there is quite a correlation, albeit an uncomfortable one. I've been a business owner AND a worker, I've seen both sides, and I have to say, I don't think that things are right when it comes to labor and wages in general in our society.

edited by me.. i KANT SPEL.

Actually, whenever I get to France I'm always struck by the idea that food is less expensive over there, whether buying cheese at a fromagerie or getting a three-course menu and a half-liter of wine at a bistro.

I confess I don't generally tip anyone who serves me across the counter, be it McD's or the local latte factory. Counter service is counter service, and the people frothing milk aren't working any harder than people who flip burgers for a living.

I'm on the pavement

Thinking about the government.

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I completely agree with you, Rebecca. We live in an extremley inequitable society.

If I had my way (If I ran a zoo), tipping all together would be done away with. Raise prices and pay people well. Thats it!

Of course that will never happen, but I still don't think using tipping as some sort of welfare system based on sympathy is a great idea. As Busboy said, does the counter person deserve more money than the janitor? If we all choose to use tips as legit income, doesn't that discourage business owners from paying us more? They can then claim that you can work off tips just like the wait staff industry. Where does it end? The cashier at the 7 Eleven has a tip jar. Etc. etc.. I'm not offended by the cups, nor do I blame the people for asking, and NO I am not a Republican. LOL But the "little cups" just seem to be appearing anywhere and everwhere. It always feels like the cups should say "Pay me because I'm unhappy". Or am I just being a dick? Feel free to slam me if needed.

Edited by kguetzow (log)
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No slamming needed! Sometimes a tip jar IS just a tip jar. I'm just a bit too philosophical for my own common popularity. However, be mindful, often the janitor is making 3 times what the counter staff is. :smile: My last retail job was in a department store, in a mall. I was given many kudos, often, by corporate AND by clientele. I have literally dozens of letters attesting to my excellent service during my meager 5 months of work. Guess how much I took home every day for such excellent service? 4/5 of my rent. :huh: Oh, I was at the top of the pay scale, as well. You just can't make a living at the service level in most fields, and that is a sad fact. I don't wonder at disgruntled folks in service positions. I only wish that everyone could turn off their inner turmoil during work, in the way that I can. But, that isn't realistic, is it? And, why should it be that way? Well, we're getting way off topic here, so I'll desist. Besides, talking about this has made me hungry. For a bagel. :laugh:

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While I agree with many of the points made in the immediately preceding posts, I tip only in restaurants.

I also get service at Wal-Mart, when I ask an employee to help me find more of a certain product I want to buy, or when an employee cuts fabric for me. I get service at the grocery store, when the produce guy goes to the back to see if they have more basil. But I don't tip at any of these places.

I don't tip at Starbucks, because they make minimum wage or better. Servers in restaurants don't make minimum wage, and that's why I tip them.

There are many, many people working in various service industry positions, in minimum wage (or thereabouts) jobs, and they don't receive tips.

Yes, I agree that there's a huge disparity in wages, and that people are nearly starving, working in low-paying jobs. It's extremely unfair, but it's also unfair that I make 1/3 of what my husband makes, when my job is more challenging, requires as much training, and when I have much more education and experience. Where wages are concerned, there is enormous unfairness in this country. But as for making life and wages better for those in low-paying jobs, I'm going to solve that with charitable contributions and my vote, and not with my tipping habits.

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After reading everyone's bad service experiences, I was wondering if there was any way to preempt having to go through the misery in the first place. What telltale signs are present/observable at or near the beginning of your dining experience (or before you sit down) that should lead one to expect even more poor service or poor treatment by management in trying to correct the poor service? I should say that for me as time goes on, I have no problem with just getting up and leaving when things "just don't seem right."

Inside me there is a thin woman screaming to get out, but I can usually keep the Bitch quiet: with CHOCOLATE!!!

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You can't always tell. But if I've been sitting for what seems an inappropriate amount of time, I'll get up and leave. That time span varies with the situation; I'll cut an extremely busy restaurant more slack than I will when I'm at one that isn't very busy. But you also have to gauge how many servers are around, etc.

To me, the problem is more attitude than specifically the service. If the server seems to be working his/her butt off, and is still friendly or at least professional, I'll tolerate a lot of things. After all, it's possible that the restaurant staff has been hit by flu, etc., and they're all just pitching in and trying to do a good job, even though the result may be less than optimal. But if the attitude is an I've-got-better-things-to-do type of thing, as described in many posts above, my level of irritation will rise, and my level of tipping will go down.

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If the problem truely lies with the wait staff, then withholding tip is the best way to send a message. If, however, the fault lies in the kitchen and/or management; the best, most potent message one can send is to not frequent the place and spread the word to prevent others from suffering the same fate. How you determine where to lay the blame is another topic for discussion.

"Let me in! I am starving!" - Augustus Gloop, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory

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I've never had a restaurant experience where I left no tip and can't recall any where I left less than 15%. I normally do 20%.

However my worst restaurant experience occurred last October in San Francisco when the wine steward didn't agree with my choice of a Zinfandel. He tried to upsell me a Ridge and began a diatribe on how good Draper is at making Zins. I agreed with him, but said the Ridge on his list were very young (2004) and I preferred Draper's Zins with some more age.

He then said to me, "...well, Ive been drinking Zinfandel for a long time and I know they're better when young and Zinfandel doesn't age well anyway." He's entitled to his opinion (though I know it's wrong :laugh: ), but to say that to a customer is just asking for trouble. If I wasn't with a large group (9 others), I would have got up and walked out. The person sitting next to me must have seen my face and quickly asked the steward to bring the wine I ordered, so it ended there.

I guess that's not too bad after some 40 years of restaurant dining.

Rich Schulhoff

Opinions are like friends, everyone has some but what matters is how you respect them!

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What I truly find interesting about this thread is the way people tip. A while back in the tipping thread (during a discussion of Per Se's 22% rule) a number of people quoted research papers, which indicated that people always leave the same tip regardless of service, especially good service.

But here, it seems people do tip according to service. That was my position having worked in a "white table cloth" restaurant during my college years.

Rich Schulhoff

Opinions are like friends, everyone has some but what matters is how you respect them!

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After reading everyone's bad service experiences, I was wondering if there was any way to preempt having to go through the misery in the first place.  What telltale signs are present/observable at or near the beginning of your dining experience (or before you sit down) that should lead one to expect even more poor service or poor treatment by management in trying to correct the poor service?  I should say that for me as time goes on, I have no problem with just getting up and leaving when things "just don't seem right."

At a middle-level place, I find a sure sign things will not go well is when some people are working their butts off and others are standing around. If it looks like everyone is working the same, you will probably be OK. But at a level where you don't have super-professional servers the management had better be active. We go to a sports bar sometimes where we know the service will always be bad even though the servers seem very nice. Where's the manager? Standing around near an entrance gabbing with somebody, every time. Dead giveaway.

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It always feels like the cups should say  "Pay me because I'm unhappy".    Or am I just being a dick?  Feel free to slam me if needed.

I won't slam you because I rarely use the cups, either. I don't want to just "get rid" of my change - we take it to the bank and it pays for some nice dinners out!

If they're unhappy, well, too bad. I've probably mentioned this before, but like most of you, I've also worked customer service jobs, and it's made me both easier and tougher on other service people. Easier, because I know that a lot of things are out of their control, and yelling at them won't do any good. We're all in this together.

Harder, because my customers didn't care if I didn't like my job, if my boss was going crazy (he was, quite literally), if I had a cold. My job was to do my job, and if I was unhappy, it wasn't their problem - it was mine. I don't have a lot of sympathy for their unhappiness.

The worst service we had in recent memory was at a very highly rated ethnic restaurant, ethnicity omitted because the problem wasn't the ethnicity, it was the specific restaurant. When we arrived, the place was about half empty, we were shown to a table, given only a small drink menu, and then left alone. No menus, no water....and so we waited. And waited. And waited.

We never saw a server, and someone who was almost certainly the owner was standing over across the room chatting with his friend. I looked pointedly at him several times, making eye contact - he just turned away.

After at least 15 minutes with no menus, water, or server, we walked out, making sure to catch the owner's eye. We went down the road to a place which was one of our favorites and ended up having one of the best meals ever there. We have never been back to the first place, and never will. There are too many other restaurants which serve food as good or better and actually seem to want to serve their customers.

Marcia.

edited because I typo

Edited by purplewiz (log)

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I've never had a restaurant experience where I left no tip and can't recall any where I left less than 15%. I normally do 20%.

However my worst restaurant experience occurred last October in San Francisco when the wine steward didn't agree with my choice of a Zinfandel. He tried to upsell me a Ridge and began a diatribe on how good Draper is at making Zins. I agreed with him, but said the Ridge on his list were very young (2004) and I preferred Draper's Zins with some more age.

He then said to me, "...well, Ive been drinking Zinfandel for a long time and I know they're better when young and Zinfandel doesn't age well anyway." He's entitled to his opinion (though I know it's wrong :laugh: ), but to say that to a customer is just asking for trouble. If I wasn't with a large group (9 others), I would have got up and walked out. The person sitting next to me must have seen my face and quickly asked the steward to bring the wine I ordered, so it ended there.

I guess that's not too bad after some 40 years of restaurant dining.

A Wine Steward might be expected to discuss wines briefly, but this person seems to have been overly involved and backed himself into a corner. I think he was wrong, too, especially if one of the choices was an old vines Zin. No one in the service business should get pushy, or ignorant, or make the buyer look bad.

My expectation as a consumer, or as a server, is that 'the customer is always right, even when they're wrong'.

(This got me into a lot of hot water on the Pastry Board a few months ago. Someone (Tan) actually called me a troll for being pro-sumer!)

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I started traveling alone on business in the late 70s so you can bet I have seen a lot of bad service. A woman dining alone back then was not common at all so I developed a strategy. When the waiter first appeared at my table I just flatly stated in a friendly tone that I realized I was a single person table but they could be assured that I tipped very well when well served. That usually did the trick. I did have two funny things happen. And these are the only two times I remember not leaving a tip.

Late 70s, I was in New Orleans but staying on the West Bank because the hotel had a helipad for the helicopter to pick me up in the morning. I went to what was the best steak house over there at the time. When I appeared at the station to be seated, I was informed that they did not seat single ladies. While I was a lot better looking back then, I certainly didn't look like what they must have assumed any "single lady" was there for. I just wanted a steak. I was so stunned I just walked out speechless. (And it takes a lot to make me speechless.) Obviously there was nothing to tip.

Fast forward to the early 80s. I took my first trip to Hawaii alone. (I had discovered that traveling alone has its own set of charms.) I was in the dining room of one of the big resorts on the south of Kauai. I go into the dining room and this somewhat sourpuss woman seats me at a not so good table but it was ok because there was a ledge there to store my book. Then this young thing comes up behind her. She had on a button that said . . . Hello, my name is xxxx and I am new here. Uh Oh! There was a big table of about 12 nearby. For the rest of the evening, my service sucked. The young thing was obviously distressed because she was continually being directed to the big table by the sourpuss. She was almost in tears by the time she came to bring my check. I reassured her that I understood her situation and that I would take care of "the b****." "Just act all panicked and tell her that the lone lady is actually an employee of the resort company and is here as part of a survey assessing how they treat their guests." I slipped her a $10 bill. (That was a lot back then.) As I settled up at the register with "the b****" I made a point of not adding a tip and writing down her name in my little notebook. I said in a business like tone, "We will deal with this later." So I guess this is a case of not officially leaving a tip. The next morning at breakfast, I was whisked to a beach side table and my coffee cup never went empty. I still chuckle at this one.

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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Bad Service does get remembered!

On our 26th wedding anniversary, I took the wife to wherever she wanted go which in this case was a Good Earth restaurant.

In those days, I ate there for lunch with my fellow co-workers quite a lot of the time. One lunch, the waitress, one I'd not seen before, asked for my ID when I ordered my perfunctory 2 beers (I liked to get them all at once instead of having to wait later for the 2nd one).

I just thought it was a joke and showed her the ID.

A while later, was the anniversary dinner, which I explained to the waitress that it was our 26th.

I ordered my 2 beers, and my wife ordered one. She asked for my wife's ID, but she hadn't brought anything with her. So she decided not to order the beer. Then I asked the waitress if she wanted to see my ID, and she replied that she remembered me from lunch a few days earlier, and didn't need to see it.

Later on when the food came and I never got my 2 beers, I asked where they were? She told me she wasn't going to serve me because I intended to give one to my wife!

I was stunned, as I never indicated that was what I was going to do. I said "Don't you recall that I told you this is our 26th anniversary dinner? What are you telling me that I married my wife before she was born?"

Waitress absolutely refused to bring me even 1 beer saying I would split it with my wife!

Unfortunately for her, being a former published food critic, I happened to know the owner of many restaurants, this being one of them. I called him the next day and told him what happened. He was equally mortified, and asked if I had asked to see the floor manager. I explained that I did, but she was too busy to come over and talk to me, so we left.

I got a $100 gift certificate good at any of his restaurants, a letter of apology from him, a letter of apology from the floor manager, and a letter of apology from the waitress. The waitress' apology didn't ring from the heart but of one that she was "forced" to write!

BTW: at the ThunderBay Grill in the Quadcities, I ordered what was advertised as "Centercut T-bone" medium rare. What I got was the most sinewey, white corded chunk of steak with two pieces of bone (obviously an "end" cut). I could hardly saw through it with the serrated steak knife and it was medium well, not medium rare. I told the waitress that I was unhappy with the steak and wanted to send it back for another. She said she'd have to ask the chef for his opinion on the steak before she could take it back! I was stunned again!

On the way out, the house manager asked how everything was, and I told her very eloquently without getting mad, that I never ever had been told that the chef made the decision's for a customer as to whether the steak was OK or not.

Now, this reminds me of a Greek restaurant in Fridley where we had a dining coupon buy one get one free. I ordered a shrimp cocktail, and the shrimp came out were rubbery, hard to bite through, and just generally disgusting. I sent them back as unacceptable. Later on the waitress came back and said the Chef looked at the shrimp and tried one, and then she kissed her fingertips imitating the chef saying "These are perfect!".

The combination plates that we got later, were sloppy with excess liquid, unedible, and we merely put down the coupon, explained we weren't as hungry as we thought, and left. No tip! And then she argued that she was required to charge tax on the

"value" of the whole meal, not the actual "price" we paid. I told her that was bogus, because tax is a % of money that changes hands. To charge tax on a $20 meal that actually cost $10 was double taxation and illegal. She maintained that they were required to pay state tax on the value of the meal, not the price that they charged. So I paid it and asked for a written receipt. I then sent the receipt to the Department of Taxation for the state, and they wrote the restaurant up for illegal collection of taxes!

Another restaurant charged my credit card, and rounded up the price of the meal. I questioned them that they had rounded "Up" the cost of the meal, and she said "We dont' deal in pennies". I sent a copy of that receipt to the D of Taxation, and they got wrote up too!

Another restaurant house manager in downtown Minneapolis actually got vulgar when I pointed out that they can't charge tax on the free part, and I never met a more mealy mouthed young woman in my life. I wrote her name down from her name tag, and mentioned her by name in my letter to the D of Taxation which I also copied the owners of the restaurant. Turned out she was a principal of the restuarant!!

One time we ate at a Ground Round in Minneapolis. The waiter brought up some appetizers but didn't bother to bring any silverware. All tables were full, and so we tried to get his attention. 15-20 minutes later he shows up with the entrees. I explained that I was unable to eat the appetizers because there was no silverware, and now they were cold and we didn't want them anymore. He said he still had to charge us for the appetizers and left. He still didn't bring any silverware.

So we got mad and got up to leave, and were intercepted by the waiter. I said we found the service to be intolerable and we're leaving. He said you still got to pay. I said, "Like hell I do, and went around him". He then quickly got the manager, and the manager cut us off at the door. I explained what happened and that we were leaving. He kept us there for another 15-20 minutes wanting our name and address so he could send us a free coupon. I told him that I didn't want a coupon, because I wasn't going to return to this restaurant. SO then he writes on his business card that the "bearer is entitled to 2 free meals of their choice" and gave it to me before allowing us to leave. I took the card, got to the door and threw it quite plainly into the cigarette butt container (smoking was still legal in restaurants in Minneapolis in those days!) as we walked out the door. The restaurant is no longer there btw!

And on and on and on and on it goes.....

doc

Edited by deltadoc (log)
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