Best and worst non-French foods in France

[chefzadi]

It's not a question of "acceptible." But, I think it would be hard to make a case that France -- or almost any country, for that matter -- offers the variety and, often, the quality of ethnic restaurants that even fairly provincial U.S. cities (like my own DC) offer.

And, as an aside, I'm sure you've better North African cooking, but I'd be curious to match DC's best Vietnamese, which is one of our strengths, against France's.

Well, DC is The Nation's capital and even though it's small, it's made up of a very global set of visitors.

None of the French people here are arguing that America doesn't have the most variety of cuisines from around the world. What we are arguing is that the reason France doesn't have as much or greater variety of restaurants serving different cuisines has to do with some sort of French closed mindedness and snootiness as opposed to whatever characteristics of those from well ya know citizens of that other country who know so much about 'ethnic' cuisines and cultures and understand all the nuances of say Korean cuisine and Korean culture based on their corner dry cleaner or Mexican for that matter.

[touaregsand]

Yup, my only little point (pretty much off topic from the main point of this thread and in response to your quote in isolation) was that substantially different ethnic food and restaurants in the US are not something that just happened in the last 30 years--in at least some parts of the country. The last 30 years has seen a big upswing in some new ethnic foods such as those from Mexican and different Asian cuisines--and over a larger portion of the country. I didn't mean to compare this implicitly or not with "ethnic food" history or trends in France of which I know very little except what I have been reading from you and others.

Carry on! smile.gif

Mexicans and Asians have a long history in California. More than 30 years. Wow it took us a long time to come such a short way in the eyes of the mainstream.

This thread really shouldn't go further on a food only forum.

(Ludja, I hope you know that I respect your point of view and have always enjoyed your posts. You've always stuck me as an intelligent, thoughtful and fair person. )

[ludja]

Yup, my only little point (pretty much off topic from the main point of this thread and in response to your quote in isolation) was that substantially different ethnic food and restaurants in the US are not something that just happened in the last 30 years--in at least some parts of the country. The last 30 years has seen a big upswing in some new ethnic foods such as those from Mexican and different Asian cuisines--and over a larger portion of the country. I didn't mean to compare this implicitly or not with "ethnic food" history or trends in France of which I know very little except what I have been reading from you and others.

Carry on! smile.gif

Mexicans and Asians have a long history in California. More than 30 years. Wow it took us a long time to come such a short way in the eyes of the mainstream.

This thread really shouldn't go further on a food only forum.

(Ludja, I hope you know that I respect your point of view and have always enjoyed your posts. You've always stuck me as an intelligent, thoughtful and fair person. )

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No harm taken and of course I don't disagree with anything you said--I'm tripping over my words trying to make the one small point that I stated first. Regarding my statement re: Asian and Mexican immigration to the US I only meant that overall in the US there has been a huge increase in immigration from those groups as a *whole* to the US in the last 30 years not that it hadn't existed before in certain parts of the country. I will stop trying to clarify though--this is going off topic as you mention above!

[Busboy]

Yup, my only little point (pretty much off topic from the main point of this thread and in response to your quote in isolation) was that substantially different ethnic food and restaurants in the US are not something that just happened in the last 30 years--in at least some parts of the country. The last 30 years has seen a big upswing in some new ethnic foods such as those from Mexican and different Asian cuisines--and over a larger portion of the country. I didn't mean to compare this implicitly or not with "ethnic food" history or trends in France of which I know very little except what I have been reading from you and others.

Carry on! smile.gif

Mexicans and Asians have a long history in California. More than 30 years. Wow it took us a long time to come such a short way in the eyes of the mainstream.

This thread really shouldn't go further on a food only forum.

(Ludja, I hope you know that I respect your point of view and have always enjoyed your posts. You've always stuck me as an intelligent, thoughtful and fair person. )

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No harm taken and of course I don't disagree with anything you said--I'm tripping over my words trying to make the one small point that I stated first. Regarding my statement re: Asian and Mexican immigration to the US I only meant that overall in the US there has been a huge increase in immigration from those groups as a *whole* to the US in the last 30 years not that it hadn't existed before in certain parts of the country. I will stop trying to clarify though--this is going off topic as you mention above!

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(Immigration patterns and ethnic food in the U.S. rather than France might be an interesting topic in itself)

Not to get too deep into demography here, but to the extent that immigration affects the spread of ethnic cooking but census data shows a more than tenfold increase in the number of Asian-Americans between 1960 and 1999, from 878K to 10.2 million, with their percentage of the U.S. population jumping 700%, to 3.7%. For Hispanics, the population jumped from 6.9M to 31M, and percentage of population from 3.9% to 11.5%.

[DCMark]

Is France different from its European neighbors in this regard? Do Germany, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Italy, etc have a history of embracing ethnic food? I am happy to stand corrected but don't believe so. And I do not mean an Italian restaurant in Vienna as an example.

[chefzadi]

Is France different from its European neighbors in this regard?  Do Germany, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Italy, etc have a history of embracing ethnic food?  I am happy to stand corrected but don't believe so.  And I do not mean an Italian restaurant in Vienna as an example.

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France possibly has more so called ethnic restaurants than it's neighbors.

There are others here who are more qualified to answer about their respective countries.

I do know that in Italy (esp Sicily) there are North African restaurants. And there is the Sicilian tradition of cuscus introduced way back when by the Saracens from Algeria and Tunisia when they colonized the island. There is even an International Cous Cous Fest (Btw, the legend of King Soloman and the Queen of Sheba is wrong, couscous is a Berber invention).

In Spain as I understand it from Vserna there are chefs who are doing contemporary couscous dishes. Apparently there are a few North African restaurants as well.

Anyway, I agree with you I don't think France's neighbors have a history of embracing ethnic food more than the French do.

[pierre45]

Is France different from its European neighbors in this regard?  Do Germany, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Italy, etc have a history of embracing ethnic food?  I am happy to stand corrected but don't believe so.  And I do not mean an Italian restaurant in Vienna as an example.

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LOndon and paris have the most ethnic food in europe.

Indian and lebanese food is 1st rate in london.Indian food in london is much better than in Paris for obvious reasons.Lebanese food however is better in Paris.

[ludja]

I've never eaten "ethnic food" in Austria except for maybe Italian Eis...

Inherently the cuisine has lots of influences from other parts of the old empire--Czech, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Italy and there is also a significant French influence. I suspect there are Turkish restaurants in some places as a result of Turkish immigrants but I haven't seen many in the places I've been.

I've primarily not been in Vienna for long periods of time which would of course have the largest selection of ethnic restaurants, but I have spent a significant amount of time in the second largest city, Graz, which is also a university town. I've seen a few Chinese restaurants spring up there in the last five years or so. There might be an Italian restaurant or so there but I'm not positive...

[Ptipois]

I was just remarking on the reason this topic was started, not making an accusation...I do apologize profusely if you belive that I was insulting the French!  In terms of the latter part of the quote, I was refering to observations made in a book called "Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" written in 2002 by 2 serious journalists about France TODAY.

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Hello Jennahan.

I didn't believe that you were making an accusation and you have nothing to apologize for. But I must confess that I was seriously wondering where you got your observations from, and I now feel relieved to acknowledge that they are not first hand.

It is simply just not true that people from a given region in France feel like they're eating "ethnic" when they're eating a dish originating in another region. This is one of the strangest things I ever read.

It it true that the French attitude towards non-French cuisines has its peculiarities, but not that many in fact, and this is certainly not the way to identify them. The French are not as closed to other cuisines as some believe they are. They are open to some things and more closed to other things, as is every other country.

You know, I have stopped counting the very, very stupid things that get written regularly by "very serious journalists" on the subject of France. Sometimes I'm really at a loss trying to find out where they get their information. The title of this book has already kept me away from reading it. Now I might give it a look, just out of curiosity.

[Ptipois]

And, as an aside, I'm sure you've better North African cooking, but I'd be curious to match DC's best Vietnamese, which is one of our strengths, against France's.

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I'd be interested, but not that curious. I never say no to a good pho, though. But I bet they'd be just as good in DC and in Paris. There are some extremely good and authentic Vietnamese restaurants in Paris and no reason for them to be any less good than the ones in DC. Now, of course, it all depends on the cooks. But I don't think there's a competition here anyway, like "my Vietnamese are better than yours".

I know that some cuisines are just better in other places. It is, for instance, perfectly true that London has much better Indian food than France (guess why ). A good proof of this is that, when a friend of mine finds a good Indian restaurant in Paris, she says "It's just as good as a London Indian restaurant". But concerning Vietnamese food, we fear no one.

Edited July 21, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[touaregsand]

Is France different from its European neighbors in this regard?  Do Germany, Austria, Italy, Belgium, Italy, etc have a history of embracing ethnic food?  I am happy to stand corrected but don't believe so.  And I do not mean an Italian restaurant in Vienna as an example.

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LOndon and paris have the most ethnic food in europe.

Indian and lebanese food is 1st rate in london.Indian food in london is much better than in Paris for obvious reasons.Lebanese food however is better in Paris.

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I've been to London only once for a week. I did notice alot of 'ethnic' restaurants from around the world, but did not get the impression that any of them were represented with any depth. Indian maybe the exception (again for obvious reasons) but as I understand it the food is more Anglocized curries with heavy onion gravies, certainly not representative of Indian cuisines (plural is intentional). There are threads here and elsewhere that discuss this.

Whereas in France, where I've been a dozen times, there is more of a range of North African restaurants from the local coucous joints, touristy belly dancer staffed disco-Riyad, large more 'upscale' places that cater to customers from the source culture, pastry shops, halal butchers that also sell halal charcuterie and places that not only serve cuisine from the different countries of the Maghreb but from different regions as well.

[touaregsand]

Yup, my only little point (pretty much off topic from the main point of this thread and in response to your quote in isolation) was that substantially different ethnic food and restaurants in the US are not something that just happened in the last 30 years--in at least some parts of the country. The last 30 years has seen a big upswing in some new ethnic foods such as those from Mexican and different Asian cuisines--and over a larger portion of the country. I didn't mean to compare this implicitly or not with "ethnic food" history or trends in France of which I know very little except what I have been reading from you and others.

Carry on! smile.gif

Mexicans and Asians have a long history in California. More than 30 years. Wow it took us a long time to come such a short way in the eyes of the mainstream.

This thread really shouldn't go further on a food only forum.

(Ludja, I hope you know that I respect your point of view and have always enjoyed your posts. You've always stuck me as an intelligent, thoughtful and fair person. )

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No harm taken and of course I don't disagree with anything you said--I'm tripping over my words trying to make the one small point that I stated first. Regarding my statement re: Asian and Mexican immigration to the US I only meant that overall in the US there has been a huge increase in immigration from those groups as a *whole* to the US in the last 30 years not that it hadn't existed before in certain parts of the country. I will stop trying to clarify though--this is going off topic as you mention above!

←

(Immigration patterns and ethnic food in the U.S. rather than France might be an interesting topic in itself)

Not to get too deep into demography here, but to the extent that immigration affects the spread of ethnic cooking but census data shows a more than tenfold increase in the number of Asian-Americans between 1960 and 1999, from 878K to 10.2 million, with their percentage of the U.S. population jumping 700%, to 3.7%. For Hispanics, the population jumped from 6.9M to 31M, and percentage of population from 3.9% to 11.5%.

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Yes it is an interesting topic. Please start the thread.

Look where most Asian-Americans live.

[John Talbott]

Sunday’s New York Times Magazine contained an article by Amanda Hessler called “Bleu-Plate Special” in which she stated that according to Louviers-based American cookbook writer Susan Herrman Loomis (“Cooking at Home on Rue Tatin,”) Maghrebian and Southeast Asian food fused with French cooking have become “near-standard.”

[chefzadi]

Sunday’s New York Times Magazine contained an article by Amanda Hessler called “Bleu-Plate Special” in which she stated that according to Louviers-based American cookbook writer Susan Herrman Loomis (“Cooking at Home on Rue Tatin,”) Maghrebian and Southeast Asian food fused with French cooking have become “near-standard.”

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I read that article. I'm impressed that an American woman living in France knows the term "Maghreb" in relation to food/culture. She must keep up on things Maghrebi or read these forums. It's a subculture term in France.

[SuzySushi]

Sunday’s New York Times Magazine contained an article by Amanda Hessler called “Bleu-Plate Special” in which she stated that according to Louviers-based American cookbook writer Susan Herrman Loomis (“Cooking at Home on Rue Tatin,”) Maghrebian and Southeast Asian food fused with French cooking have become “near-standard.”

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I read that article. I'm impressed that an American woman living in France knows the term "Maghreb" in relation to food/culture. She must keep up on things Maghrebi or read these forums. It's a subculture term in France.

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Hmmmn... the way I first became familiar with the term "Maghreb" was through a cookbook I picked up last time I was in France, La Cuisine du Maghreb, subtitled, Spécialités du Maroc, de la Tunisie et de l'Algérie by Hilaire Walden. Interestingly, the book was published by a German publisher and translated into French from an original title called North African Cooking!

[chefzadi]

Yes, Hilaire is a spokeswoman for *us*

The Maghreb was one big ole country a coupla thousand years ago.

Sunday’s New York Times Magazine contained an article by Amanda Hessler called “Bleu-Plate Special” in which she stated that according to Louviers-based American cookbook writer Susan Herrman Loomis (“Cooking at Home on Rue Tatin,”) Maghrebian and Southeast Asian food fused with French cooking have become “near-standard.”

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I read that article. I'm impressed that an American woman living in France knows the term "Maghreb" in relation to food/culture. She must keep up on things Maghrebi or read these forums. It's a subculture term in France.

←

Hmmmn... the way I first became familiar with the term "Maghreb" was through a cookbook I picked up last time I was in France, La Cuisine du Maghreb, subtitled, Spécialités du Maroc, de la Tunisie et de l'Algérie by Hilaire Walden. Interestingly, the book was published by a German publisher and translated into French from an original title called North African Cooking!

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