Random Kosher Questions

[rooftop1000]

Going back a page to the mention that because of extended daylight in the summer Saturdays dinner may be considered part of Shabbot does that mean Fridays doesnt have to be because its well before sunset?... just being literal here ...because if you are observant you probabley arent looking for ways to get around the rules anyway.....

grew up in an extremly Waspy/Italian Catholic area

tracey

[cakewalk]

...because if you are observant you probabley arent looking for ways to get around the rules anyway.....

tracey

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Oh of course not.

Basicly, Shabbat is from Sundown on Friday to Sundown on Saturday. One is supposed to eat three meals on Shabbat, all of which include bread so the proper blessings can be said. This is usually dinner on Friday night, lunch on Saturday, and a third meal late Saturday afternoon, towards the end of Shabbat. (It has to start before sunset, but can continue until after sunset.)

When the summer months roll around, many people (especially those with little kids) will start Shabbat early on Friday nights. So, for example, they'll light the candles and have the Shabbat dinner at, say, 5 pm instead of after sunset, which might be 9 pm. But the point is that you are "increasing" the sanctity of Shabbat by starting earlier, and you are doing this deliberately so that you can have the Friday night meal on Shabbat, because that is one of the things that defines Shabbat (so to speak.)

Food is a biggie on Shabbat.

[Pam R]

Bumping this in an attempt to remind Zilla to share her story

[sparrowgrass]

I don't know nuthin' bout kosher, but I do know my eggs.  A blood spot has nothing to do with embryos--a fertilized egg has a tiny white "donut" shaped spot on it for the first 2 or 3 days of incubation, then it develops a network of blood veins, very different and distinct from the little blood spots found in supermardket eggs.  Think "bloodshot eyeball" and you will have a good picture of a yolk with a 3  or 4 day old embryo in it.

If your eggs are "USDA grade A", they should have no (or very few--sometimes one slips by)  bloodspots, because USDA grade A eggs are candled to remove bloodspots.  Check for the USDA shield--grade A can be printed on any package, but the USDA shield is only on inspected eggs.

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That is interesting. But then what are the bloodspots? Are they just lesions of some sort?

It's interesting to hear that the eggs are candled. I always thought this was a defunct Jewish occupation. In Yiddish, the person who does this is called a "kindler," and it was actually done with a candle in bygone days. Eggs with bloodspots were destroyed. I always thought of this as a particularly Jewish thing, and that the "profession" ended with modernization.

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Nope, USDA graded eggs are all candled--blood or "meat" spotted eggs are removed, and used for animal feed or for liquid eggs, used in baking. Blood or "meat" spots come from the reproductive tract of the hen-- a slight injury might leak some blood which will then end up inside the egg. A "meat" spot is a tiny bit of reproductive tract flesh that tears off and gets incorporated into the white of the egg.

Some candling is done by human eyes--eggs roll over a big light table, and someone grabs the ones that have spots, or double yolks, or other defects. In big new plants, this is done electronically.

When I worked for USDA, the plant I inspected produced Eggland eggs. A rabbi came in periodically and inspected the place, because the Eggland eggs were kosher. When I inspected the Eggland runs, one bloodspot disqualified the whole run, and they had to be candled over again to be certified.

I don't know anything about the Canadian system--you might call your department of agriculture to see if they have a similar grading system.

Fertilized eggs in a hatchery are also candled, to check on the embryos, and to discard eggs that aren't fertile. When I incubate a batch of eggs, I candle them after 5 or 6 days of incubation, and I can see the little chick--it shows up as 2 black dots--the eyeballs!

[anzu]

I've been meaning to ask this question for some time.

Fundamentally, I want to know how separate 'separate' is when talking about meat and dairy.

Perhaps this would be approached most easily simply by narrating the incident that prompted this question.

A few years back, a supermarket close to where I lived began stocking a very small selection of kosher products in the refrigerated section (earlier no such products had been stocked). They only had about a foot of space, though, and dealt with the space restriction by piling a lot of stuff together.

Some of the food that was all jumbled in together was meat products, and cheese. Both were wrapped very thoroughly in plastic.

Now, I understand that it's the cooking of meat and dairy that is a problem, but seeing meat and dairy all mixed together like that really got me wondering if someone who kept kosher (their intended customers!) would actually have found this acceptable.

So, okay or not okay?

[Gifted Gourmet]

If the items are wrapped as you mentioned, thoroughly, there is no problem. Grocery stores often have to restock and put things into their proper places. But "wrapped" is the operative word here!

[Susan G]

Tell me about the process of cleaning for Passover, and is smoke from a burned feather used? WHat purpose does it serve?

[Gifted Gourmet]

The feather is not burned .. it is used to sweep the bits of chametz from around the house during bedichat chametz (the person doing this ritual before Passover begins hold a lit candle to "find" the chametz bits and sweeps them into a paper bag or knapkin to be burned right before Passover starts).. wait .. how about if I let a authoritative website explain better on this?

a much more detailed explanation of this ... and here

The search should be conducted by the light of a candle, in order to look in all the nooks and crannies. If the candle might cause damage, such as a carpeted area, one may use a flashlight.     There is a custom that ten pieces of chametz are "planted" in the rooms to be searched. If you hide ten and find nine, just keep searching! The ten pieces remind us of the ten plagues.

[Rehovot]

I'm really clueless about kashrut, but I need to make sure I know what's ok when I have observant friends over.......Is it ok to serve the following things together at an after-dinner meeting? That is, are they all kosher individually...and/or does having a random assortment of combined snack/dessert things violate an aspect of kashrut?

Cake (kosher), crackers, nuts, dried fruits, non-dairy creamer, coffee, tea, sodas, juices.

Anything you'd add? Or subtract?

[Gifted Gourmet]

Is it ok to serve the following things together at an after-dinner meeting? That is, are they all kosher individually...and/or does having a random assortment of combined snack/dessert things violate an aspect of kashrut?

Cake (kosher), crackers, nuts, dried fruits, non-dairy creamer, coffee, tea, sodas, juices.

Anything you'd add? Or subtract?

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If they all are under kosher supervision and are either parve (neutral) or dairy, there should be no problem. Presumably, none would contain meat .... I have often served these for an after-dinner meeting with no problem! Bon appetit!

[jackal10]

Depends entirely on how orthodox your guests are.

The ultra-orthodox will insist the foods are in their original packaging, as your plates and cutlery may not have been ritually cleaned after touching non-kosher food; cups and glasses may be a problem. I guess you could use disposables.

Those subscribing to the foodie religion will frown on the non-dairy creamer, prefering fresh milk or cream...

[Pam R]

Those subscribing to the foodie religion will frown on the non-dairy creamer, prefering fresh milk or cream...

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If you were using disposables, you could probaby have both - kept in their original containers and let people take what they want.

For those subscribing to the religion religion, the non-dairy creamer is a g-dsend.

Edited July 10, 2005 by Pam R (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

Those subscribing to the foodie religion will frown on the non-dairy creamer, prefering fresh milk or cream...

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Kind of reminds me of this thread:

click here

Can a foodie keep Kosher?, And, what will the kids say?

[jackal10]

I was trying to make the not very good point, and maybe start a discussion that foodies subscribe to a set of beliefs (fresh = good, manufactured=bad; foam = good, starch based sauces= bad) that are in their way just as irrational and received belief based as any religion.

They go to temples (called restaurants) to worship, and listen to prophets (media chefs), to have their beliefs re-inforced...There are sacred rituals (decanting wine with a candle, for example), and special festivals ( first seasonal foods and drinks)

Maybe this should be a seperate thread, if anyone wants to take it up

Edited July 10, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[Susan G]

wait .. how about if I let a authoritative website explain better on this?

a much more detailed explanation of this ...

Thanks for the link, Melissa!

[Gifted Gourmet]

Thanks for the link, Melissa!

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Pleasure is all mine .. I never hold myself out as an expert on such weighty matters as religion .. there are far too many resources who can say it better, more concisely, and with more authority than I possess ...

They go to temples (called restaurants) to worship, and listen to prophets (media chefs), to have their beliefs re-inforced...There are sacred rituals (decanting wine with a candle, for example), and special festivals ( first seasonal foods and drinks)

Maybe this should be a seperate thread, if anyone wants to take it up

Jackal, this has real potential, in the right hands ... you not game for it?

[Rehovot]

Those subscribing to the foodie religion will frown on the non-dairy creamer, prefering fresh milk or cream...

Right...but I thought there was a problem with milk, for those who will have had a meat dinner less than 2 hours earlier.......... Guess I'll just offer both.

Thanks for the help, everyone--

[rooftop1000]

I just noticed something in the Mexio forum about cheese making, and the use of rennet......does that make a cheese not kosher?

It is essentially dropping meat into milk...?

tracey

[Gifted Gourmet]

It is essentially dropping meat into milk...?

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Exactly! Which is why kosher cheeses are made with a vegetable rennet ... also good for vegetarians ...

[Fresser]

Thanks to the wonders of modern gastronomy, such delicacies as Bac-o-Bits and kosher "shrimp" now grace our grocery aisles. How closely these kosher foods mimic the taste of their treyf progenitors, I don't know. Still, something about them bothers me.

So, with apologies to Montesquieu, I ask: do these kosher substitutes violate the Spirit of the Laws? And if kosher "shrimp" does indeed taste nasty, is this a sin in and of itself?

We now return you to our less Talmudically scheduled programming.

[RachaelN]

If it earns a kosher label, then I guess the decision has already been made.

A lot of the kosher pizza places in LA are all offering soy-pepperoni now…so they don’t seem to have a problem with it. Then again, I wonder how much of that they sell. Like you said, it still sorta smacks of being wrong.

Beyond just being kosher, it does fill a niche for some people (like some with shellfish allergies) though, and that makes it worth having available.

[Fat Guy]

My two cents: kashruth is to a large degree binary. Something is kosher or it isn't. The spirit of the law doesn't really enter into the equation.

One should be careful when viewing ancient ideas through modern lenses. Montesquieu, writing in the 18th Century, is coming at things from a modern perspective. The laws of kashruth, for their part, are decidedly un-modern. Indeed, orthodoxy rejects the notion of reasons for the laws of kashruth altogether -- it's about obeying the law, not finding the reasons behind the law.

Thus, if one were to say that, historically, pork was a high-risk food because of trichinosis, but that this is no longer a threat, and that Jews should therefore be free to eat pork because the law no longer has its underlying justification, no orthodox person would find that argument the slightest bit compelling -- you'd just be demonstrating ignorance by trying to argue it, because it's beside the point.

Orthodoxy is likely much more concerned with the issue of mistaken appearance. For example, although there may be some sealed, packaged items in conventional fast-food restaurants that are kosher (an individual package of carrot sticks, whatever) most orthodox people in North America and Europe will not be seen eating in a McDonald's or the equivalent because of the fear that, if an identifiably Jewish person is seen dining at McDonald's by ignorant people, they might assume McDonald's is kosher. (In Israel and one or two other countries, where they have actual kosher McDonald's restaurants, the situation is a little different.)

At the same time, there is a lot of ignorance about food out there. For a long time, mayonnaise was rarely seen in observant Jewish homes because it looked like dairy. I think most Jews just thought it was dairy. They didn't join online culinary arts societies and start topics "What's in mayonnaise?" They just made an assumption and probably didn't think about it very much. You still see vestigial suspicion of mayonnaise in Jewish culture. It makes some people uncomfortable.

Take, also, the example of margarine. If you're going to say, oh, I won't eat tofu cream cheese with a meat meal because it just feels wrong, you're going to have to address why every orthodox person in the universe seems to use margarine as a butter substitute in a thousand recipes.

The way I see it, if the Orthodox Union certifies Bacos as kosher, you have to be more orthodox than the Orthodox Union to say that's not good enough.

[Fresser]

At the same time, there is a lot of ignorance about food out there. For a long time, mayonnaise was rarely seen in observant Jewish homes because it looked like dairy. I think most Jews just thought it was dairy. They didn't join online culinary arts societies and start topics "What's in mayonnaise?" They just made an assumption and probably didn't think about it very much. You still see vestigial suspicion of mayonnaise in Jewish culture. It makes some people uncomfortable.

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Pow! This implied "dairyness" is why I always thought it was such a mortal sin to put mayonnaise on a corned beef sandwich. Once during lunch at a Hillel house, shivers went up my spine when a lunch-mate squirted mayonnaise on his roast beef sandwich. He looked at me quizzically and said, "What's the matter? Mayo is parve (neither meat nor dairy)."

For a long time, mayonnaise was rarely seen in observant Jewish homes because it looked like dairy. I think most Jews just thought it was dairy. They didn't join online culinary arts societies and start topics "What's in mayonnaise?"

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This is a red herring*, given that online media and discussion boards are barely ten years old. Information is spread much more efficiently now than in the nascent days of noshing.

Not that there's anything wrong with herring.

[markk]

For a long time, mayonnaise was rarely seen in observant Jewish homes because it looked like dairy. I think most Jews just thought it was dairy. They didn't join online culinary arts societies and start topics "What's in mayonnaise?"

So my first thought (after "I remember that") was, "so, why didn't they just read the label?", and then I seemed to remember that putting all the ingredients on a food product label may be a somewhat recent thing? Did it start (by law, of course) at some point in the last 60 years?

[cakewalk]

I've never known Jews to shun mayonnaise. They just don't eat it with meat (even though they can.) Because it's white. Like milk. And sour cream. And who would put that on a roast beef sandwich?

As for the kosher "shrimp" stuff, I really don't understand it. Yes it's kosher, but obviously it's not shrimp, I don't know what they use -- flounder? Whatever. And they shape it into shrimps, at least the stuff I've seen. So what's the point of calling it shrimp? I really don't get it. But to each his own I guess. And bacos -- is there anything in it that is not chemical?

As for the margarine/tofu cream cheese conflict, I think maybe it's just a matter of time. Most observant homes that I've been to have no problem serving Tofutti after a meat meal. I've never eaten tofu cream cheese, but if it does actually have the taste of cream cheese that might pose some difficulty -- not religious, but taste-wise -- because the combined tastes of meat and cheese are so foreign.

Anyway, kashrut is far from binary, which is why we have so many different types of hechshers (kosher certifications), and so many people accepting this one but not accepting that one. Yes, yes, I know it has a lot to do with politics. But the point is those are the things that make up the overall world of kashrut, like it or not, and so if kashrut matters to you then calling it binary is way too simple. And the spirit of the law does indeed play a role. To a large degree kashrut is not just about the food, it is about creating an environment. It is not a black and white issue.

Soy pepperoni, yikes. We are so inventive!